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DB Cooper

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I have a question. How exactly did those airstairs work? I know their intended use on the ground, they lower to the ground and people go up or down them into or out of the plane. But when they were lowered in flight, would they hydraulically lower into a fixed position, or would they hang loose and move up and down with the varying airflow, factored by their weight? The reason why I ask this is, there's an integral part of this case that's never made sense to me. And that's the idea that the pilots would 'feel' it when Cooper jumped. I fly in much smaller, lighter, less powerful planes than a jetliner, and when one person jumps, you don't feel it. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when somebody launches off it into a Triple-Lindy. Now, if those stairs floated up and down freely, and were light enough, so that when Cooper ventured out on them they lowered with his weight, then recoiled back up when he left, then I could see the pilots feeling that. But if they were in a relatively fixed position, then not so much.

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(edited)
25 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I have a question. How exactly did those airstairs work? I know their intended use on the ground, they lower to the ground and people go up or down them into or out of the plane. But when they were lowered in flight, would they hydraulically lower into a fixed position, or would they hang loose and move up and down with the varying airflow, factored by their weight? The reason why I ask this is, there's an integral part of this case that's never made sense to me. And that's the idea that the pilots would 'feel' it when Cooper jumped. I fly in much smaller, lighter, less powerful planes than a jetliner, and when one person jumps, you don't feel it. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when somebody launches off it into a Triple-Lindy. Now, if those stairs floated up and down freely, and were light enough, so that when Cooper ventured out on them they lowered with his weight, then recoiled back up when he left, then I could see the pilots feeling that. But if they were in a relatively fixed position, then not so much.

Drops by gravity, wind held them up but Cooper's weight helped push them down. When Cooper jumped the wind pushed them back up.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

The tie:  

There are semi horizontal lines (as worn) of "particles" on the tie...

These aren't random but suggest a sideways wiping... it looks consistent with Cooper using the tie to wipe prints from the plane. Most of the particles were used in the 727 (inc CP TI), some of the particles may have been picked up in the plane if Cooper used the tie to wipe prints from surfaces.

I can't see how you would get those "line" patterns so high above the tie "clip/pin/tack" on the tie during normal wearing/use. Those lines look like a series of rub/wipes.. at a similar semi-horizontal angle..  and none vertical..

 

 

Tie-Composite1-enhanceda.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The tie:  

There are semi horizontal lines (as worn) of "particles" on the tie...

These aren't random but suggest a sideways wiping... it looks consistent with Cooper using the tie to wipe prints from the plane. Most of the particles were used in the 727 (inc CP TI), some of the particles may have been picked up in the plane if Cooper used the tie to wipe prints from surfaces.

I can't see how you would get those "line" patterns so high above the tie "clip/pin/tack" on the tie during normal wearing/use. Those lines look like a series of rub/wipes.. at a similar semi-horizontal angle..  and none vertical..

 

 

Tie-Composite1-enhanceda.jpg

One of the most irresponsible and dishonest Cooper characters continues to undermine the advancement of this case by lying.. to discredit others.

I wrote "some of the particles may have been picked up in the plane if Cooper used the tie to wipe prints from surfaces"

NOT "So, he says, particles on the tie probably all came from the plane"

 

Never, ever trust anything this guy says.. 

 

Georgerlie.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

If this were the case. no prints would be found. you need to verify things like this before even posting them since none of us have a background in science or forensics. the plane has been cleaned hundreds of times. I seriously doubt that's where the particles came from. 

Not true, at all.

The prints have never been confirmed to be from Cooper and he may not have wiped everything (if he did use the tie to wipe prints).

My statement is 100% accurate. If anyone can actually read.

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10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

wiping down the area would leave zero prints. doesn't matter who's they are. none would be found...they can usually tell when area's have been wiped clean. 

False, you are using weak assumptions to reject a possibility. Bad logic.

You have no idea where they got all the prints they have or where they didn't find any.

How many did they get from the Lav?? How many were Cooper's??

 

My statement is 100% valid. Your 100% rejection is irrational, you just don't know.

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It's not false. they would obviously concentrate on where Cooper was on the plane. in and around the seat, the bathroom, the railing on the stairs etc. if no prints were found in these area's they would know someone wiped them down before they got on the plane. not a whole lot of places prints would show. no reason to even go towards the front. he had no purpose being towards the front. the tie wasn't even kept in the extended position. it was folded for years. that could also be the marks. might of even had gloves on past the point of Tina going up front and then using the interphone. he could of, but didn't, used one of the towels on the back of the seat. unless he put it back the same way. toilet paper was handy, perhaps paper towels in the bathroom. again. no prints would of been found if he wiped down the area. I think the 302 explains places checked. 

