47 47
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

Additional info..

The Hick's placard text "OPEN ACCESS DOOR",, the 727 internal emergency release instructions is to remove access door. It detaches completely. The exterior has an access door.

Further, Northwest employees took the plane out 2 days after the hijacking to check out the pressure bump. They noticed decals had come off and speculated that they may have come off in a similar fashion with NORJAK.

 

This doesn't make sense, if the decals came off during NORJAK they would have to be replaced in the two days to fall off again. That would have been noted and known.

The plane was inspected in Reno and nobody noticed any missing decal.

twodaytest.jpeg.26d13cdc6621dc905aeaa7d3fa4e74f5.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BParker said:

Ok.  He was second to last to board? How did he get the seat he wanted?  What if those seats were taken, would he have just called this thing off?

The plane was fairly empty so he had lots of seats to choose from. Later, the stews moved everybody further up toward the front.

 

Hahneman first flew from NY to PA to hijack another plane he thought had a light passenger load and less chance of Air Marshals. 

Cooper may have selected 305 for the same reasons.. light passenger load and less likely to have Air Marshals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The plane was fairly empty so he had lots of seats to choose from. Later, the stews moved everybody further up toward the front.

 

Hahneman first flew from NY to PA to hijack another plane he thought had a light passenger load and less chance of Air Marshals. 

Cooper may have selected 305 for the same reasons.. light passenger load and less likely to have Air Marshals.

When you say he had lots of seats to choose from., didn't he need a seat in the far back so that there was no one behind him?  Seems to me that he would have had a specific seat picked out, and by boarding at the end he was risking not getting to sit where he wanted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As other Cooper folk have found out here and there, I am not easily swayed by baloney

 

Au contraire mon frere, there has been plenty of "baloney" that you were easily swayed by. We don't need to revisit those things, but they are all on these pages for anyone who wants to see for themselves.

As for miss Denise, it's not as simple as she's either lying or she's not. You like to make it out to be that simple, but the reality is a little more complex. It's more a case of me not trusting her memories than it is me thinking she is lying. Plus, when people start coming around asking about Kenny and Bernie, it's easy to remember something and make it out to be much more than it was. For example, she has this random memory. She has no way of remembering if that random memory was before or after the hijacking. If you say she can remember that, I'm calling bullshit on that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What assumptions am I making Robert? I'm simply saying that I don't trust a 40 plus year old memory, especially where fine details are concerned.

I'm 53 years old and I can remember quite a few things from my childhood, some things better than others. I also remember where I was and what I was doing when the news hit that Elvis had died. However, I can't tell you if any of the things that I can remember were before or after Elvis died. That's too damn long ago to be able to do that. 

Also, Shakespeare was an idiot, so his thoughts about me would not concern me a great deal.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clear a few things up regarding the placard. Boeing has been contacted and the decal/placard/marker was not on the outside of the aircraft the location was outside by the pressurized bulkhead door. that's the stairwell. it has adhesive on the back as I suspected.

Several have been ordered and some of us will be receiving one shortly thanks to Eric. he also contacted Boeing...

 As far I know the controls are in two places in the stairwell and two places under the fuselage. the stairs has a large box with a door leading to a stick or handle for the normal release. the emergency handle is behind a small panel you pull off to access the handle to release the stairs if they don't go down..

The exterior has a door by the strike plate to access the controls. one is a lever for normal functions and then a pump handle to operate the stairs if the hydraulics fail. a larger rectangle placard is clearly visible on the door under the fuselage. the aircraft has two hydraulics (A&B) the stairs operate off of hydraulic B. 

Why the FBI stated what they said in the newspaper is not clearly known. perhaps they assumed when NWO told them it "was outside by the rear door"  thought it meant outside on the fuselage. another thing not clear is the lack of documentation surrounding the missing placard. this is only documented after the find in 1978. they believe it came off during testing that occurred on January 6, 1972 but go further saying they were not sure. that would imply two placards were put on 305 after the hijacking...

