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DB Cooper

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7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Oh, okay. I get it now. There are so many hijackers...LOL I forgot for a moment he was the one who jumped over Honduras and dodged the cops for a while. 

Well...same parameters apply. For your guy to be Cooper, not a single print taken from Flight 305 that the FBI still has on record can belong to Cooper. Otherwise, they would have figured it out by now. 

There is just no other possibility here. If any of the so-called viable prints the FBI says they believe belong to Cooper...really ARE Cooper's...Hahneman would have been identified long ago as Cooper. And sure...it is possible none of the prints belong to Cooper. But it has to be that way, for sure. 

It was kicked around in 1987, started to implement in 1990, and no later than 1995 fingerprint digitization both on state and Fed levels had been pretty much implemented. As the computers got faster and the software improved, the searches went from hours or a day, to less than an hour. A partial history from Princeton:

https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1991/9141/914104.PDF

The FBI investigated Hahneman for years (at least) after he was caught for his hijacking. That indicates his whereabouts Nov 25/71 could not be determined and the FBI was not entirely convinced the prints were from Cooper.

McCoy's prints did not match and they continued to investigate him, Calame and Rhodes still think he was Cooper. Rackstraw's fingerprints did not match and they continued to investigate and pursue his palm prints.

Logically, matching the prints would include but not matching does not exclude. The eight unidentified partial prints are not confirmed to be Cooper's.

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5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Official Announcement Regarding any 'DB Cooper' Event Sponsored by AB of Seattle for 2020:

Read closely, because I am only going to say these things once - 

  • Any decision regarding sponsoring such an event must have input - and interest - from known people in Cooperland, and that interest MUST be sent to us by February 15, 2020 or we cancel any idea of organizing such an event. 
  • The reason for this is because in order to sponsor an event like that on the scale we would like to do, we will have to invest not only the few thousand dollars we receive by February 1 on the Cooper movie option, but some additional funds from the AB accounts as well. 
  • Should little or no interest in such an event reach us by that date, we will spend that money on something else. I want to be upfront about that. We have plans for that money that include improving the gear on our DB Cooper Campouts, should no interest be shown in a bigger event done indoors for 2020. 
  • If interest IS shown by people in Cooperland, we will invite some of you to join not only the Planning Committee for the event, but to participate actively as well, such as being speakers, presenting short films, and the like. 
  • If you're wondering why we decided on this approach, it's because we already wasted mucho time and effort on an event for 2019, and that event (in our opinion) was deliberately torpedoed by EU so that he could charge people $15 bucks a ticket for his upcoming Vancouver, WA event. 
  • However, even after all of that, EU is not necessarily banned, nor will he be excluded from a possible 2020 event by AB...but he should play people straight this time, and deal with them in a realistic manner. 
  • We have decided that such an event should be FREE to the public, with no entry fee. 
  • There are a few built-in parameters that are non-negotiable. These include a Cooper Character Lookalike Contest with Amazon gift cards as prizes. Nobody participating in speaking, presenting short film, or on the Planning Committee will be eligible for these prizes, which are restricted to the general public. 
  • We will bring 'headliners' to the event, in an effort to generate attendance from the general public. 

If there is little or no interest in such an event, we will move on to improving the gear for our Cooper Campouts, which have been successful for the most part, and there will be no hard feelings toward anyone in Cooperland. 

EDIT: In order to ensure everyone is informed on this subject, a copy of this post was sent to several known folks in Cooperland. My suggestion is everyone give this proposal careful thought and provide your responses to it sometime after Christmas. 

So, it's on again? You owe me 10 bucks.

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27 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The FBI investigated Hahneman for years (at least) after he was caught for his hijacking. That indicates his whereabouts Nov 25/71 could not be determined and the FBI was not entirely convinced the prints were from Cooper.

McCoy's prints did not match and they continued to investigate him, Calame and Rhodes still think he was Cooper. Rackstraw's fingerprints did not match and they continued to investigate and pursue his palm prints.

Logically, matching the prints would include but not matching does not exclude. The eight unidentified partial prints are not confirmed to be Cooper's.

And there's the problem. No prints or DNA that you are certain are Coopers. How else are you going to put someone on that plane? 

