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DB Cooper

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7 hours ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC's decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.

Visit the Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/DBCooperChannel

 

 

I don't know any of the details about what went on (I'm just a skydiver mildly interested in DB Cooper), so excuse me if what I say is so obviously contradicted by the known details.  But I'm curious why you assume he didn't use his own rig?

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes, particularly when jumping into unknown terrain at night. Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing. And I would have also thought about a tracking device being hidden inside.

So why ask for parachutes? Could be because he assumed they'd put in a tracking device, and he would toss that out 50+ miles from where he actually exited so that any search would focus on where he wasn't. And/or use some or all of the rigs or reserves to do the final descent of some of the load he was carrying. (What did he exit with, and how much did it weigh?)

And a night jump into unknown and gnarly terrain with tall trees? He could almost be assured he'd be hung up in the trees: maybe extra rigs were for rope/lines, etc to help extricate himself.

Anyway, just some thoughts

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1 hour ago, Divalent said:

I don't know any of the details about what went on (I'm just a skydiver mildly interested in DB Cooper), so excuse me if what I say is so obviously contradicted by the known details.  But I'm curious why you assume he didn't use his own rig?

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes, particularly when jumping into unknown terrain at night. Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing. And I would have also thought about a tracking device being hidden inside.

So why ask for parachutes? Could be because he assumed they'd put in a tracking device, and he would toss that out 50+ miles from where he actually exited so that any search would focus on where he wasn't. And/or use some or all of the rigs or reserves to do the final descent of some of the load he was carrying. (What did he exit with, and how much did it weigh?)

And a night jump into unknown and gnarly terrain with tall trees? He could almost be assured he'd be hung up in the trees: maybe extra rigs were for rope/lines, etc to help extricate himself.

Anyway, just some thoughts

These are precisely the thoughts I expressed in my Daily DB Cooper Bite today.

I assume he owned a rig. I assume this because I'm convinced he was an experienced skydiver.

Ultimately I surmise that he went with a rig supplied by the authorities for at least one of two reasons:

1) He traveled into the country, therefore, hauling the rig with him was somewhat problematic--remember, he has to travel back home after the skyjacking is over.

2) He planned to discard the rig upon landing.

I see no value in him landing and fleeing the area with the rig. By definition, this means the rig is still out there yet to be discovered. I believe this also hints to a couple of other things that I discuss in the Daily DB Cooper Bite.

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16 hours ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC's decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.

Eric, I think your idea that it would have been easy for Cooper to conceal and bring his own rig is mistaken. Gear of that era was fairly bulky, I think it would indeed have been difficult to conceal.

8 hours ago, Divalent said:

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes...  Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing.

I read somewhere that the possible reason he asked for more than one rig was so that they would give him good ones for fear that he might make someone else (Tina) jump.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Cooper came dressed in loafers and a suit, which are about the LAST things any experienced parachutist would want to jump while wearing.

You'd be surprised what people might wear on a jump. Suits, costumes, nothing but a rig...  It would be no problem at all to jump in a suit, which I would guess he wore to blend in with the other passengers. Just ditch the tie (which he did) so it doesn't beat you in the face. The issue would be the loafers. If they were dress shoe type loafers they might well blow off on a 200 mph exit. If they were high tops, like someone suggested they might have been, then more likely that they would stay on. Either way, I would think that would be more of a concern for hiking out of the woods than the jump itself. You said that he also had some kind of bag that you imagined might contain better boots. I would hope to agree with that.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

On the question regarding Ha Ha HaThe character uses one of the chutes provided by the FBI. 

The reason I asked about that is because in that other book I read that I mentioned in an earlier post, written by a jumper from that era, his 'Cooper' actually did bring his own parachute. I don't recall how he got it on the plane unnoticed. Both books, though, have the hijacker actually jumping not over Washington, but on the approach to Reno.

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Here are the descent rates,, I used 2ft/sec to 3ft/sec to be conservative without winds for an example of drift time. To go further we need to include many more assumptions.. an exercise in futility.

