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DB Cooper

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17 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 

As far as the parachute question, i.e. could there have been FIVE chutes on board, I just don't know what's going on with that. All previous information going back decades has said only four chutes were provided and that one of them was the dummy trainer. So...I just don't know what to say on that. The reports are a bit conflicting in some parts. 

 

Robert, I think the part you're not getting about the 5/6 parachute theory is, that not all of them were on the plane. I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory, indeed I'm just interested in the one he used and how it might affect the success of his jump, but as I understand it... Cooper asks for 4 parachutes. Maybe a couple different agents get on that, I dunno, but perhaps someone gets 2 from Hayden, someone else gets 4 from Cossey or Sky Sports or whoever, but they end up giving Cooper 4 out of the six. The other 2 are no longer in play. It sounds like the one Hayden got back may have been one of those, the other one seems unaccounted for. The part that I question about all of that is, at least 3 of the backpack ones are bailout rigs, certainly the ones they gave him were. The 2 front-mounts are useless from the get-go, regardless that one of them was a dummy, because they don't have harnesses, and don't attach to the bailout ones. I think I speculated on this before, but maybe they did that on purpose - he asks for 4, they give him 4, but 2 of them are unusable, limiting how many other people he may have forced to jump. But they gave him 4, if there were 1 or 2 others, they were never on the plane.

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(edited)

There is a lot of conflict. But I think the whole thing stems from - Flyjack thinks that the one Hayden got back was not the one they found on the plane.

Now you just said, "If two backpacks were found on board..." - but that's not right is it? I thought it was established that one backpack and one front-mount were found on board. So that's where the problem starts. Cooper uses one backpack, it's gone. One backpack is found on board. If that's not the one they gave back to Hayden, that would mean that that rig was never on the plane. A question - The front-mount that was found on board, did they give that one back to whoever it came from?

Got any more of those Excedrins?

Edited by dudeman17

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51 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

One thing we can eliminate, I think, is the idea Hayden would have owned a belly pack. I think that's 99% percent certain he wouldn't have bothered buying one.

It is 100% certain that Hayden would not have a belly pack to go with his bailout backpack. They are not compatible. A sport skydiver uses a sport main parachute that he packs up and uses however many times he jumps. The 'belly pack' is a front-mount reserve, packed by a rigger, in case his main malfunctions. The bailout backpack, packed by a rigger, does not use a front-mount reserve, because it IS a reserve in case the pilot/plane malfunctions.

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(edited)

There is another thing that adds to the chute confusion..

 

Cooper initially asked for only two chutes.. according the FBI docs he later asked for an additional two chest chutes..

That means Tina's statement about the note she dictated here is false.. or the FBI is hiding something or very confused.coopernotetinachutes.jpeg.eee97e96c65c35ad75580df6352a000f.jpeg

 

I wonder if Cooper asked for two "emergency" chutes and it got misinterpreted as "chest reserve" chutes. Perhaps different people requested chutes for Cooper and four back chutes were received with two going on the plane. All I know for sure is the Pioneer back chute Hayden got back wasn't the Pioneer chute left on the plane and it didn't come from Cooper so Cossey's chutes must have been used and he wasn't a liar.

The other possibility is the FBI is intentionally holding back info... they have been consistent in claiming four chutes went to Cooper, two back chutes, two front reserves with one the dummy.

 

 

 

fourchutesrequest.jpeg

cooperreq2chutes.jpeg

cooperchutedemandchange.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I think it's a screwup by the Reno FBI office in their reports. They name TWO chutes, but a reference to a third...

Then they say at the end of the report 'that is the end of evidence found on board...' Naming two chutes, but making reference to a THIRD canopy. 

 

They name 3 chutes as in evidence, not all items on the plane in Reno, the list also includes the airline ticket obtained from NorthWest.

"The following is a list of evidence obtained in this case:"

...

(3 chutes named)

The  back Pioneer Hayden got back.

The back Pioneer found on the plane which matches the packing date for Hayden's. (both the same)

The opened reserve chute.

 

Anyway you slice it there had to be more than 2 back chutes involved. 2 are accounted for and Cooper took one..

 

coopevidence.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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I did read the documents you posted.

They reference a "24 foot long" parachute. (factual error - It's diameter).

