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DB Cooper

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(edited)
19 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I have to say I tend to believe the FBI report more than Cossey's version of events. Cossey is the same guy who thought it was funny to tell a reporter that the Amboy chute WAS Cooper's. Poor guy almost lost his job. Cossey is the same guy who told reporters in 2008 that he knew the Amboy chute was silk and that's why it couldn't be Cooper's. He said they dumped it in his driveway and he knew 'in less than ten seconds'. 

I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but I think the PDF is pretty accurate and Cossey was less than honest when he said he actually owned the chute Cooper jumped with. 

Well, no matter. Come June the one I will be looking for doesn't even work. 9_9 Two more people applied to go on the search/campout today. If we get thirty people or so, I think I will cut it off there. So far we have nine 'for sures' and two 'maybes'. Or I might stop accepting apps based on the number of vehicles. I don't think it's the number of people so much that matters, but how many vehicles we plan to take up there. 

You don't have to believe Cossey to see the issue, the FBI files clearly state the chute and packing card found on the plane at Reno was a 1960 Pioneer back chute 24 ft packed by Cossey May 21/1971. That is one of Hayden's. Hayden received a 1957 26 ft from the FBI. Both are confirmed seperately in the FBI files and the 24ft as found on the plane in Reno.

So, we have accounted for both of Hayden's back chutes..

What did Cooper jump with? 

 

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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31 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

also, when researching the C-47 crewman, I kept reading the phrase "do the job" was that a WW2 phrase?

I don't know.  "Do the job" sounds like something someone would say that has a bomb and is threatening people.  Maybe it has military connotations.  The term ladder jumped out at me and made me think of some of those World War II movies. 

Did you ever figure out where the dredge started?  That is some good info on the bills you posted.

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, JJG78 said:

I don't know.  "Do the job" sounds like something someone would say that has a bomb and is threatening people.  Maybe it has military connotations.  The term ladder jumped out at me and made me think of some of those World War II movies. 

Did you ever figure out where the dredge started?  That is some good info on the bills you posted.

No, I lost tons of files in an HD crash a couple years back, I looked but only can recall nothing specific to Sauvie, but generally that material was barged from downstream including the Lewis R for erosion mitigation in many areas.

I worked on it for a while a few years ago but couldn't get any further than confirming the massive 200,000 cu/yd shore remediation project in 1976/77 right across and upstream from TBAR, beyond that it is speculation.

 

 

I kept seeing it, one example..

Hahneman was in the 316th..

“Gentlemen, you will be taking part in the largest Airborne Armada ever assembled. The 316th Troop Carrier Group will be sending 72 planes into the air from here.  There are thirteen more identical groups just like ours - 72 planes in each group - taking off from different locations.  In total, 800 planes will blend mid-air into V-Formation to complete the 2-hour, 51-minute flight to Normandy.  Let’s do the job you men have been trained for.  Keep the formation tight, and give your troops a good trip to the DZ.  Good luck.  Let’s go!”

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

Has anyone asked the skydivers if the NB6 would have a 24' round in it? 24' sound like a front chute..

 

The problem I see with the document I posted is one chute is not lettered as evidence. it's basically showing 3 chutes on the plane but only two listed as evidence..

 

It is a list of in custody evidence.

They had both of Hayden's chutes in evidence so both listed, they didn't have the dummy reserve so it wasn't listed. They didn't have Cooper's chute so it isn't listed either. (Cossey's)

Both were packed by Cossey on 5/21/71. They have different types and S/N. The 3rd was the chest reserve packed on 9/6/71. The fourth dummy would not have a packing card/requirement.

Clearly, they are referring to the two Hayden chutes, the top one is the one he got back, the 1957 26ft type 226. The next one, found on the plane is the 1960 24 ft. 

So, both are accounted for,, What did Cooper use?

 

Also matches this FBI doc.. the info would have been right on the card.

 

haydenchutefoundplane.jpeg.cd4a895151fefa4939d15c61eeb562cc.jpeg

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
7 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

The packing card is CORRECT. The FBI file is inaccurate. Some of the folks from this website would call the agents who typed up that report whuffos. What do you bet that card could be still in its slot at the WSHM display?

'Parachute in very good condition and capable of being operated at any time...' They would NOT have said that about the other chute found on board, since lines were hacked from it. Cooper bailed with the Navy Backpack. 

You have it mixed up, the lines were not cut from that chute. That is the Hayden back chute.