The Placard appears to be about 4"x6" as found but was about 6"x6" originally. Use size ratio range 1:1-1:25. I used the range 2ft/sec to 3ft/sec.. as a conservative estimate for ground velocity without adding in wind and distance. 

3 ft/sec = 180ft/min falling 8680 ft = 48 minutes

2 ft/sec = 120 ft/min falling 8680 ft = 72 minutes

 

The other calcs add in wind and break down the increments at altitude and give distance.

Takeaway is.. that placard would be in the air for a long time and potentially drift up to 50+ miles.

It proves that using the placard location to support an alternate flightpath is pure nonsense. Eric and Robert's calcs are way off. WAY WAY OFF. 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78-03639A000500080001-1.pdf

The  leaflet data are an excellent proxy for the placard.. this is where you start.

descentratechart.jpeg.6e9a983d6bcb8122168e14b3417790f8.jpeg

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(edited)

The facts just don't support an alternate flightpath.

You have to dismiss the chase pilots, ATC, FBI, Air Force radar, Boeing and NorthWest. All based on (now) two questionable assumptions. 

1.) Assumption - WIND. Some still don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that the wind was assumed, it was an average of Portland and Salem over time, 8-9PM. It wasn't a fact, it was an assumption. Originally winds from the W were used then re-valuated to SSW. Data close to 8PM much CLOSER to the placard find than Portland indicates the winds were actually S (Toledo) or SSE (Sea-Tac) IN LINE WITH THE FLIGHTPATH. All data indicated that winds were the same direction through elevations but increased in speed at elevation. The winds in the area were actually ESE at 8 PM shifting to S and then SSW. 

"Information available to Portland indicates the wind believed to be in effect in the drop zone area at the time the hijacker parachuted was coming from the southwest. If that is the case and the Northwest engineers who computed the location of the drop zone and the prime line along which UNSUB presumedly fell were using southwest wind information, then the calculations of the location of the drop zone may not be accurate. A shift of wind from the west to the south would push to the east end of the prime line to the north in a counter-clockwise direction. It could cause previously unsearched territory to the west of the drop zone to be included in a new amended drop zone."

FBI part 20 page 6197-6198

8:00 PM - Toledo, Washington: Measured 3,000 feet overcast, 12 miles visibility, very light rain showers, temperature 42, wind south 5 knots. Rain began 7:35 p.m. 

9:00 PM - Toledo, Washington: 3,000 scattered measured, 3,400 overcast, 12 miles visibility, temperature 42, wind south 6 knots. Rain ended at 8:05 p.m. 

FBI part 22 page 6547

8:00 PM - Sea-Tac. Visibility 7 miles; clouds 700 'ft., scattered; estimated, 2,500 ft., overcast. Wind SSE @10 knots with light rain wnich began at 7:12 PM. 

 

2.) Assumption - PLACARD is from Cooper.

“We took the Cooper plane up after the hijacking and simulated a drop by a parachutist,’’ he said.. “We noticed the decal was missing after that but not before.”

This is problematic.. the “emergency Release” was an uncommon option to some 727-100 passenger planes. Not on cargo planes or 727-200’s. The placard would have been attached to a small emergency release access door or possibly attached above that door. The problem is the placard clearly had 5 rivets/screws attaching it, most were decals. That placard was probably affixed to the removable access door as depicted in diagrams but possibly attached to the wall above. I haven't been able to confirm that exact placard on any 727. I found one emergency release decal for a 727 but it stated "VENTRAL" airstiar not "AFT" and a little smaller, many planes had AFT AIRSTAIRS.. (side door)  it is possible that placard isn't even from a 727.

The placard shows tears where the rivets/screws would be holding it, that means there would be remains of the placard still held by those rivets/screws. There are only two possibilities, the access door and placard left the plane or the placard was torn and left the plane. This is important, the FBI never noticed any placard missing from the plane.. they didn’t notice a missing door or the remnants that would have been under the rivets/screws if attached to the wall. One of these conditions would have been readily apparent. They noticed the placard missing after simulating a parachute drop. Further, Boeing did inflight aft airstair testing in 1964/65.

