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The questions to Boeing was not in reference to the decal being on other aircraft. personally, I would expect a different part number. I simply gave a possibility the computer seeks out words like a Google search engine does when they don't have a part number. just because they won't tell us doesn't mean a known customer or well known company won't get better service.

Boeing was asked if it was on the outside of the fuselage or on the outside of the rear bulkhead door. he responded that it was indeed by the rear door and was a interior decal? that's in the stairwell...

 

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2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

You are the one who stated it could of been from a 707 or a 737...nobody else has made that claim. companies that sell placards give those planes the possibility. not Boeing. 

Clearly, you are confused and did not read my post.

I stated what many of the parts lists indicate for the Hick's placard part number.

Until we have the facts we can't eliminate those as possibilities.

You are assuming that the companies just added those models. They might have, you don't know.

I don't 100% eliminate possibilities (myth busted) based on assumptions, you seem to have a history of it. It is not rational.

If we get the facts, we can eliminate it.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

The questions to Boeing was not in reference to the decal being on other aircraft. personally, I would expect a different part number. I simply gave a possibility the computer seeks out words like a Google search engine does when they don't have a part number. just because they won't tell us doesn't mean a known customer or well known company won't get better service.

Boeing was asked if it was on the outside of the fuselage or on the outside of the rear bulkhead door. he responded that it was indeed by the rear door and was a interior decal? that's in the stairwell...

 

What is your point?

It was near the Aft Door on the 727..  that includes that optional access door and tells us zero about a 737.

 

I covered all this is my post.. 

We need to determine exactly which plane models and 727 variants that decal was on, exact location and whether NORJAK even had that decal/system.

 

You seem to have a problem with that?

 

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Caution: The handrails must be stowed before retraction. The use of standby system from either panel will bypass the handrail and lower-ladder safety circuits. Note that the NG has an red covered EMERG switch underneath the airstairs for emergency retraction, this also bypasses any safety circuits.

 

NO HANDLE ...only 120 with rear stairs before switching to the front..

Edited by mrshutter45

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Caution: The handrails must be stowed before retraction. The use of standby system from either panel will bypass the handrail and lower-ladder safety circuits. Note that the NG has an red covered EMERG switch underneath the airstairs for emergency retraction, this also bypasses any safety circuits.

 

NO HANDLE

We aren't concerned with retraction..

 

You are trying to prove a negative, you can't.. I already looked into this.

You don't know all the options and variants for the 737 Aft Airstairs.

 

The only way to solve it is to contact Boeing.. and get a plane model and variant list for that part number.

Edited by FLYJACK

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

doesn't matter. the emergency operation is a red switch. it bypasses safety circuits. they would overheat if used more than 3 times in 20 minutes. 

 

The retraction is in reference to the handrail....

On that system the handrail is manually attached at the top after airstair is lowered.. it has to be manually detached before retraction.

That is the emergency retraction. Of course the retraction is electric.

 

 

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A unique airstair design was used for the aft doors of 737 Combi aircraft, which consisted of a clamshell door which dropped down to open much like a business aircraft, but then had stairs which were stored trifold in the curve of the door, which would unfold to the ground. This system was very cumbersome, was very susceptible to damage, and thus has been removed by many of its users.

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Just now, mrshutter45 said:

A unique airstair design was used for the aft doors of 737 Combi aircraft, which consisted of a clamshell door which dropped down to open much like a business aircraft, but then had stairs which were stored trifold in the curve of the door, which would unfold to the ground. This system was very cumbersome, was very susceptible to damage, and thus has been removed by many of its users.

yes, but it was new in the 70's..

There were even instances of it popping open..

I tried to eliminate this thing as a possibility and couldn't.. you just can't prove a negative.

 

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

A lot were removed due to failure out of the 120 which narrows it down further. they don't drop like the 727 stairs when released. they don't have a free fall fail safe option. the Hicks placard doesn't fit in anyway shape or form..

They do drop.

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I can't argue much more about this...they drop only after coming forward and not downward as the 727 allows in a single motion. it's a free fall operation only known to the 727. not sure about the DC9. the 737 or 707 doesn't have this nor is the 727 electric in any manner...I first thought it was possible but no longer agree...

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I can't argue much more about this...they drop only after coming forward and not downward as the 727 allows in a single motion. it's a free fall operation only known to the 727. not sure about the DC9. the 737 or 707 doesn't have this nor is the 727 electric in any manner...I first thought it was possible but no longer agree...

True, the 727 airstair is different, the 737 folds out but you make an error..

The Hick's placard is generic and says nothing about freefall..

 

Emergency Exit Handle, Aft Airstair to Operate, Open Access Door, Pull on Red Handle. Lock Wire Will Break When Handle is Pulled.

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you are missing the point...the 737 stairs are not going to free fall outward as a emergency option. too many moves. the 727 has one move...that's straight down. they are not electric. they free fall. they don't have multiple ladders, just one. I fail to see where a wire handle would release the stairs on a 737. it just doesn't have the option to fall out of the side of the aircraft. 

