DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

skyjack71

Since I do not read much of what is being said on that thread - I had no idea they were finally entertaining the idea that the money had been planted in 1979.

. . . . .

Looking back - this is a LOVE story as much as it is a search for the truth. Two unlikely individuals & one with a secret life. How or why we ended up to gether - I will never understand...

Jo, I was referring to an earlier post on this DZ thread. If you had bothered to read it, you quite possibility would have noticed that the poster suggested that the Tina Bar money had been planted in late 1979. And you have repeatedly made that same claim yourself including that it was Duane who planted it in 1979.

So your Cooper book is going to be a love story. When will it be coming out?

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

My daughters appearance & Tina's are so damn similar it is spooky. Even her recent pictures - those 2 could have been sisters.

I have alway felt Tina held back on her knowledge of Cooper. Her words to me
"Cooper was a very SAD man"....therefore Cooper had to have said something that indicated he was SAD.

I will always believe that Tina & Cooper exchanged information never made public or revealed by Tina. Tina even in her fear reached out to Cooper & he never ever forgot it nor did he forget her face & features. They were imbedded in his mind, because if he died the last face he would ever see was the that of Tina.

Duane found that image of his angel in my daughter. She looked like Tina.

Duane and I moved to CO from GA with my daughter in MID term - he was the best of fathers - the greatest. My daughter will be burying her real father this week-end but, she will never have the memories of him that Duane and she built. Tina is much older than my daughter, but the appearance even as they aged - they could have been sisters.

My guts tells me I am right...my heart tells me Tina and Duane connected on that night of Nov 1971 & that she alone changed one man's life forever.

Something changed this multi time criminal in to a hardworking honest businessman...& it was not just age or illness. It was a deeper drive - much deeper. A drive to keep a promise.

Now that I think about it - my daughter melted his heart - he would look at her and see Tina - the girl he terrorized for 3 plus hours.......................he spent the rest of his life trying to do the right thing. When he looked at my daughter he was seeing Tina.

Yes I agree - I think Duane did attempt to contact Tina & it was at the time the FBI realized Cooper was alive so Tina goes into a convent....but, I cannot find a window of time Duane could have done that on our trip.

Tina's residency in Gresham - which Bruce Claims I do NOT believe. She may have had a few problems after the divorce trying to find herself, but that is all. It was my understanding she WORKED there. She did NOT live within the confines of the facility! Now maybe Brucie can explain that.

Maybe hearing that Tina had been emotionally affected Cooper wanted to let her know he survived, but I do not think he would have risked contacting her and he certainly did not have a window of time to do so in 1979 on that trip.

He went missing for a period of time from The Dalles but we were on our way to Seattle so why would he do that.
He was soiled after his little trip that morning - he told me he had gone to see a woman whose husband had died and she wanted him to move some things in the shed and there was some rotten wood....and things had gotten wet. That is all he told me.

Where ever he went he was able to go and come within a 4 to 5 hour period of time. He went to see a woman but it was not Tina. I believe it was the widow of Ford whose name was Mildred.
He had owned the Air Park Sevice before he died after the skyjacking.

He was investigated in the incident, but he had an alibi.

I do know Mildred Ford's husband died and I believe he went to see her.
I would love to know where she was living in 1979 & to see a picture of her.

I believe she was the other Mildred I knew in Fla whose next husband was also with AWARE. She and Duane became pretty tight up until he died.

Duane pointed out a tower behind the Air Park and told me he at one time attached something to that tower. Was that tower there in 1971. It was there in 1979.

Then I find out yrs later that the Mildred I met was at one time married to Mr. Ford. Too many co-incidences.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

RobertMBlevins

Robert99 says in part:

Quote

'How do you explain away the fact that the money, which was found in 1980, was buried under flood waters and sand during the 79-80 winter?...'

Everyone knows when the money was found. What flood? Do you have some data that the Columbia reached flood stage at that time? If so, the data below doesn't show it for that year. Sixteen feet or below for the Columbia usually doesn't cause a problem.

[Additional Blevins provided information on Columbia River flooding has been deleted as not relevant to the Cooper hijacking.]

Blevins, If you had been paying attention to the previous five or six years of posts on this thread you would know that the nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 to 7 feet above sea level with a tidal effect of less than 2 feet.

And you should also know that the daily high and low water levels on the Columbia River at the US Army Corps of Engineers Vancouver gage are available online for the period from November 1, 1974 through the money find date in February 1980.

On February 12, 1980, which was the first day that the FBI agents were at Tina Bar, the Vancouver gage had a maximum of 4.5 feet above and a minimum of 2.6 feet above sea level.

Tina Bar is about 10 miles downstream from that gage and the water level there will be about 0.5 foot lower than at the gage. Thus, the water level at Tina Bar on February 12, 1980 was between 4.0 and 2.1 feet above sea level.

Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location. So water levels of 10 feet or higher at Tina Bar are the ones of interest.

All indications point to Cooper being a no-pull who impacted on reasonably dry land just upstream of Tina Bar. This includes the possibility that he impacted on Caterpillar Island.

The vegetation on Caterpillar Island and the adjacent shore lines on the east side of the river (which runs north and south at Tina Bar) includes extremely heavy areas of briars. Meyer Louie, an individual you love to disparage, can back me up on that.