The packing card is correct, it is for the 1957 chute given back to Hayden, it matches the top chute in evidence custody.

The other chute in evidence custody is Hayden's other back chute that was left on the plane,, get it.

We have both of Hayden's chutes in evidence custody,, Cooper didn't use either of Hayden's chutes.

 

I have found the black hole in the Vortex...  it sucks in all logic and reason...

 

Cooper used one of Cossey's chutes, there is no other explanation.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
4 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

No, my friend. the other chute in evidence custody, the ONLY one in evidence custody today...is the belly pack that was examined by the Sleuths. The FBI had TWO chutes, but they returned ONE to Hayden. The one they have today is definitely a reserve belly pack. Come on now...that's been 200% certified for years, with dozens of pictures and a complete examination by the Sleuths. 

I am referring to the FBI document posted. Not what happened afterward. Both of Hayden's back chutes were in FBI evidence custody plus the cut open reserve chute. 

You have this all messed up, go noodle it for a while.

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I don't see your logic. Sources say nothing about more than four chutes. If three total chutes were in custody, that means Cooper jumped with a non working reserve. Nothing points to THREE chutes being found on board in Reno, only TWO, and the dummy was missing. One of the two was the popped reserve, the other was the Pioneer. All sources report the NB was missing. 

You're making me laugh now....

Forget everything you think you know. Read those docs I posted very carefully.

We have both of Hayden's back chutes in FBI evidence custody 11/26/71, plus the front reserve with cut lines..  Hayden got back the top one, the 26 ft 1957 one that matched the card. The FBI has the other Hayden chute, the 24 ft 1960 Pioneer found on the plane.

What did Cooper jump with?

You keep saying the Hayden chute,, Well, the FBI had both of them on 11/26/71.

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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Geez, I'm about to hit Blevins up for one of his Excedrin, and I'm just an old skydiver trying to follow along out of curiosity. I can see both of your theories, but, if I've got this right, the part of Flyback's theory that Blevins isn't getting is that the rig Hayden got back wasn't on the airplane. If they got 6 rigs, 4 back and 2 front, but only gave Cooper 2 of the bad ones, one of Haden's and one of Cossey's, then the one Hayden got back was one of those 2 not given Cooper. Is that right? If so, the other Cossey backpack seems unaccounted for.

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2 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Read the file pictures you posted and it still doesn't make sense. You refer to the belly pack, the opened reserve, as belonging to Hayden. This is not true. Hayden did not purchase a belly pack. He barely agreed, albeit grudgingly, to wear a bailout rig. I think this is where you went wrong. The FBI never had three chutes in custody. Only two. The popped reserve, and the one eventually returned to Hayden. Dummy chute gone, other one taken by Cooper. 

In other words...there WAS no fifth Beatle. 

No, I never claimed nor do I believe the belly reserve belonged to Hayden. The docs don't say that either. So, I didn't go wrong. You have everything mixed up.

That FBI doc lists 3 chutes in evidence dated 11/26/71..  Hayden's two back chutes and the front reserve from Issaquah. Cooper did not jump with either one of Hayden's chutes.

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9 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Geez, I'm about to hit Blevins up for one of his Excedrin, and I'm just an old skydiver trying to follow along out of curiosity. I can see both of your theories, but, if I've got this right, the part of Flyback's theory that Blevins isn't getting is that the rig Hayden got back wasn't on the airplane. If they got 6 rigs, 4 back and 2 front, but only gave Cooper 2 of the bad ones, one of Haden's and one of Cossey's, then the one Hayden got back was one of those 2 not given Cooper. Is that right? If so, the other Cossey backpack seems unaccounted for.

Basically yes...

The chute Hayden got back wasn't his Pioneer found on the airplane.  That means Cooper did not use either of Hayden's chutes and since Cossey had claimed he supplied 2 back chutes form his home then Cooper must have used one of Cossey's chutes.

This article by Bruce gives the background..

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

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Anyway, I'm not a rigger, certainly not a 70's rigger, but I am a 40-year skydiver/instructor and here's a few general things about the parachutes. 

The measurement, 24', 26', 28', refers to diameter, not length. That was a typo/misunderstanding by whoever typed that report.

Harness/containers and the parachute canopies are separate things, they connect at the connector links between the risers on the container and the lines on the canopy. That means that the container could hold whatever size canopy the rigger put into it, as long as it fits.