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Again, the emergency handle is attached to a wire system. this releases the stairs. the 737 does not have the option to just fall out and work.

 

The airstair assembly and the airstair door are powered with 115/200 VAC, 400 Hz, 3-phase power source located on the aircraft. The airstair installation and the airstair door may also be operated with a power source of 24 to 28 VDC.
Airstair assembly consists of two rigid beams connected to the ladder assembly, which also consists of the steps, hand-rails, lights, and wheels that allow the airstairs to seat firmly on the ground when extended. This is what extends from the carriage assembly to the ground for entering or exiting the aircraft.

 

It's like saying there is no difference between a starter on a lawnmower vs a pull handle...

Edited by mrshutter45

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48 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Again, the emergency handle is attached to a wire system. this releases the stairs. the 737 does not have the option to just fall out and work.

 

The airstair assembly and the airstair door are powered with 115/200 VAC, 400 Hz, 3-phase power source located on the aircraft. The airstair installation and the airstair door may also be operated with a power source of 24 to 28 VDC.
Airstair assembly consists of two rigid beams connected to the ladder assembly, which also consists of the steps, hand-rails, lights, and wheels that allow the airstairs to seat firmly on the ground when extended. This is what extends from the carriage assembly to the ground for entering or exiting the aircraft.

 

It's like saying there is no difference between a starter on a lawnmower vs a pull handle...

yes, the 737 airstair does fall open.. it just has a fold in it. It s an emergency exit, it needs to have the option of opening without power.

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Doors are on both sides of the aircraft. the passengers and crew all got out with limited injuries. the 727 is safe as long as the wire is connected and no damage to the stairs to prevent it from free falling. 

During the evacuation, the slides at the forward entry (L1), forward galley (R1) and the aft entry (L2) doors were used. The overwing exits were not used. One passenger sustained a broken leg during his descent on the slide at the aft entry door.

 He returned to the cockpit and noted that the fire department equipment had arrived. An unsuccessful attempt was made to lower the airstairs at the main entry door. The auxiliary power unit was not started because of the lack of information regarding damage to the airplane.

Edited by mrshutter45

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The lock wire is a safeguard on the handle. once you pull the handle it will release the stairs. it also does some damage and they will no longer lock. it's a simple straight down gravity system. one single action releases them. the 737 is electric and the stairs come out of the plane from the side straight outward and then unfolds as they go down. if the APU is not engaged or is damaged the stairs will not work. the 737 has lots of escape doors with no interference to escape from. two front side doors, doors over the wings and one aft side door. no pulling of a handle will release them. 

The placard was found years later and it can't be proven it's in the original location from the evening of the hijacking if the placard came from 305. the odds have increased that it was from 305. it's an interior placard that was placed by the read door. that's the pressure door leading to the stairs. most know the controls are also by the rear door outside of the cabin.

I don't have the placard/decal/marker yet. it's in transit. I'm interested in how tough it is in order to help determine how it came off the wall and was in the condition it was when it was found. it's extremely light and would drift far greater than a briefcase or parachute. without really knowing it's original location makes it hard to really use in the investigation IMO. 

 

 

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ExitPlacardFront.jpg

Edited by mrshutter45

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I don't know if NWO was trained in reference to the emergency option. when you open the door for the normal stairs it hides the emergency panel. the Yap accident is not the only one with poor training on the operation of the stairs. just finding the placard on a jet has been a challenge. none to date. the opening of the rear stairs during a fire can be hazardous as well causing a backdraft. might of been the best thing for that accident that they didn't open..

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The FBI noticed it "missing after the flight test, not before"

"could have dropped off any passing Boeing 727"

"could have dropped from the plane during re-enactment..six weeks later"

"known to fall off on the runway"

 

The new FBI file states that there was also a test 2 days after NORJAK and decal(s) came off..

Is the FBI lying or not?? They had the blueprint location.. why say this..

 

Maybe the Boeing guy got it wrong and found decal BAC27DPA-182, instead of BAC27DPA-152.. it was also an emergency airstair decal/marker on the interior control panel but not the same as the Hick's placard.

 

placardquestioned.jpeg.1c6cb53c0922ccb37a160773c7287b13.jpeg

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10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

I don't know if NWO was trained in reference to the emergency option. when you open the door for the normal stairs it hides the emergency panel. the Yap accident is not the only one with poor training on the operation of the stairs. just finding the placard on a jet has been a challenge. none to date. the opening of the rear stairs during a fire can be hazardous as well causing a backdraft. might of been the best thing for that accident that they didn't open..

We haven't even confirmed that NWA 727's had the emergency airstairs option..

Look for the early NWA 727-100 safety card not the 727-200 one, I found only the front page...

s-l1600-12.jpg.a3853b3818d61e9b0d8b066e9044b9ed.jpg

 

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