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23 minutes ago, ParrotheadVol said:

And there's the problem. No prints or DNA that you are certain are Coopers. How else are you going to put someone on that plane? 

Witnesses would have to say it was him to be able to put him on the plane, or finding evidence that would indicate he was on the plane (took something from the plane that day, took a picture after Tina left and went to the cabin and before he jumped).  Without fingerprints or DNA, it is tough.  Would any witness even remember what he looked like 50 years later?

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56 minutes ago, BParker said:

Witnesses would have to say it was him to be able to put him on the plane, or finding evidence that would indicate he was on the plane (took something from the plane that day, took a picture after Tina left and went to the cabin and before he jumped).  Without fingerprints or DNA, it is tough.  Would any witness even remember what he looked like 50 years later?

They may remember a certain feature or characteristic, but I would be highly skeptical of anyone giving a positive ID this many years later of someone they saw only on one occasion.

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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1 hour ago, ParrotheadVol said:

And there's the problem. No prints or DNA that you are certain are Coopers. How else are you going to put someone on that plane? 

Of course, we as "amateur sleuths" aren't in a position to put somebody on the plane, the FBI couldn't even do it.

But, there are two standards to this case, the "legal" standard and the "public" standard. The FBI's role was to bring a case to the Prosecutor not to publicly solve it. We don't even know if they ever did or not. 

IMO, there is only one way for a 100% solve and that is a real long shot..

Present a suspect so compelling that the FBI does a NEW modern DNA test on the tie and compares to relatives.

 

Hahneman died before the DNA stuff and it currently isn't good enough for familial analysis..

 

I said it before, the case for Hahneman is by far the best I have ever seen by a long shot, a perfect match, short of the forensics which we have no control over.

The fact that he was erroneously branded a copycat, he was investigated for years, his name is unnecessarily redacted in FBI files, he is a perfect match for Cooper, my FOIA battle and nobody (besides me) knows really anything about him suggest that he was a serious suspect who was never eliminated and the FBI wants to hide him from public scrutiny. We have lots of info on McCoy and Rackstraw, nothing on Hahneman yet he is a far better fit for Cooper.

How can we have somebody who matches the Cooper description and profile near perfectly, committed a virtually identical hijacking and know nothing about him from the FBI or media??

 

and, if you read the FBI files it is noted in the 70's that witness memories were already fading...

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Some questions about Hahneman and his Honduran adventure (just out of curiosity)...

 

Do you know:

What kind of parachute he jumped.

Where did he get it (did he bring it or did he ask for it).

What kind of terrain did he land in.

How much money did he get.

Why did he turn himself in.

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20 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Some questions about Hahneman and his Honduran adventure (just out of curiosity)...

 

Do you know:

What kind of parachute he jumped.

Where did he get it (did he bring it or did he ask for it).

What kind of terrain did he land in.

How much money did he get.

Why did he turn himself in.

Hahneman requested chutes, I can confirm the equipment came from Andrews AF base, but haven't confirmed the model. He was an air crewman in the US military.

He landed in the Honduran jungle at night jumping from 9000 ft out the rear stairs of a 727. He sustained slight injuries and walked 10 miles to a road into a small town.

He officially got $303,000.

Four weeks later, he turned himself in after his identity was publicly revealed and being hunted by military and others in Honduras looking for the $25,000 reward. He consulted with friends and family before turning himself in, he requested to be brought back to the US. He could have stayed in Honduras as there was no extradition process at that time.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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23 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

An extensive study of the hijacking problem was released in 1972. Runs 178 pages and covers quite a bit about them. For serious researchers only, I would guess. 

You can find (and download it if you wish) HERE in PDF. 

Thank you for posting this Mr. Blevins. I find chapter 1 page 5 extremely interesting. I believe a lot of what is mentioned could possibly be attributed to the db case. What do you think?

 

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10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Danger from guns and bombs, etc? Sure, I suppose. Recently, I've been amazed at the sheer number of hijackings that were actually going on back then. 

I liked the end of page six and into page seven...where they have become so common that the Eastern Air Lines VP lists all those facts for pilots:

Just cooperate. Fuel is available from the Navy in Boca Raton, Florida if you're going to Cuba...

A Swiss embassy member in Cuba will probably be at the Havana airport when you land. 