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The plane would be considered a breached crime scene. who knows when it was last cleaned and how many people sat in his seat, went to the bathroom, exited the rear stairs etc. prior to Cooper boarding. the prints they have had to be checked by everyone known. I don't believe they were even certain on the cup since several were in the bin.

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13 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It's not false. they would obviously concentrate on where Cooper was on the plane. in and around the seat, the bathroom, the railing on the stairs etc. if no prints were found in these area's they would know someone wiped them down before they got on the plane. not a whole lot of places prints would show. no reason to even go towards the front. he had no purpose being towards the front. the tie wasn't even kept in the extended position. it was folded for years. that could also be the marks. might of even had gloves on past the point of Tina going up front and then using the interphone. he could of, but didn't, used one of the towels on the back of the seat. unless he put it back the same way. toilet paper was handy, perhaps paper towels in the bathroom. again. no prints would of been found if he wiped down the area. I think the 302 explains places checked. 

I didn't realize you had such inside knowledge and know for a fact that prints were obtained from all surfaces and the FBI confirmed no area was wiped. Of course you don't, you are assuming. Prints aren't that easy to get..

 

We do know by his actions that Cooper was concerned about leaving prints.

There are semi-horizontal lines of very concentrated particles on the tie both above and below the pin/tack. They don't appear consistent with folding.

Cooper removed the tie and left it behind.

Logically, a concentration of particles was smeared semi-horizontally across the tie many times.

 

I am only suggesting that those lines look to be formed from many wiping actions. Considering Cooper removed and left the tie and was concerned with prints that is a very good explanation.

 

Do you have any other possibilities for concentrated particles to form those lines??

Either the tie wiped an object with a concentration of particles or an object with the concentration of particles was wiped on the tie (semi-horizontally) many times, this seems less likely given the location of the lines.

 

What type of object contact could form those lines of particles?

 

 

 

 

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They would of mentioned in the 302's that it was apparent someone tried to clean the scene or wipe prints. the phone would be clean giving very solid proof attempts to cover were made. around the rear door would be things like the railing and the door that opens for the release of the stairs. smears should be found were hands were moving and not leaving good viable prints. finding nothing would lead one to believe it's been wiped. very logical. no trace of anything in the back of the plane would give obvious conclusions. 

prints.png

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26 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

They would of mentioned in the 302's that it was apparent someone tried to clean the scene or wipe prints. the phone would be clean giving very solid proof attempts to cover were made. around the rear door would be things like the railing and the door that opens for the release of the stairs. smears should be found were hands were moving and not leaving good viable prints. finding nothing would lead one to believe it's been wiped. very logical. no trace of anything in the back of the plane would give obvious conclusions. 

prints.png

Nonsense, 302's are incomplete and that ASSUMES they even recognized a "wipe". You should know that by now.

 

Smudged prints found...

smudgeprints.jpeg.54f15606f6ba57da6de330a003e45b31.jpeg

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1 hour ago, mrshutter45 said:

this is not worth any discussion...and with that, I'm out....

Sure..

 

not proof, but interesting

 

Richard Tosaw -

"The agents were hopeful that they would find some fingerprints on the aluminum staircase railing or on the handle that lowered the staircase. But the prints that they found were too smeared to be identifiable

Calame and Rhodes -  

p. 122:

"Two days later, 26 November 1971, (SAC) Red Campbell received a teletype from the FBI headquarters, confirming their educated appraisal about the smudges: 'Finger prints found on Flight 305 of no value.’"

p. 124:
"No matter how you cut it, one of the Salt Lake agents said, from here on out that bunch in Reno will either have to hang together and stonewall it - or come up with some pretty sophisticated explanations why they let the Reno City police dust that plane for prints, and why those damn magazines never got sent back to the FBI Fingerprint Division."
 

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It's not easy leaving a good print. smears often occur. the hand is always moving and will cause the print to smear. I see it often when I go to recycle centers and have to give my thumbprint. it's easy to smear even trying not to. 

we are presently discussing several contacts with Cliff Ammerman trying to get to the bottom of the flight path. lots of things I've said have been confirmed at least through Ammerman..

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Nobody knows where Cooper jumped. even Rat stated that. what he said later contradicts his statements soon after the hijacking. 

Ammerman was one of the radar controllers monitoring the flight. Flyjack posted a page from a book published in 2010. the discussion has grown since. to date it's believed he was R2 from the radio transcripts. these are things I like to discuss vs shills or making video's about someone else's video's that were removed a month ago. 