They also reference the packing card. Which shows the 26' and DOM of 1957. 

I am going to guess (and it is just a guess) that they screwed up the report. They got a few minor details mixed up.

Everything I've come across says the FBI delivered 4 parachutes to Cooper. NB-8 & Pioneer (both back type bailout rigs), the 'good' reserve and the Training Dummy reserve (both 'belly wart' type).

They found one back rig (the Pioneer) and the 'good' reserve (which had been opened and had lines cut off) on the plane when it landed. So Cooper jumped with the NB-8 rig and did something with the TDR. He may have used lines or canopy fabric or the container...
Or he may have just tossed the whole thing out the back. 
Or he may have just put it too close to the back stairs and it fell out at some point.

 

I'm not sure how much I'm willing to believe or toss out what Cossey has said. Lots of skydivers and 'airplane types' have a great deal of disdain for the press. The overall level of accuracy in most news reports of aviation incidents and accidents is pretty poor. The level of sensationalism is usually pretty high. 
So you get reporters saying crap like 'He fell 10000 feet and survived the impact' for a simple skydiving accident which should read "He was fine until he screwed up the landing."
It's pretty juvenile and stupid, but giving reporters bad info to make them look bad is not uncommon. (remember the names of the Asiana Airline pilots who overran the end of the runway in San Fran?)

 

So for Cossey to 'yank the chain' of the reporters wouldn't necessarily make me discount what he says elsewhere.
But the FBI data is pretty clear that Cossey didn't own the back rigs. Which is what I was led to believe from previous info.

And (operating off of memory until the search function gets usable), the NB-8 had a modification that moved the ripcord location. As I noted earlier, I think it was an 'outboard' location. Standard placement is on the inside of the main lift web (vertical strap from hip to shoulder). The handle normally is placed so that it points inward, towards the sternum. This mod puts it on the outside of the MLW, pointing towards the arm. 
My understanding is that this was done to place it further from a nervous student. It would make it a bit more 'snag prone', but experienced jumpers and jump pilots know to protect their handles from snags and inadvertent pulls. 
Apparently this was a known mod for bailout rigs used by jump pilots. But Hayden wasn't that.

Sooooo...

Was the NB-8 Cossey's? Was it a jump pilot rig? 
Or was it a former jump pilot rig that was modified before Hayden got it (because he had to) and he didn't really care about where the handle was because he never planned on using it?

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Everything is lettered that was obtained from the plane. the page before the one above starts with "A" being the cigarette butts. the chute in question doesn't have a letter beside it representing evidence even though it states it was found on the plane. one would tend to believe it should be marked as "F" and the last chute (reserve opened) should be labeled "G" if this was the actual evidence found on the plane. 

page 1.png

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2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

I did read the documents you posted.

They reference a "24 foot long" parachute. (factual error - It's diameter).

They also reference the packing card. Which shows the 26' and DOM of 1957. 

I am going to guess (and it is just a guess) that they screwed up the report. They got a few minor details mixed up.

Everything I've come across says the FBI delivered 4 parachutes to Cooper. NB-8 & Pioneer (both back type bailout rigs), the 'good' reserve and the Training Dummy reserve (both 'belly wart' type).

They found one back rig (the Pioneer) and the 'good' reserve (which had been opened and had lines cut off) on the plane when it landed. So Cooper jumped with the NB-8 rig and did something with the TDR. He may have used lines or canopy fabric or the container...
Or he may have just tossed the whole thing out the back. 
Or he may have just put it too close to the back stairs and it fell out at some point.

 

I'm not sure how much I'm willing to believe or toss out what Cossey has said. Lots of skydivers and 'airplane types' have a great deal of disdain for the press. The overall level of accuracy in most news reports of aviation incidents and accidents is pretty poor. The level of sensationalism is usually pretty high. 
So you get reporters saying crap like 'He fell 10000 feet and survived the impact' for a simple skydiving accident which should read "He was fine until he screwed up the landing."
It's pretty juvenile and stupid, but giving reporters bad info to make them look bad is not uncommon. (remember the names of the Asiana Airline pilots who overran the end of the runway in San Fran?)

 

So for Cossey to 'yank the chain' of the reporters wouldn't necessarily make me discount what he says elsewhere.
But the FBI data is pretty clear that Cossey didn't own the back rigs. Which is what I was led to believe from previous info.