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7 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Cossey did NOT provide chutes from his house at the time of the hijacking. I will come right out and say it. That is a LIE. He did pack three of the chutes provided to Cooper, sure. He may have even owned the belly reserve that was popped, and maybe even the dummy reserve. But there is absolutely no evidence supporting the idea that Cossey PERSONALLY provided chutes on the evening of the hijacking. Or that more than four chutes were delivered to the airport. The truth is much simpler. Cossey was the rigger. Linn Emerick at Sky Sports handed over the chutes. Hayden had his two backpacks shipped up by cab. That's the truth. 

Listen to Agent John Detlor. He was right. And his report matches exactly what Hayden said in his interview. You are trying to cram more chutes into the scenario then were actually delivered. I saw the FBI files you posted and I studied them thoroughly. Except for a reference where the Reno boys called a 26 foot Pioneer a 24, when the packing card was right there in front of them, I don't see the logic here. 

You didn't read the docs very carefully, the years don't match, the type and serial numbers don't match.

These things including the measurements are written on the card, the guy may have assumed length instead of diameter. However, these are the two different Hayden chutes.

In evidence custody.. Both of Hayden chutes.

1. Pioneer 26 ft white ripstop conical, type 226, SN 9/57 (1957) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. Pioneer 24 ft white ripstop conical, type 260-9707, SN 7/60 (1960) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard)

 

So, Hayden got back one of his chutes that never went on the plane.

It doesn't really matter what Cossey says, this proves that Cooper did not jump with either of Hayden's chutes. 

 

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8 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I just went to the Mountain News article and read it. Cossey was not being truthful. Here's one indicator:  If those chutes were actually HIS...the FBI would NOT have returned the Pioneer to Norman Hayden. They returned it to him because they knew it was his. Hayden has also claimed a rental arrangement with NWA on those two backpack chutes, said he got a check from them later. I interviewed this guy for almost two hours. His testimony matches the report by Agent Detlor to a T, except he tossed in the rental agreement stuff during the interview. He had no motivation to lie about those chutes. He was offered money by the WSHM and turned it down...just gave it to them. He could have put it on eBay for thousands. 

Cossey, I am sorry to say, is the one not being truthful. He brushed off the FBI on the Amboy chute investigation by claiming both to them and the media that it was made of silk, which is baloney. He lied to a Seattle reporter about that chute and almost got the guy fired. Hayden's version of events is not only backed up by a solid report by an FBI agent, but he never tried to cash in because of Cooper. If this is a question of credibility, I choose to believe Norman Hayden and Agent John Detlor of the Seattle FBI. 

You completely miss the point. Hayden is being truthful and Cossey's statements are entirely irrelevant. The FBI evidence is clear, Hayden did not get returned to him the back chute that was found on the plane (1960). It was his other chute (1957). << That is what you are missing. Follow the logic from there.

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The back bailout rigs don't have D-rings to attach the front reserves because they basically ARE reserves. Someone a while back said something about 'no one delivering D-rings' to hook them up'. I doesn't work that way. The D-rings are sewn into the harnesses of sport mains.

The front-mount reserves do not have harnesses and could not be independently jumped - there'd be no way to attach the parachute to the person.

I read or heard somewhere that the possible reason that Cooper asked for 4 parachutes was so that they would give him good ones for fear that he might make one or more of the crew jump. The fact that they gave him 2 unusable ones, dummy or not, especially if they came from different people is kind of strange. Perhaps they were being clever, 'yeah we gave him the four he asked for', but only two are usable.

The thing about Cossey moving the ripcord on one of them. Like Mark said, that's not that unusual, there are a number of reasons that might be done. The weird thing about that is, in that article about the parachutes that I believe Flyjack linked a while back, Cossey figured Cooper for a no-pull bounce because he thought that rig would be difficult for a non-experienced jumper to deploy. That doesn't make sense to me. Anywhere you could mount that thing on the front of the harness, it would be in reach. If anything, it may confuse an experienced jumper a bit if it's not in the 'normal' place (I doubt that, though), whereas a novice would just see where it is and figure that's what you pull. Also, Cossey, an experienced jumper and rigger, thinks that an inexperienced jumper would have a hard time deploying it, yet he would normally give it to a pilot (remember it's a bailout rig) who's probably NOT an experienced jumper? Cooper would have a lot more time to figure out the pull from 10 grand than an aerobatic pilot who's about to go in would. Hell, that rig could have been on Tina's back.