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The placard/decal is NOT a heavy plastic nothing. it weighs next to nothing. even if Cooper tossed the chute at the sametime the two would be miles apart. it's very similar to what I suspected being like a bumper sticker...how it got off the wall is not known at this time. I doubt pressure would cause it to come off..

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

apparently, you don't read very well? I've documented exactly what is going on.

1) Confirmed the placard goes in the stairwell

2) Established it's weight.

3) Explained the controls.

4) Explained the different placards.

5) It's not an exterior type placard even thought the stairs are considered outside they are protected.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is how you investigate things. it's very boring and time consuming. the myth is busted that it goes outside or on another aircraft. the myth is busted it was heavy. the odds increase that it's from 305, not conclusive but greater. 

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hand pump is irrelevant, they all had that. How is the myth busted that it could be from another aircraft??

 

I have to give credit to Eric Ulis for contacting Boeing..

"He just called back after about two hours of research and stated it is an interior placard affixed on the inside by the aft door.”

Unfortunately, I have to take it back for his abuse of critical thinking..

We still don’t have enough info to claim the Hick’s placard came from Cooper. 

The 727 series has an aft entry and aft exit door (rear side)…  which one.. we’ll assume the rear but this needs clarification.


There are still some issues that need to be sorted.

 

The new info from FBI files..

The Hick’s placard part number is Boeing BAC27DPA152 … listed for (707, 727, 737) 

A NWA crew took the plane up for testing 2 days after the hijacking and claimed they lost decal(s).

A second decal was found which according to NWA employees is 99% the same type from a NWA 727, we don’t know which decal this one is.

 

The facts:

The FBI claimed the Hick’s decal could have fallen from any passing 727 or from the test two days later. They have more info than we do, why make that claim??

The 727 passenger variant has two different emergency airstair systems and at least three different decals. The normal system doesn’t match the Hick’s placard text and that decal is a different part number, you push the main lever outward. The other is an optional separate emergency release mechanism. This one has an outer door with finger holes which is completely removed, that decal does not match the Hick’s placard. Behind that door is a flange which is broken off to access a red handle which is pulled inward. That almost matches the Hick’s placard but not exactly. the Hick’s placard says "open access door” all documentation says “Pull door inward. To release stairs, break plastic flange and pull red handle." 

We don’t know which system the NORJAK plane had and we don’t know which 727 variant had the Hick’s placard type. It does not match the normal system and isn’t a perfect match for the optional system. These are the only two systems documented for commercial passenger 727’s. There were many other 727 variants.

The Hick’s placard has tear holes in the corners. No internal decals found have those holes.. including the other emergency release decals.

First, we need to determine which plane variants had that decal, where exactly they were located and how they were mounted. 707?, 737? and whether the Norjak plane had that decal type and exactly where it was mounted..

Second, the FBI comments are odd and inconsistent. If the plane was tested two days later and some decals came off, for them to come off during NORJAK they had to be replaced and that would be noted. They claim the decal may have come from that test?

It is a light decal, vinyl/plastic. (Why the tear holes?)

 

Conclusions..

 

There are several possibilities, 

The Hick’s placard type was never used on the NORJAK 727 variant and came from another 727 variant or perhaps a 737. (had an optional side aft airstair)

 

If NORJAK did have that decal type..

The Hick’s placard came off during the test two days later.

or

The FBI is lying to protect confidential info that only Cooper would know. The FBI docs do not indicate any missing decals or access panels in Reno after inspections. If NORJAK had that decal the only place it would be is behind the outer optional emergency access panel..  it would be attached to a flange inside which is completely removed to access the “red handle”. Perhaps, Cooper did pull the optional emergency system and the FBI is hiding that info. If he did then the placard would have been attached to a plastic break away panel slightly larger than the decal. That would mean the decal came out of the plane attached to a "heavy" plastic panel. This was my first “guess” regarding the Hick’s placard. However, the FBI would have to be lying here as they would know if the emergency handle cover was pulled or accessed.

 

and as I previously pointed out,, Eric and Robert’s placard drift calculations were self serving garbage..