And (operating off of memory until the search function gets usable), the NB-8 had a modification that moved the ripcord location. As I noted earlier, I think it was an 'outboard' location. Standard placement is on the inside of the main lift web (vertical strap from hip to shoulder). The handle normally is placed so that it points inward, towards the sternum. This mod puts it on the outside of the MLW, pointing towards the arm. 
My understanding is that this was done to place it further from a nervous student. It would make it a bit more 'snag prone', but experienced jumpers and jump pilots know to protect their handles from snags and inadvertent pulls. 
Apparently this was a known mod for bailout rigs used by jump pilots. But Hayden wasn't that.

Sooooo...

Was the NB-8 Cossey's? Was it a jump pilot rig? 
Or was it a former jump pilot rig that was modified before Hayden got it (because he had to) and he didn't really care about where the handle was because he never planned on using it?

That doesn't make sense,, your analysis isn't comprehensive and taking into account all the info. Did you read ALL the FBI docs I posted.

On one report they stated "length" that was an error. The packing card only says 24' or 26'. So, even if the "length" error is discounted there is overwelhming documentation to show that the chute found on the plane wasn't the one Hayden received.

 

Hayden sent in 2 Pioneer back chutes both packed May 21/71..

The Pioneer found on  the plane doesn't match the one given back to Hayden..

It is a different diameter, different year, different serial number, packed same date as Hayden's as noted in several files.

Two Pioneer back chutes were taken into evidence, so there had to be more than 2 back chutes. Cossey claimed he sent in two of his personal chutes. It all fits.

Cooper jumped with one of Cossey's chutes, likely the customized 28 ft.

 

Some FBI files do claim Cossey owned the chute given Cooper.

 

Finally, Cossey claimed the chute Cooper took was modified. Why would Cossey modify only one of Hayden's two chutes, a customer? makes no sense.

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5 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Everything is lettered that was obtained from the plane. the page before the one above starts with "A" being the cigarette butts. the chute in question doesn't have a letter beside it representing evidence even though it states it was found on the plane. one would tend to believe it should be marked as "F" and the last chute (reserve opened) should be labeled "G" if this was the actual evidence found on the plane. 

page 1.png

It isn't a list of evidence found on the plane, the airline ticket is there labelled D... it came from NorthWest.

coopevidence.jpeg

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Let me rephrase it...the evidence logged was obtained from the case, not just the plane. "physical evidence" not just what was on the plane. they are lettered A-F...one chute is not lettered. how or why it's there is uncertain but it appears not to be labeled as "physical evidence" 

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2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

according to 377 a 24' canopy is not typically found in a NB6 or NB8. they are found in reserve chutes as I suspected earlier....

typically, doesn't mean they aren't.

 

Hard to refute this doc.. that back chute found on the plane is not the reserve and not the one given to Hayden.

The evidence is overwhelming that a back chute found left on the plane was not the one returned to Hayden.,, the FBI may be hiding something like maybe 3 back chutes went on the plane, who knows...

 

chutefoundnorjak.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Let me rephrase it...the evidence logged was obtained from the case, not just the plane. "physical evidence" not just what was on the plane. they are lettered A-F...one chute is not lettered. how or why it's there is uncertain but it appears not to be labeled as "physical evidence" 

got it, but it was claimed to be found on the plane. The 1957 Hayden chute may be in evidence but never on the plane. 

Anyway you look at it, we have 2 back chutes plus the one Cooper used.

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

when you have conflicting reports...nothing can be overwhelming...

Where is the conflict?

 

The chute Hayden rec'd back from FBI was not the same one found on the plane. There had to be more than 2 back chutes involved. I can see a call out for chutes, 2 chutes arrive in a taxi from Hayden, 2 from Cossey, somebody grabs one from each and sends to the plane.

Cooper uses Cossey's and leaves Hayden's.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
37 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That doesn't make sense,, your analysis isn't comprehensive and taking into account all the info. Did you read ALL the FBI docs I posted.

On one report they stated "length" that was an error. The packing card only says 24' or 26'. So, even if the "length" error is discounted there is overwelhming documentation to show that the chute found on the plane wasn't the one Hayden received.

 

Hayden sent in 2 Pioneer back chutes both packed May 21/71..

