47 47
quade

DB Cooper

Recommended Posts

These suggest Cooper was right handed.. he did drink and smoke while seated so he likely switched hands at times.  Maybe that is why Tina lit his smokes for him... one free hand usually the left one.

 

"when he was moving toward the aft lavatory.  He was carrying the attache case on its side in his left hand with his right hand in the case."

"right hand inside the briefcase at all times"

 

 

cooperlavrighthandbomb.jpeg.5c1ec81aec974ca7abf1fe3d6e77055a.jpeg

cooprighthandbrief.jpeg.3fac857f31a872af5d9edc97d0ae3aea.jpeg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, the case resting in the seat to the right of DBC necessitates him using his right hand.

DBC walking to the lavatory holding the case in his left hand may be suggestive of favoring his right hand, but this is entirely predicated upon the entire motion of him sliding out of his seat, standing and moving toward the back. In other words, if the right hand was in the case at the beginning of this procedure, it is likely to stay in the case thereby not indicating anything other than that which was practical.

The case in a completely neutral position sitting upon his lap invites his natural tendencies to display themselves. The fact that the left hand was observed by Bill Mitchell as discussed in his contemporaneous 302 is notable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, EJU said:

Again, the case resting in the seat to the right of DBC necessitates him using his right hand.

DBC walking to the lavatory holding the case in his left hand may be suggestive of favoring his right hand, but this is entirely predicated upon the entire motion of him sliding out of his seat, standing and moving toward the back. In other words, if the right hand was in the case at the beginning of this procedure, it is likely to stay in the case thereby not indicating anything other than that which was practical.

The case in a completely neutral position sitting upon his lap invites his natural tendencies to display themselves. The fact that the left hand was observed by Bill Mitchell as discussed in his contemporaneous 302 is notable.

Cooper was drinking, he put the case on his lap to switch to his left and drink with his right hand. MITCHELL,, "THE SUBJECT WAS NOT NOTICED UNTIL HE SPILLED A DRINK"

If Cooper was left handed he would have placed the case on his left side. Using the fact that case was placed on the right side to negate a right handedness is poor logic. He likely placed it on his right and chose his seat to facilitate his use of his more dexterous right hand. 

 

Cooper was more than likely right handed.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was drinking, he put the case on his lap to switch to his left and drink with his right hand. MITCHELL,, "THE SUBJECT WAS NOT NOTICED UNTIL HE SPILLED A DRINK"

If Cooper was left handed he would have placed the case on his left side. Using the fact that case was placed on the right side to negate a right handedness is poor logic. He likely placed it on his right and chose his seat to facilitate his use of his more dexterous right hand. 

 

Cooper was more than likely right handed.

 

 

I absolutely disagree. Cooper would not have the case sitting in the chair on the aisle for two primary reasons.

First, Flo and Tina used the seat.

Second, the case is susceptible to being neutralized by someone in the aisle.

The smart option for Cooper was the window seat to his right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, EJU said:

I absolutely disagree. Cooper would not have the case sitting in the chair on the aisle for two primary reasons.

First, Flo and Tina used the seat.

Second, the case is susceptible to being neutralized by someone in the aisle.

The smart option for Cooper was the window seat to his right. 

nonsense, he could have picked a different seat like on the other side of the isle.

He chose that seat to have the case on his right side, he could have chosen a seat to have his left hand in the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep seeing references to a 28 ft Conical.  E.g.: "Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden."

There was no 28 ft Conical, only a 26 ft Conical. The 28 ft canopy was a C9 mil surplus round.  

377

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha, I remember Paralerts. I've never worn an audible, could never fathom the idea that you should need one. (Though I have always thought that they should design one with a snooze button.) The best altimeter on the planet is... the planet. That's the one that will never break down and lie to you. I jumped for years without any altimeter, put one back on when I got instructor ratings. I use an altimaster analog, they're easy to see, never need batteries, and they're easy to adjust - when I'm doing AFF I always sync mine with the student's at their pull altitude on the way up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The best altimeter on the planet is... the planet."  LOVE IT!!!

I made my first 38 post training solo jumps with no altimeter. I was a struggling college student who would rather spend the money on jumps. I got good at spotting and good and visually estimating altitude over well-known terrain.

I was once riding as a passenger on a corporate King Air in Brazil. The pilot came back into the cabin and asked how the passengers were enjoying the flight. He asked if we would care to guess how high the plane was flying. I told him I'd bet him I could nail it within 500 feet. He took the bet. I had a really great steak dinner on him in Sao Paolo. It got even better because he invited a friend who had flown A4 Skyhawks for Argentina in the Falklands War. The stories he told of attacking British ships at mast top height were riveting, enhanced by serial Caipirinhas.