My calcs were a drop at 2-3 ft/sec, that is for the decal only, no plastic panel and the range accounting for the decal possibly missing 1/3rd from altitude..  the wind direction and speed at that location is not known contrary to Eric and Robert’s assertions. It is a guess and the variable assumptions involved make a drift calculation meaningless. If it were still attached to the panel then descent rate changes dramatically.

 

Eric and Robert will continue to spin this into an alternate flight path narrative, none of the placard evidence indicates that, NONE.

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The stairs on the 707 and 737 are electric..and not aft..perhaps you should call Boeing to find out why they say the placard goes on those planes. actually, it's the parts companies and not Boeing making this statement. it could be as simple as word reference. the emergency door panel on the 737 is noted as the "overwing emergency exit handle" which is very similar to the Hicks placard. even with the door down under the fuselage no Hicks placard is visible. the placard suggests it's something that will release under weight or pressure. the electric stairs are not hydraulic or free falling. pulling any type of wire mechanism will not cause any electric stair to release. 

I'm going to check but I believe Hominid said the emergency access was also inside the box for the normal stair release. . I've seen plastic and metal boxes..

 

Boeing also stated it's not an exterior placard..

Door down is reference to accessing the stair release from the ground.

Edited by mrshutter45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

 

The stairs on the 707 and 737 are electric..and not aft..perhaps you should call Boeing to find out why they say the placard goes on those planes. actually, it's the parts companies and not Boeing making this statement. it could be as simple as word reference. the emergency door panel on the 737 is noted as the "overwing emergency exit handle" which is very similar to the Hicks placard. even with the door down under the fuselage no Hicks placard is visible. the placard suggests it's something that will release under weight or pressure. the electric stairs are not hydraulic or free falling. pulling any type of wire mechanism will not cause any electric stair to release. 

I'm going to check but I believe Hominid said the emergency access was also inside the box for the normal stair release. . I've seen plastic and metal boxes..

 

Boeing also stated it's not an exterior placard..

Door down is reference to accessing the stair release from the ground.

Wow,, lots of assumptions there, I thought you were a facts only guy.

 

The 737 combi did have optional aft airstairs, the side rear door. They were called "Aft Airstairs"..

4831.jpg.65476ad716672e41ba1f4e3d5c94d02b.jpg

the "overwing exit" you refer to is not related to the 737 optional "Aft Airstairs".. misfire,, 

It isn't myth busted,, not yet. We need more work here.

s-l1600-11.jpg.548ffecb597bd28fa2ccbf5ecbd2e5d8.jpg

The "normal" emergency exit was in the main box on many 727's but it wasn't a "pull on red handle", it was a push the main lever "outward".. all documentation indicates it is integrated into the main handle and is pushed out.  It had a different decal/text and different part number from Hick's. The part number is actually one digit different. ..-182 not 152..

 

101_0753.jpg.50fb6c169c926352c1b80b33ca6a36bf.jpg

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's a word reference the computer might pickup. it's not meant to be related to the stairs. the wording is related to other placards. 

You don't know that, you are assuming. It may be true or not.

You don't bust a myth with assumptions.. 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

even if the placard was inside the the fuselage under the plane it would require the panel to be left open...a large placard is on the outer door...

exterior.png

I am not suggesting this...

 

If NORJAK did have the Hick's decal "type" and it did have the optional emergency release system it would have to be behind the removable emergency door with the two finger holes. There is another break away panel behind it. Clearly, the Hick's placard does not match the outer decal.

Point is, this isn't settled. We need more work here.

I have found at least three different emergency release decals/part numbers for 727's, there may be more. We still don't even know which one the NORJAK plane had. 

 

727EMERGRELDOOR.jpeg.413bb2e5805b396ce37acfcfd30e1542.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Boeing states it was in the stairwell....why is this a problem? 

I don't have problem but you seem to be confused.

They said inside the AFT door on the 727. That panel is inside the AFT door.

Boeing never said anything about a 737... if it is used or not.

 

I guess you never read my post on the matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

47 47