 

If the emergency access door was missing, it would have been noticed, if the placard was affixed to wall part of it would remain trapped under rivets/screws and also be noticed.

Conclusion, the Placard most likely didn’t come from Cooper. 

 

Further and more important, the WIND.... the FBI estimated the winds for Cooper's LZ based on Portland, data suggests it was SSE to S near 8PM and that spins the LZ search area more NW. 

 

 

Here is an image of a non-flying 727-100 with the optional "emergency release door" it is to the right of the main ventral airstair control door with two finger/pull holes in it. This one appears to be missing the placard.

727emergencyaftstairrelease.jpeg

placard22.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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10 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I dunno. Maybe we will do a search anyway, but make Kyle DeDominces into the star of the show. Funny how that money was hidden in a box designed almost exactly like the hiding spot Scott Rolle discovered in the attic of Kenny's house. A plastic bag inside to boot. Who knows? KC might be laughing at all of us right now. 

Instead of numbers and calculations, which do help sometimes I'll admit, I like the idea more of live people giving their testimony on what they saw, or what they heard, or what they know. Kyle and Denise (Geestman's niece) are good examples. 

We will see you on June 21 in Castle Rock, whether or not Cooperland decides to make it pubic or not, or support our efforts or not...which so far have been lacking. People are beginning to notice, mainly because I keep pointing this fact out to them. When people run, try to squash, or refuse to acknowledge what is obvious to others, it only gives us more credibility in the eyes of the public. I may do a WordPress on this whole situation prior to the campout. 

IMO, going out and doing a search is a great idea... never know what you might find.

Analyzing all the facts we have, my opinion is that it is unlikely the placard came off during NORJAK, that doesn't mean it couldn't have.

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(edited)

Cooper likely chose that flight because it was very short with less chance of air marshals and a light passenger load..

There is zero connection to Boeing. A Boeing employee hijacking right near Boeing is not confirmation, it is a rejection of that assumption..

Hahneman hijacked his 727 in PA he jumped in Honduras, your assumption is busted.

There is no way Cooper makes the demand to fly nonstop to Mexico knowing that it was unachievable and would be rejected. He made that demand believing it was possible and that suggests his initial plan was to jump south of the US border. He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump in that weather. Cooper jumped were he did to avoid the risk of landing in Reno. It wasn't his initial plan.

Cooper was an aviator but he wasn't a 727 expert. He got basic things wrong.

Edited by FLYJACK

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parachute,,

Hayden got the 1957 parachute returned in 1975, it was deemed "would not be used as evidence.. in this matter."

I doubt the FBI would return the chute found on the plane so soon as "not evidence", but they would return one not sent to the plane. That further suggests Cooper used Cossey's chute.

 

parachutereturnedhayden.jpeg.9666a9393e12b71865e289f4df3bedff.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

They wouldn't be able to use it as evidence. it would be hard to link it to him. to have him in court would suggest a lot more against him vs a parachute on the plane. wasn't really used in the crime. 

Of course it would be evidence if it was the one left the plane. Cooper would have specific knowledge of it and may have handled it.

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It wasn't used......the defense would never admit to knowledge of something not used in the crime. the DA decided it wasn't of any value. the chute he tore apart would be used to help explain the crime, but not to convict. they wouldn't need another chute. obviously, it would be something very strong to get him in court in the first place. items linking him to the crime. the ticket, notes, the chute he used. I fail to see a quote from the DA explaining it wasn't on the plane. my guess he would of noted that..

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21 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

It wasn't used......the defense would never admit to knowledge of something not used in the crime. the DA decided it wasn't of any value. the chute he tore apart would be used to help explain the crime, but not to convict. they wouldn't need another chute. obviously, it would be something very strong to get him in court in the first place. items linking him to the crime. the ticket, notes, the chute he used. I fail to see a quote from the DA explaining it wasn't on the plane. my guess he would of noted that..