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28 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

EDIT: I deleted my comment here after I inspected the photos of PINKY at the Citizen Sleuths. I think the FBI just screwed up in their report file. They have two different canopies supposedly connected to the same frickin' container. Even to a whuffo like me, that makes not a bit of sense. How could they name ONE canopy and give its diameter and serial numbers, and then say 'another' canopy associated with that parachute has different numbers and size? This makes absolutely NO sense. They don't say there is a second Pioneer. They just say there are two different canopies associated with it. 

My Excedrin bottle is empty. I want to go camping. B| Like badly. Too bad I have to wait for June, damn it. 

It makes perfect sense... you just don't see it yet.

Cooper didn't jump with either of Hayden's chutes..

He got the 1957 back SN 9/57 (never given to Cooper)

The other was left on the plane by Cooper. SN 7/60

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You also asked something a while back about drop zones owning chutes,'keeping a few around in case someone wanted to make a first jump...'

Actually yeah, drop zones definitely have student gear specifically for training first jump (and beyond) students. In fact, that's the bread and butter of their business. The idea of someone coming up with their own rig, and showing up at a dz to give it a try, that ain't gonna happen. In those days it was a static line program, you did a few of those and transitioned to freefall with short to increasing delays. These days first jumps are either tandem or AFF, freefall jumps from full altitude. Static line is all but obsolete these days, as are round parachutes.

Which begs the question - Have any of you Cooper researchers ever made a jump? It would be real easy for you to find a drop zone near you and do a tandem jump to check it out.

 

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As I mentioned before in the document I posted. the evidence is clearly marked with a letter. that chute is not and appears to describe a front chute. something is wrong somewhere but I don't think it's extra chutes. I have another document that states Cooper has a 28 foot chute NB6. then they list a front chute 24' white with "NORM D" inscribed on the front. this was in reference to a chute found in 2001. 

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4 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

As I mentioned before in the document I posted. the evidence is clearly marked with a letter. that chute is not and appears to describe a front chute. something is wrong somewhere but I don't think it's extra chutes. I have another document that states Cooper has a 28 foot chute NB6. then they list a front chute 24' white with "NORM D" inscribed on the front. this was in reference to a chute found in 2001. 

It is not a front chute, it matches the one inspected by the National Guard in Reno.. a back one left on the plane, it was packed on May 21/71 matching Hayden's. The front reserve was packed 9/16/71.

There is another FBI doc in which an FBI agent describes two back pack chutes "ordinary military olive green drab"..  then later the two Hayden chutes are described, one tan and one olive drab green.

Cossey's claim was both his back chutes were green.

That suggests there were two sets of back packs sent. Two green and Hayden's tan and green.

 

This explains everything.. Cossey may have made errors but he wasn't lying. Cooper must have jumped with one of his chutes.

 

 

 

haydenchutefoundplane.jpeg

4backchutes.jpeg

Edited by FLYJACK

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(edited)

One thing to note..  the FBI notes for the description of the two Hayden back chutes is accurate but labelled wrong. They clearly wrote it down off the packing card but the card info labels are below the line, they assumed above.

In evidence custody.. Both of Hayden chutes as noted by FBI.

1. Pioneer 26 ft white ripstop conical, type 226, SN 9/57 (1957) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. Pioneer 24 ft white ripstop conical, type 260-9707, SN 7/60 (1960) packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard)

 

Corrected.. the info labels used should be below the line.

In evidence custody.. Both of Hayden chutes.

1. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 26 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO: 226, DATE OF MFR 9/57 (1957) --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (Hayden got this one back)

2. MAKE: Pioneer TYPE: 24 ft white ripstop conical, SERIAL NO:  260-9707, DATE OF MFR: 7/60 (1960)  --- packed by Cossey 5/21/71 (This back chute was left on the plane, ID'd by National Guard in Reno)

 

#1 (1957) Went back to Hayden (tan one)

#2 (1960) Was left on the plane and in evidence 11/26/71

There is no way Cooper took one of the two of Hayden's back chutes.

 

Back chute returned to Hayden (1957)..

dbc-parachutes-hayden-card-pararchute-identification-4.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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Boomshki,,,

Cooper's tie was "Dacron Polyester".. many of the found tie particles match those used in the manufacturing process for Dacron.. in other words, many of those rare particles were already on the tie when new. The rare tie particle chase is a bit of a red herring.

 

Tom Kaye needs to test another Pennys 1965 era "Dacron Polyester" clipon tie.. to determine which particles may have come from the manufacturing process.