Here are the frequencies and other details for Havana Airport..

The Cubans have been through this many times before...blah, blah, blah. 

I thought it was sort of funny that so many hijackings were going to Cuba that an entire system had been set up between two countries basically hostile to each other. 

Although the mention of bombs, imprudent passengers (drunken passenger on 305), might be a reference to the db hijacking, that is really not what caught my attention. I am referring to the following statement , "There is always the danger that the hijacker could insist on diverting the flight beyond the range of the aircraft's fuel supply. This could result in ditching, a crash landing or an emergency landing at an airport without the required length for the aircraft involved."  I believe this statement is in direct relation to the db hijacking.

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With the new placard information in the FBI docs, Eric Ulis is using pretzel logic to make it fit his sketchy alternative flightpath narrative.

 

Background... the Cowlitz Sheriff claimed (assumed) the Hicks Placard was from the NORJAK plane, however the FBI soon walked that back, it came from the outside and could have come from another plane. They fall off all the time.

 

Eric Ulis falsely claimed as a fact, the Hicks placard was from NORJAK.


The new FBI doc confirmed that two placards were found. A second placard from behind the grassy knoll is in play. 

The Hicks placard found in Novemeber 1978 was part number BAC27DPA152 which came from the outside of the plane. BAC27DPA152 is listed for a 707, 727 and 737. The part number was updated to 1397VRW in 2001. 

 

NOTE, the placard states “AFT AIRSTAIRS” not ventral. aft airstairs can refer to either ventral or rear side built in airstairs. The 737 had an aft airstairs option (side rear).


That “Hicks" placard could have come off any 727 or 737 on V-23…

 

The font used for the Hicks placard is a later Boeing font, the part number may be the same but it is likely a later printing with the slightly updated Boeing font. That suggests it came off a plane after NORJAK.


The other Placard was found May 2 1979 by a logger in North Skamania County which is far East of the flight path. There is no part number or ID given for this placard.

July 31, 1979 ( Two Employees ) Northwest Orient Airlines, Minneapolis International Airport, was shown an airplane decal recovered in the State of Washington advised that there is a ninety-nine per cent chance that this decal came from the same aircraft hijacked by D. D. Cooper.

_____ noted that the decals placed on the aircraft are red in lettering and that the one recovered in Washington and displayed to him appears to be more maroon.

When the employees claimed a 99% chance they do not mean 305, they mean a 727.. (same aircraft). This is the nature of 302’s they aren’t facts they are summaries of interviews.

Eric Ulis is spinning this to claim the Hick’s placard is 99% from NORJAK, the FBI files don’t say this, NOT EVEN CLOSE. First, they are referring to the second placard not Hicks and they have no way to determine which plane it came from. They are claiming that the placard shown is 99% consistent with the NWA 727 but we don't even have a description of that second placard.

These placards fall off in normal operation according to NWA employees, there is no evidence that either one is confirmed from NORJAK. It is possible, but extremely unlikely.

 

Takeaway..

FBI 302's are NOT facts, they are summaries of opinions.

The Hick's placard part number matches a 707, 727 and 737.

Placards fall off these planes in normal operation and there is no way to confirm which plane (or model) it came from.

 

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It is officially called a marker.. it does not match the internal 727 one on the emergency door.

 

PMA Details BOEING BAC27DPA152

Part Number: 1397VRW
Part Name: Marker-”Emergency Exit Handle”
Replaced Part Number: Boeing BAC27DPA152
Approval basis: Identicality per FAR § 21.303(c)(4)
Models: Boeing (707, 727, 737 series)

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Not so fast. There is an exterior emergency release system on the 727..

The FBI docs and FBI media report say it came from outside of the aircraft.. 

FBI,, it could have come off any 727 plane.

and the part number BAC27DPA152 is shown for a 707, 727 and 737... 

Anybody want to explain that? Remember, it states "AFT AIRSTAIRS" the 737 had an optional "AFT AIRSTAIR" the rear port side.

Further, it doesn't match the interior "marker" for the 727 optional emergency release.

They did use similar markers on the outside.

It is consistent with the type on the outside of aircraft. Airline ground crew noted that they fall off all the time in normal conditions.

 

727 emergency release access door and marker. Has two finger holes in it.