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Robert, public forums are just that. public. that means everyone can post on them. Eric owns the video's and can do what ever he wishes with them. he can delete them, he can move them or add to one that's existing. you wish to play ruler of the Cooper forums on what is right and wrong. I don't think anyone cares. it's amazing how it once again becomes my fault or problem for the removal of someone else's property. you are a walking/breathing National Enquirer. you could also pass for the gossip lady on In Living Color. once again, the only one complaining is you. then you have an agenda to joke about them even after there removal, why, what purpose does this have? this is a highlight of a camping trip. just more proof of living in the past. yesterday's news. but headlines with RMB. you removed your forum from public view. should I make a two month long promotion followed by a video joking about it? what if it's true that someone asked him to remove them for now. now what? this is all childish BS. any polls from the public against horrific wrong Eric has done. holy crap. he removed his video's. he should be shot, or possibly burned at the stake. those damn video's with low views, my god. this is a tragedy worthy of more video's and possibly National PUBLIC awareness commercials. word on the street has it that Eric has a couple photo's he might take down. that's a scoop to run with now before it happens. don't let it go. 

I'm thinking of removing a couple dead threads. think the public will riot? 

Please Advise.....

Edited by mrshutter45

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52 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

You didn't answer the question:  Do you believe that whatever this Ammerman guy says now will verify the flight path currently supported by...and posted up with pictures...at the FBI's main website?

This stuff has to do with Cooper. your far to busy with Eric and how things should operate on the internet. why should you care about the case in general? same old stuff, right. you can look for yourself and stop the block issue. remember, you told me you changed IP's a while back. 

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(edited)

You have the worst bias than anyone in any room. you constantly bring this stuff up over and over and over. like the V05 commercial..and so on and so on..awareness, harping is more like it, or even having an agenda fits. 

This as usual is going nowhere.....good luck with the "awareness" thingy.. 

Going back to actually discussing DB Cooper. 

Edited by mrshutter45

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(edited)
10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Flyjack says in part:

May I suggest an alternate theory? The tie was held in storage by the FBI for decades prior to being released to the Cooper Sleuths. It was handled (with gloves) by FBI agent Larry Carr. It was undoubtedly handled by other agents early-on after the hijacking as it was processed for evidence. In the years following, who KNOWS how many people handled the thing?

It is also possible that these things you indicate...could have come simply from FBI agents handling and examining the tie over the years. 

Just a thought. Look...even if Cooper used the tie to wipe prints, does it really matter that much? FBI has said previously they were able to get at least SOME prints, and that perhaps a half-dozen of them may have come from the hijacker. But if Cooper had no criminal record, and they never latched onto the right guy as a suspect long enough to get his prints...THEIR prints would have done no good. On a side note, anyone investigated after 1975 who also happened to be in the Army between certain dates, had an 80% chance of their detailed military records being destroyed in that huge fire in St. Louis:

One of the things that makes me believe Cooper had no prior criminal record is because when Carr re-opened the case (more or less) with the public, that by this time in 2008...if the FBI actually DID have a few good prints they thought were Cooper's...they could have run those through the NCIC and the FBI databases and looked for a match without having to try and do it manually. If Cooper had a record, or at least a PRINT they thought was Cooper's was matched to a human being on file that had a record...they would have a suspect. But because no one in the FBI ever announced such a thing...any search like that must have come up a zero. Ergo...any viable prints they MAY have had were not matched to a criminal record. 

I can't see how marks like that come from handling the tie..

but those "contact" marks indicate a method of particle deposit and may indicate how at least some of the particles got on the tie.

The tie was manufactured in 1964 and likely sold in 1964/65 the accumulation of particles are likely from many environments.

 

They have some partial prints but nobody knows if it was Cooper.

Many agents claim the prints are of no value but they were used to eliminate suspects.

Strangely, McCoy didn't match but some agents still think he was Cooper.. 

 

EDIT: The semi-horizontal lines (as worn) are clear in the UV image I posted...
 

The particles aren't entirely random, there are unique semi-horizontal contact patterns that tell us something. I am only suggesting that using the tie to wipe a surface is a good possibility based on other evidence.

 

expand the image.

Tie-Composite1-enhanceda.jpg.aebc12a9343e1910b922a0624b10f4d8.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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Latent print is a term they use while obtaining prints. some prints you can actually see and those are called patent prints. latent prints can't be seen without the aid of powder.

"No fingerprints of value were found on any of the latents thus obtained" this is in reference to the prints lifted from area's inside the plane. the prints that were found were initialed by agent Stousland. it doesn't mention the two plastic cups. this might be were they got his palm print I've seen reference too. if he held the cup inside his hand from palm to fingertip a good print could of been made. not sure how he allowed this to happen after asking for everything else back. it's possible no prints of value were found in the area's mentioned not including the cup. about 10% of fingerprints taken from crime scenes are of any value. 

Prints are hard to get with no smears. doorknobs usually smear. the seat area appears to only have the armrest to obtain any prints. the rest is fabric. the pressurized door was opened and locked by Tina. Cooper used the phone last along with the stairs and could of had gloves on after Tina was sent up front. this leads back to the cups again. 

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