Still jump an old SSE Altimaster 2. I have all the fancy L&B stuff too, but  I am an engineer and I'll take simple aneroid mech baro as my primary reference any day. No batteries needed. No electronic components to age or fail. 

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, 377 said:

I keep seeing references to a 28 ft Conical.  E.g.: "Sounds like to me that Cooper jumped with the 'military back pack parachute' the 28 foot conical, belonging to Hayden."

There was no 28 ft Conical, only a 26 ft Conical. The 28 ft canopy was a C9 mil surplus round.  

377

possibly....a parachute was found on the banks of the river in 2001. the description was given of the chutes Cooper had to compare with the chute found. 

2001.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 377 said:

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

The surface answer is, I don't know, but I would think so. I've always been fascinated by the case, but I've never done any intensive study of the details. I've seen whatever documentaries I've come across, read a number of articles, and follow this thread out of curiosity. Most of the Cooper researchers seem to think he did, and I couldn't imagine someone trying to pull this caper off without having at least some experience. The deeper answer - I suspect he may have been a very experienced, current jumper. But I'll have to PM you as to why I think that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question...

How rare would it be to hand write "F.B.I" with periods in between and not at the end in 1971?

Is that common, normal or standard? Is it a regional convention?

I would write it either "FBI" or "F.B.I." with a period after the I, but I am Canadian and have had less exposure to how "FBI" is/was hand written.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/22/2019 at 11:33 AM, FLYJACK said:

 

 

DB-Cooper-Loot-Map.jpg.0b4a7d2860f41a8da5c1d18c5f7b0095.jpg

 

On this map are the red dots supposed to represent before Cooper jumped and the blue dots after he jumped?  If so they seem to be off by one minute since I think he jumped at 20:13 but the 20:12 dot is already shown as blue.  Anyways I don't quite understand why a jump in this terrain is so often described as unsurvivable.  The closest communities to the location of the aircraft at 20:13 seem to be Heisson and Battle Ground.  The elevation of Heisson is 440ft and the elevation of Battle Ground is 295ft.  Doesn't sound that mountainous to me.  A jump in this area should have been survivable.  It doesn't make sense to me that this terrain is often described as so mountainous that Cooper could not have survived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Question...

How rare would it be to hand write "F.B.I" with periods in between and not at the end in 1971?

Is that common, normal or standard? Is it a regional convention?

I would write it either "FBI" or "F.B.I." with a period after the I, but I am Canadian and have had less exposure to how "FBI" is/was hand written.

 

I don't know, but my question about that would be, are there a number of instances where you've seen that, or just once? If just once, it could be an oversight, faulty pen...? If it's a number of places, it could be an identifier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I don't know, but my question about that would be, are there a number of instances where you've seen that, or just once? If just once, it could be an oversight, faulty pen...? If it's a number of places, it could be an identifier.

yes, of course I have two samples, you are too far ahead.

I wanted to figure out if it is unique first. I am not sure.. I would never write "F.B.I" like that.

 

If it is unique then I may have a strong link, but there are other things that suggest a link too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SivaGanesha said:

 

On this map are the red dots supposed to represent before Cooper jumped and the blue dots after he jumped?  If so they seem to be off by one minute since I think he jumped at 20:13 but the 20:12 dot is already shown as blue.  Anyways I don't quite understand why a jump in this terrain is so often described as unsurvivable.  The closest communities to the location of the aircraft at 20:13 seem to be Heisson and Battle Ground.  The elevation of Heisson is 440ft and the elevation of Battle Ground is 295ft.  Doesn't sound that mountainous to me.  A jump in this area should have been survivable.  It doesn't make sense to me that this terrain is often described as so mountainous that Cooper could not have survived.

The crew felt oscillations at 20:12, but that it the timestamp at the end of the transmission process. So, the vent was earlier..  There was a "little bob" found on the FDR at 20:09. The numbers are rounded..

If the oscillations were Cooper jumping then he likely left between 20:09 and 20:11. But even that isn't certain.

The terrain looks very survivable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a dedicated Cooper researcher, I just follow along out of curiosity. But it seems like a lot of time is spent debating minute details that seem superfluous to me. To me, the main questions are, exactly how did he pull it off, and of course the biggie, who was he? Like the parachutes - how many, who owned them, their serial numbers...? To me the operative issues would be specific to the one he jumped:

1. The size. For instance, a heavier person under a smaller canopy might have a greater chance of spraining an ankle or something on landing, affecting his ability to hike out. But Cooper seems like an average size guy. If he had experience, could pull off a decent PLF, he probably could have landed any of those ok.