The Pioneer found on  the plane doesn't match the one given back to Hayden..

It is a different diameter, different year, different serial number, packed same date as Hayden's as noted in several files.

Two Pioneer back chutes were taken into evidence, so there had to be more than 2 back chutes. Cossey claimed he sent in two of his personal chutes. It all fits.

Cooper jumped with one of Cossey's chutes, likely the customized 28 ft.

 

Some FBI files do claim Cossey owned the chute given Cooper.

 

Finally, Cossey claimed the chute Cooper took was modified. Why would Cossey modify only one of Hayden's two chutes, a customer? makes no sense.

Oops. No. I hadn't read all of it. I didn't realize how many more pages had been posted. I was responding to the pic a few pages back of the document with the pic of the packing data card below it.

So I missed a few things when I posted. Sorry about that. 

 

One of the things I hadn't seen was where you realized that the FBI mixed up the S/N (226) with the DOM (9/57). 

I can't understand how the reports are reading that they found two Pioneer back rigs on the plane (and it says the NG left one there? For how long?). 

The doc posted directly above my last post claims that the 24' Steinthal was an integral part of this parachute. That makes absolutely no sense. They describe two canopies, but only one container. Modern sport gear is like that. My personal rig (parachute) has both my main and reserve canopies (square ones) in one 'backpack'. But gear back then was not like that. And these were 'bailout' emergency rigs, which even today are 'single canopy' types (often rounds). 

 

Something to remember is that, even today, the 'Harness/container' (backpack) and "canopy" (parachute) are separate components. Each has it's own manufacturer, serial number and date of manufacture. For example, I jump an Infinity H/C, made by Velocity sports. I also jump a 170 square foot Sabre2, made by Performance Designs as a main canopy. 
There are a few companies today that make both H/Cs and canopies (Aerodyne is one). But most places only make one. 

I don't see any evidence of two complete, intact back rigs being found. 
What I think I see is evidence that the FBI knew very little about parachutes or their terminology and made a bunch of mistakes on the reports.
From the report before my post, it's possible that it was a Pioneer H/C, S/N 226, DOM 9/57;with a Steinthal canopy, S/N 60-9707, DOM 7/60. My PDC shows different mfgs, S/Ns & DOMs for the Infinity H/C and the Sabre2 canopy. 

Also, on the modified NB-8 and Cossey only modifying one rig of Hayden's. 
My guess would be that the rig was modified some time in the past, prior to Hayden purchasing it. He needed a couple bailout rigs, to grudgingly meet the FARs. So he got a couple. One was a civilian, unmodified Pioneer, the other was the Military NB-8 that had the 'outboard pull' mod. It wasn't that Cossey modded it when he sold it, it was that he sold a modded rig.

 

Edit to add:

JJG78 posted: 

Quote

How far back to posts go on this topic of DB Cooper? I see February 2008, but it sounds like it goes back further than that.  I might not be using the search function correctly. I thought a FBI agent named Ckret posted on here at one point.

Yes. There was an earlier thread that got locked because people got stupid. If you go back to the beginning of this one, you will see Quade (who was a moderator) posted 'keep it civil'. 
If you read down, there is a link to the original thread in the first or second page.

There's a ton of info, most of the 'known details' in that first thread or the beginning of this one. 

Larry Carr was an FBI agent, specializing in bank robberies, in the Seattle FBI office. IIRC, he's now on the east coast somewhere. He posted under the name Ckret for some time. He provided a fair amount of info that the FBI had, although he admitted he couldn't post everything he knew (his basic answer was 'go ahead and ask. If I have the info and am allowed to release it I will').

Edited by wolfriverjoe

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Emerick gave two reserves to the highway patrol. Emerick was alone. documented.

Hayden provided two chutes via taxi cab...

where is the third vehicle delivering other chutes? Hayden was alone I suspect. 

Hayden stated he had a 26' canopy and a 28'. he got back the 28' foot but the document below states Cooper has a 28' canopy and a reserve marked with "NormD"  with a white canopy as the dummy chute suggests. no mention of an X on the canopy. this is called a conflict?

You watch "In Search Of" and Cossey himself claims Cooper has a 28' canopy in a military container with a ripcord being hard to find? not a 26'. we have a 26' and 28' canopy that Cooper took with him..you can't have 2. that's a huge conflict? 