 

FBI file 26 p 8570

Black Snap-On Tie and Tie Tack

An examination of the tie by the writers revealed noticeable amounts of dust in the inner knot area. In addition to the markings "3 Penneys”, two other labels were found as follows: "Snapper Pat. 2972750. It's a snap to snap on"; and "100% Dacron Polyester Washable RN 16484". From writers' experience in Theft From Interstate Shipment cases Penneys merchandise, it is known that the RN number is a manufacturer's code. Penneys headquarters will be able to determine where the was manufactured, when imported and which stores this tie. 

----

 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/55/b8/56/ea754678a56895/US2984576.pdf

Zirconia and hafnia sols or finely divided powders can be used as binding agents in a wide variety of applications. These can range from refractories in which the zirconia or hafnia serve to bind components together to plastic material in which they serve a similar function. Likewise, they can be used to bind organic acids or other organic compounds such as dyes

 

It is especialy effective with synthetic polyacrylonitrile fibers such as
"Orlon,” 'Dacron’ polyester, and nylon polyamide types. 

 

"Generally zirconia or hafnia particles will be used with refractory metal oxides and sulfides, refractory interstitial type compounds of carbon and nitrogen intermetallics of rare earths and refractory metals.

Refractory compositions including refractory metal oxides can be made with such oxides as aluminum oxide, barium oxide, beryllium oxide, calcium oxide, cerium oxide, chromic oxide, cobaltus oxide, gallium oxide, lanthanum oxide, magnesium oxide, maganese oxide MnO, maganous oxide, neodymium oxide, nickel oxide, silica niobium oxide, strontium oxide, tantalum oxide, thorium oxide, titanium dioxide and titanium suboxides such as TiO, stannic oxide, tungstic oxide, uranium dioxide, vanadium oxides, VO, VO2, VO2VO3, yttrium oxide, zinc oxide, and cadmium oxide. Of the above, zirconia and hafnia will ordinarily be used most desirably with alumina. silica, ceria, titania, magnesia, thoria and calcia."

 

 

 

 

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5
On 4/20/2019 at 1:04 AM, dudeman17 said:

Dropzone.com is a skydiving website. I'm a skydiver. I'm going to tell a story about skydivers. This happened some years ago.

For background, skydivers, like many adventure sports enthusiasts, like to video stuff. These days, those lightweight tiny Go-Pros are everywhere. But before they came about, back when those handheld camcorders were the thing, if a skydiver wanted to video stuff they had to set up a helmet with a camcorder mounted on the top. There's also a piece of skydiving gear that is known as a Dytter. It's a little thing about the size of a matchbook that you'd also mount on your helmet, and what it does is, you set it for a certain altitude and on the way down it beeps in your ear. You wouldn't want to rely on it for your life, but it's a handy little back-up reminder. Any skydiver would instantly recognize one, pretty much nobody else would.

Anyways, where I was living, there was a ski hill not far away. Small place, not too popular, but it had some good steep runs and I could be there in an hour. So one day, like many, I went there by myself to get some runs in. After one particular run, I pull up to the chairlift line and there were these four guys ahead of me, and one of them had a helmet cam on. Didn't recognize any of them, but I says, 'Gee, that's cool, got a camera there to film your friends skiing...' They kinda half-heartedly turned around, 'Yeah, sure..' turned back amongst themselves. 'But', I continue, 'just where on the hill does that Dytter go off?' They all quickly turned around, looked at me with much more interest. 'What? You know what a Dytter is? You jump?'...

Turns out they were jumpers from a different dropzone I hadn't been to, but we ended up skiing together for the day. I visited them at their dz, we all became friends. A couple years later, one of them went in. I was on his ash dive, and I cried...

 

Camaraderie over a shared interest. It's fuckin' cool. You guys should try it.

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Goin' jumpin' tomorrow...

Cool story Dudeman, but very sad to hear that one of your ski slope skydive buddies went in.

Camcorders and Dytters? When I started it was heavy WW2 surplus gun movie cameras that shot 16 mm film, not tape. Most of the gun cams required 24 volts DC to run, necessitating really heavy battery packs. There were a few 12 volt ones but they were very scarce and pricey. Developing 16 mm film was expensive, Every frame had to count. You didn't just leave it on and edit later. 

Steve Snyder made the first commercially successful audible altitude alert called the PARALERT. It had inadequate volume, I rarely heard mine amidst the freight train roar of freefall. 

Good to see fellow skydivers posting. We seem to bitch a little less than regular folks.

377

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