I disagree, the chute left by Cooper is evidence..

Why don't you ask Mark 377..

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Read what it says...the chute was returned after the DA decided NOT to use it as evidence....that doesn't mean it wasn't. the FBI is not going to keep something that is of no use. the DA found it not relevant to use. if they can't prove the hair from the towel doesn't belong to Cooper. that will not be used either..that was evidence? 

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22 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Cross your fingers...I found the contact to try and gain access to a 727-200 owned by FedEx. I'm calling him tomorrow..hopefully, the placard will be on it along with the door...

I have read that the optional "emergency release" was not an option on the cargo planes or 727-200's, so it won't have the same placard.. but it would still good to get detailed images..

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Hominid wrote this in a email to me in 2014...

 

The emergency extension system was not part of the original design.  It was added by some 
airlines, mostly in cargo planes, about 1970.  A few years after the hijacking, most 
airlines removed it about the same time they changed the normal airstair system so as not 
to require manual control of the hydraulics for normal use of the stairs.  This was when 
the pushbutton was removed from the end of the lever for the normal airstair control.  The 
adding, then removing, of the emergency extension system is why it is important to include 
the timeframe when asking someone about the airstair.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, mrshutter45 said:

Hominid wrote this in a email to me in 2014...

 

The emergency extension system was not part of the original design.  It was added by some 
airlines, mostly in cargo planes, about 1970.  A few years after the hijacking, most 
airlines removed it about the same time they changed the normal airstair system so as not 
to require manual control of the hydraulics for normal use of the stairs.  This was when 
the pushbutton was removed from the end of the lever for the normal airstair control.  The 
adding, then removing, of the emergency extension system is why it is important to include 
the timeframe when asking someone about the airstair.

That isn't quite accurate, not on 727-200's.. 164 727-100 passenger and 91 cargo/passenger "combi" jets were manufactured with the "emergency release" and 63 modification kits sold.  I don't have info about removal but they are uncommon and hard to find.. 

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp12296-schedulea-section2-5545.htm#section1

 

B-727-100/200 Doors (Type I)

Aft Airstairs (Ventral)

H - 1.93 (6 ft 4 in) W - 0.81 m (2 ft 8 in)

Approximate force required to move door control handle from closed/locked position to open position: 10 kg (22 lbs).

Door and Control Handle - 100 Series Control Handle has button on top of handle used in conjunction with handle to electrically raise/lower stair assembly.

Emergency Use (100 series) - inside stairway. Remove emergency access covers; pull sharply on release handle (inward). Action will cause uplocks to be sheared and forcibly extend stairs extensive damage will be caused to system).

/200

AFT Airstairs no alternate emergency handles NORMAL and EMERGENCY functions controlled by the single door control handle.

 

727airstairemergency.jpeg

727100emergencyairstair.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

I think the odds are greater the placard was not pop riveted. the way the placard looks does suggest it. the thickness of the card is very thin. in the photo you will see a similar placard. this is from a smoke door on a cargo plane.

smoke door.png

Edited by mrshutter45

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2 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

I think the odds are greater the placard was not pop riveted. the way the placard looks does suggest it. the thickness of the card is very thin. in the photo you will see a similar placard. this is from a smoke door on a cargo plane.

smoke door.png

It clearly had rivets/screws.. which is odd. I couldn't find any like that 727 or otherwise. Everything was decals, it may have been an earlier era plane, maybe not even a 727 as many planes had "AFT AIRSTAIRS" rear side. The 727 emergency release decal I did find said "VENTRAL AIRSTAIRS". 

 

 placard22.jpg.a235cf05adea23753dee4ee2b51b0c65.jpg

placard.jpg

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(edited)

I'm not saying it was a decal, thin like a decal. thin plastic separates it from a decal. it's obviously thin enough to tear easily.

Rivets can be done easily by the mechanics. I have several different pop rivet guns that are manual and air..

Edited by mrshutter45

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