2001.png

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(edited)
6 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Emerick gave two reserves to the highway patrol. Emerick was alone. documented.

Hayden provided two chutes via taxi cab...

where is the third vehicle delivering other chutes? Hayden was alone I suspect. 

Hayden stated he had a 26' canopy and a 28'. he got back the 28' foot but the document below states Cooper has a 28' canopy and a reserve marked with "NormD"  with a white canopy as the dummy chute suggests. no mention of an X on the canopy. this is called a conflict?

You watch "In Search Of" and Cossey himself claims Cooper has a 28' canopy in a military container with a ripcord being hard to find? not a 26'. we have a 26' and 28' canopy that Cooper took with him..you can't have 2. that's a huge conflict? 

2001.png

Hayden also stated to Bruce he wasn't sure what was in them.. Hayden got back the 26'...

Cossey claimed the chutes came from his house, not Issaquah..

Cossey claimed Cooper took his 28'..

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
56 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Oops. No. I hadn't read all of it. I didn't realize how many more pages had been posted. I was responding to the pic a few pages back of the document with the pic of the packing data card below it.

So I missed a few things when I posted. Sorry about that. 

 

One of the things I hadn't seen was where you realized that the FBI mixed up the S/N (226) with the DOM (9/57). 

I can't understand how the reports are reading that they found two Pioneer back rigs on the plane (and it says the NG left one there? For how long?). 

The doc posted directly above my last post claims that the 24' Steinthal was an integral part of this parachute. That makes absolutely no sense. They describe two canopies, but only one container. Modern sport gear is like that. My personal rig (parachute) has both my main and reserve canopies (square ones) in one 'backpack'. But gear back then was not like that. And these were 'bailout' emergency rigs, which even today are 'single canopy' types (often rounds). 

 

Something to remember is that, even today, the 'Harness/container' (backpack) and "canopy" (parachute) are separate components. Each has it's own manufacturer, serial number and date of manufacture. For example, I jump an Infinity H/C, made by Velocity sports. I also jump a 170 square foot Sabre2, made by Performance Designs as a main canopy. 
There are a few companies today that make both H/Cs and canopies (Aerodyne is one). But most places only make one. 

I don't see any evidence of two complete, intact back rigs being found. 
What I think I see is evidence that the FBI knew very little about parachutes or their terminology and made a bunch of mistakes on the reports.
From the report before my post, it's possible that it was a Pioneer H/C, S/N 226, DOM 9/57;with a Steinthal canopy, S/N 60-9707, DOM 7/60. My PDC shows different mfgs, S/Ns & DOMs for the Infinity H/C and the Sabre2 canopy. 

Also, on the modified NB-8 and Cossey only modifying one rig of Hayden's. 
My guess would be that the rig was modified some time in the past, prior to Hayden purchasing it. He needed a couple bailout rigs, to grudgingly meet the FARs. So he got a couple. One was a civilian, unmodified Pioneer, the other was the Military NB-8 that had the 'outboard pull' mod. It wasn't that Cossey modded it when he sold it, it was that he sold a modded rig.

 

 

The info came from the packing cards.. and matches the info layout.

One matches the one Hayden got back, the other doesn't at all..

Cossey claimed the custom/modified rig was his own personal one.. and was used by Cooper.

I find it hard to believe that a customer would have 1 modified chute and one not.

 

I noodled this for a bit and tried to figure out different scenarios that could fit the evidence..  the only thing that fits is that there were more than 2 back chutes and Cooper jumped with one of Cossey's.

 

These are two different chutes..

Hayden got the 1957 back and the other was left on the plane, both have the same packing date.

"this also was packed by E. J. Cossey on 5/21/71."

coopevidence.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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2 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Correct, I got it backwards. this now matches what they have on record...28' canopy that Hayden is missing and is in the report from the lab..

One thought I had was that one found on the plane was Cossey's Pioneer but it was packed the same May 21/71 date as Hayden's.. that would be an amazing co-incidence and slim... and the one Hayden got back was never on the plane.

Cossey hearing that a Pioneer was found on the plane would have assumed his custom chute was taken by Cooper. Then Cooper would have taken Hayden's 28 ft..

But, any way you slice it, there had to be more than 2 back chutes involved.

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