2.The type of canopy, specifically whether it was steerable or not. If not, then he's pretty much at the mercy of the winds as to how far he drifts, and more importantly, exactly where he lands. If he lands in trees, rocks, on a steep hillside..., he has more chance of being injured. If it was steerable, then he has a better chance of landing unscathed in a flat, open area of his choosing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/17/2019 at 10:06 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

It's harder than people believe to COMPLETELY vanish from the face of the earth, especially in a purposeful manner. (Not counting plane crashes in the wilderness or falling off a ship, etc.)

One set of people that would probably know what happened to him is any of his relatives, the ones from HIS side of the family. It's hard to go the rest of your life without contacting someone from your side of the family. He might be able to avoid your mother's side, and probably would, but if anyone knows anything, it would come from his side somewhere. .

 

Melvin Wilson's only family was his mother, Evelyn Swartz, and his first wife/children who resided in the San Francisco area. His first wife and their children were very close to Evelyn and took care of her until she passed. He left his first family in 1956 after being released from San Quentin. According to his first wife, he never contacted their family again. His mother, Evelyn, died in 1994. When Melvin left his first family, he also left his mother. She never saw him again. When he met my mother, he said he was from Canada and was an orphan as his parents died when he was very young. 

I have submitted my DNA into 4 different DNA databases (such as Ancestry). So far, I have found a cousin on my father's side. The loophole?  Their family did not know their (and my) grandfather fathered my dad after moving (abandoning his wife and 7 children in Pennsylvania) to San Francisco, California in 1926. My grandfather died December 1944. 

So as far as our family is concerned, Melvin Wilson vanished from the face of the earth. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How far back to posts go on this topic of DB Cooper? I see February 2008, but it sounds like it goes back further than that.  I might not be using the search function correctly. I thought a FBI agent named Ckret posted on here at one point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm not a dedicated Cooper researcher, I just follow along out of curiosity. But it seems like a lot of time is spent debating minute details that seem superfluous to me. To me, the main questions are, exactly how did he pull it off, and of course the biggie, who was he? Like the parachutes - how many, who owned them, their serial numbers...? To me the operative issues would be specific to the one he jumped:

1. The size. For instance, a heavier person under a smaller canopy might have a greater chance of spraining an ankle or something on landing, affecting his ability to hike out. But Cooper seems like an average size guy. If he had experience, could pull off a decent PLF, he probably could have landed any of those ok.

2.The type of canopy, specifically whether it was steerable or not. If not, then he's pretty much at the mercy of the winds as to how far he drifts, and more importantly, exactly where he lands. If he lands in trees, rocks, on a steep hillside..., he has more chance of being injured. If it was steerable, then he has a better chance of landing unscathed in a flat, open area of his choosing.

28 ft non-steerable, winds were estimated by using/averaging over time the Portland and Salem data. Initially they thought from the W, then SSW but close to 8 PM they were ESE and were shifting to S and SSW. So, like almost everything in this case,,, ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Found another FBI document... Parachutes found on plane

 

FBI doc page 4951

"On the floor directly in front of seat number 18D, the exterior canvas cover for a chest type parachute was observed along with the handle utilized for releasing this parachute.

The label on this canvas covering indicated it to be Pack Part Number 4511876B and indicated the date of manufacture to have been October, (year illegible). The flap on this canvas exterior contained a sewn on white label with the notation SSS # 5 and COSS. This flap had also been stenciled with the name JOHNSON.

An opened parachute which apparently had been removed from the canvas parachute cover described above was found spread out over seats 17C and 17B. This parachute was of a pink-orange color. 

On seat 18B, an unopened back type parachute was observed. A card in the pocket of this parachute reflected it to be a Conacol type parachute, number 60-9707 and made by the Pioneer Parachute Company.  This card indicated it was last inspected on May 21, 1971."

 

The Pioneer back chute 60-9707 left on the plane does not match the chute Hayden got back from the FBI.. that indicates one of Hayden's chutes was not sent to the plane and Cooper must have jumped with Cossey's chute.

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  60-9707DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

chutefoundnorjak.jpeg.2a5fe69ee30cef2b40fc118636ccda6b.jpeg

 

chutes-1.jpg.678346ed93627ed588cd84ad967e84bb.jpg.1d108fed0aaf815f1b5f5c69d87d1ad4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(edited)

Something else - Supposedly Cooper was wearing loafers, presumably of the dress shoe variety (since he had a suit on). Unless those things were fairly snug, I would expect that they might likely blow off on a 200 mph exit. That means he would be landing and hiking out in his socks. I hope he had feet like Cody Lundin.

Edited by dudeman17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

47 47