1206259035_placardcccopy.jpeg.e78efb90392c4b19c4c531ee15c6bb2f.jpeg

 

 

FBI walks back Cowlitz Sheriff claim.

placardquestioned copy.jpeg

 

Example of exterior marker.

727_06.jpg

 

Hicks Marker/727 panel/NORJAK panel open (STAIR CONTROL marker).. note the font is different on the Hicks marker. It is a later Boeing font.

placarddoorstaircontrol.jpeg

 

Example of an exterior marker 727

25538404566_730eacd2c8.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 minute ago, RobertMBlevins said:

As we can see from your pictures, notices posted on the OUTSIDE of aircraft are either GLUED down or peel-and-stick types. There are no fasteners, because if you used fasteners, wind would get underneath them and rip them away in short order. 

This does not match the found placard, which is described as heavy plastic and obviously had a rivet, or some other fasteners holding it down. Looking at the upper right corner of the found placard, you can see some type of fastener was used, and that's why the small corner piece is missing. 

I have presented an extensive article at Quora today about all this.

It is not heavy plastic,, that is a media exaggeration. Those "holes" do not match any interior marker's either, they may have nothing to do with fastening the marker but  are fasteners for something under it.

You make a logical error.

The part number lists a 707, 727 and 737.. if it was on another plane it may have been placed differently, the 737 had optional aft airstairs (side). Assuming that the Hicks placard only came from a 727 is an error which forces a false conclusion.

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It isn't thick plastic, Hicks folded it and put it in his pocket.. the FBI refers to it as a decal,,, it was a thin plastic decal. The holes are strange though they couldn't have been to secure it.

at 18.14 in video

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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51 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Well, okay. Still doesn't explain how the placard, or notice, or whatever you wish to name it...has a reference to pulling the handle. I'm pretty sure that the stews didn't pull the handle themselves from the inside after a landing, but that the door was opened from the outside by people on the ground. 

Since the placard mentions a wire being broken if you pull the handle, then you have to find out whether this wire would be broken by opening the door from the ground from outside, and not just the inside by stews or in an emergency.

If not, the placard came from the interior of the jet, and could have only departed if someone opened the stairs from the inside. 

 

Some early 727's had a separate optional emergency release system, that system was accessed via a removable access door with the two holes in the pic I posted, that marker does not match the Hicks placard, wrong shape, wrong text.. There was also an emergency release system on the outside of the 727.. The problem is these optional emergency release systems were removed from North American Commercial jets so it is extremely difficult to find an image of one.. to confirm.

Later 727's and retrofitted early ones had the emergency release integrated into the main control handle. The newer emergency release does not match the Hick's placard type or text instructions..

I posted an image of the main control panel and it does not match either.

There is nothing to indicate that Hick's placard "type" came from inside a 727. The FBI claimed it matched one located on the outside the aircraft and it could have come from any 727, they wouldn't say that if it came from inside. The ground crew also stated that they fall off in normal operating conditions.. why say that if from inside.

While I can't confirm it came from outside (still looking), all the evidence indicates it was not located inside on the 727 unless we find some new evidence.

Further, the Hick's placard may have come from a 737 with AFT AIRSTAIRS.. we don't know.

727safetyarda1 copy.jpg

placardcc copy.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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Also, nothing was noted missing after inspecting the plane in Reno.

But, the FBI files state that the plane was taken out two days after the hijacking to test the pressure bump and "decal(s)" went missing.. this appears to be a different event from the drop test in January. However, it could be another FBI reporting error...

 

image044.jpg.d0e94a2d39cf9b83b57df3401e078d49.jpg

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2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I still say the Hicks placard may be valid...if only for a single reason. The placard mentions the wire that will be broken (and then must be replaced) if you follow the instructions on it. It's tricky because yes...this sort of warning COULD be mounted on the outside of the aircraft as well. 

This is almost as bad as the Tina Bar money issue. :| *Reaches for the Excedrin. Again.*

**********************

On a non-Cooper note, most of the questions I get at the Q and A website Quora are intelligent ones. Some are NOT so smart. One guy asked me if we are getting close to the technology used for time travel in the Back To The Future trilogy. He was serious. 

Really? :D I answered him with the stuff below, and then uploaded a quick video that I made especially for him:

 

Robert-who operated the stairs just before the plane took off and then who did it when it landed?  The ground crew or the stewardesses? 

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I'm not an expert, it'll be interesting to see what the ones at Quora come back with, but from what I do know about aircraft, the breakable wire on the handle simply indicates that it's an emergency use handle, not the normal operations handle.

Edited by dudeman17

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Warner needs to do his own homework... and stop cheating off others.

 

Hick's "Marker" part number from FBI,,  BAC27DPA152 (707, 727, 737), new number 1397VRW

placardpart.jpeg.aabd82474fd3435c1777981837226989.jpeg

 

Dec 6 1978 FBI had the location of the "Marker" on a blueprint.

placardblueprint.jpeg.fcfe8c0a9c8df074f6a32f91587d1cb1.jpeg

 

January 19, 1979, 

"The FBI, however, said the placard, posted on the outside of the jetliner, could have dropped off almost any 727 that flew over southwest Washington during the past eight years."

The FBI had the blueprint location of the placard.. They would not make that statement if they knew the "placard" came from inside the stairway. 

2124860443_placardquestionedcopy.jpeg.d45148d897e99c03f9d147af1bff1a35.jpeg.104126a29a35506914c2a11a1ac442fd.jpeg

 

The 727 rear airstair panel decals without the earlier separate emergency system. This emergency system was built into the main lever.

101_0753.jpg

 

Hick's marker does not match the earlier interior 727 emergency system decals or the later ones.

Edited by FLYJACK

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8 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Okay. 

But you will have to determine whether an EMERGENCY release existed on the outside of the aircraft, one that warns the wire will be broken. Because that is part of what it says on the placard. 

You have to determine if the emergency release control was also accessible from the OUTSIDE of the aircraft. If not...then the placard came from the inside somewhere. Without an exterior emergency release, there would be no need to install such a placard (like the one Hicks found) on the exterior of the jet. The words 'emergenccy' and 'break wire' are tells. 

Yes, there was a second emergency release on the exterior.

NO, I haven't found the matching decal.

 

727, later version.

727_33-1.jpg.606d3314266e4009cecd4c1e82240d37.jpg

1744141838_727_472.jpg.3dbe05a49c37e95ec31834e031de4235.jpg

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12 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

An excerpt from THIS NTSB report about a 727 that missed the runway and crashed into the jungle on the island of Yap, which is somewhat near Guam. From 1980, I think. Shows that the stews DID have a 'regular' method of dropping the stairs, plus an emergency system should the hydraulics fail. (All survived) This was a Continental Airlines flight, and the report notes that stews were trained in using the normal release method, but not the emergency method:

The NTSB report also notes that Continental actually used a mock-up of the airstair release system to train stews how to use it. This indicates to me that yes...it was probably a stewardess who released the stairs (normal mode) when deplaning. After this accident, Continental stews were given additional training on how to use the emergency release system as well. 

I've read that Cooper knowing about how the stairs worked meant that he had inside knowledge of the 727.  If the stewardesses operated the stairs, then how would his knowledge be so uncommon?

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3 minutes ago, BParker said:

I've read that Cooper knowing about how the stairs worked meant that he had inside knowledge of the 727.  If the stewardesses operated the stairs, then how would his knowledge be so uncommon?

He didn't have airstair knowledge, Tina showed him how to operate them. The FBI files note that exit instructions were sent to the plane..

Cooper had aviation knowledge, not 727 knowledge.

 

The plane loaded in Portland via the rear airstairs, Cooper was the second to last to board.

No indication who closed them but they are usually closed from outside by ground crew.

Exit instructions were sent to the plane. Cooper opened the rear airstair and the plane landed with the door partially open and dragging. 

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3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He didn't have airstair knowledge, Tina showed him how to operate them. The FBI files note that exit instructions were sent to the plane..

Cooper had aviation knowledge, not 727 knowledge.

 

The plane loaded in Portland via the rear airstairs, Cooper was the second to last to board.

No indication who closed them but they are usually closed from outside by ground crew.

Exit instructions were sent to the plane. Cooper opened the rear airstair and the plane landed with the door partially open and dragging. 

Ok.  He was second to last to board? How did he get the seat he wanted?  What if those seats were taken, would he have just called this thing off?

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