Water action is the only believable mechanism for the money to arrive at Tina Bar. And I believe Georger, another individual you love to disparage, supports the water mechanism.

The water level has to reach the money and have sufficient current forces to free it from any constraints before it can move the money downstream. Consequently, this water level must be about 10 feet above sea level plus whatever additional height that is required to reach the money bag and whatever is left of Cooper and the equipment he had with him.

At the present time, there is nothing that can be added to the above.

Robert99

[thousandthings 0]

***This 'flood of 79-80' could be another Cooper myth, kind of like the one that says there was a big storm the night Cooper jumped...which the records at Weather Underground for November 24, 1971 debunk as well.




Are you saying it was a clear night? Or am I not getting it correct?

[BruceSmith 3]

RobertMBlevins

This Search Data Site shows nothing close to flood stage between June 16, 1979 and January 16, 1980. You can go there and set your own dates, get the historical data.

This 'flood of 79-80' could be another Cooper myth, kind of like the one that says there was a big storm the night Cooper jumped...which the records at Weather Underground for November 24, 1971 debunk as well.

Spoken with the authority only a man who wasn't at the 2011 Symposium can provide. Multiple speakers at the conference made compelling personal statements about the severity of the weather.

You're saying they all lied?

I was there. They sounded very truthful to me.

Can I resolve the conflicting information? Nope. It's just another instance of where facts have to held in abeyance until more information comes in.

We could be looking at profound fluctuations of weather locally. Microbursts? Microclimates? The weirdness of PNW weather?

[Robert99 37]

BruceSmith

Multiple speakers at the conference made compelling personal statements about the severity of the weather.
. . . . .

I was there. They sounded very truthful to me.

Can I resolve the conflicting information? Nope. It's just another instance of where facts have to held in abeyance until more information comes in.

We could be looking at profound fluctuations of weather locally. Microbursts? Microclimates? The weirdness of PNW weather?

Bruce, About the first thing I did when I got interested in the Cooper hijacking and joined this thread in early 2009 was to do an analysis of the Portland area weather.

At the time I did the analysis I did not have access to all of the weather information that Ckret had placed online, and which I didn't know about then. Specifically, I did not have access to the printed forecasts that he provided.

I used the actual reported weather from various ground stations, including that in the transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, and the conditions reported by the NWA crew while in flight.

Keep in mind that the overcast at 5000 feet was the highest reported cloud layer in that weather information. The airliner flew at 10,000 feet while in Washington and Oregon. Consequently, there is nothing in the weather information to indicate that the airliner even flew in clouds during the cruise phase of flight.

Before takeoff from Seattle, the airliner was advised that they might encounter light icing conditions in Southern Oregon, and I think they did in fact do so.

Basically, the weather in the immediate area of Portland was colder than standard, the atmospheric pressure was greater than standard, and the humidity was very high. The end result of all of this was that the "air density" was greater than standard which improved the airliner's performance at 10,000 feet (it though it was flying at a slightly lower altitude).

There is evidence in the weather information that a front had passed Seattle several hours before the airliner took off for Reno. The atmospheric pressure at Seattle at the time of the takeoff was standard sea level or slightly higher. And the pressure increased at ever station the airliner passed as it flew through Washington and Oregon.

This higher than standard, and increasing, atmospheric pressure is a major indicator of a stable air mass. Additionally, the cold temperatures also increased the stability of the air mass.

Microbursts are completely out of the question for that evening in the Portland area. Microclimates don't mean anything here. You and your next-door neighbor may have different microclimates. And I don't think the PNW weather that I have seen over the past 60+ years is really that weird.

On the matter of the famous Captain Bohan. I don't know where the good Captain was on the evening of the hijacking, but the weather he is claimed to have reported was nowhere in the Portland area.

Overall, the weather encountered by the airliner on its flight from Seattle to Reno was nothing out of the ordinary. The Boeing 727, with three rated pilots in the cockpit, should not have had any problems with the weather. Essentially, it should have been just another night at the office.

Finally, no more weather information from the evening of the hijacking is going to come home. It is all here right now.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

RobertMBlevins

This Search Data Site shows nothing close to flood stage between June 16, 1979 and January 16, 1980. You can go there and set your own dates, get the historical data.

This 'flood of 79-80' could be another Cooper myth, kind of like the one that says there was a big storm the night Cooper jumped...which the records at Weather Underground for November 24, 1971 debunk as well.

EXCELLENT INFORMATION: DUANE AND I WERE IN SEATTLE - THE END OF SEPT OR BEGINNING OF OCT....FOR A CONVENTION WITH FAMILY LIFE INSURANCE.

THE MAIN GUY AT THE COMPANY WAS MAX AND HE WAS STILL TAKING THE FERRY OVER TO THE MAIN LAND

THEREFORE IF THERE WAS NOT FLOODING IN THE VANCOUVER AREA FROM SEPT OF 1979 TO FEB OF 1980 THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY THAT MONEY GOT ON TINA'S BAR. IT WAS PLACED THERE BY DUANE L. WEBER BEFORE WE LEFT THE STATE OF WA IN THAT TIME FRAME OF SEPT/OCT 1979!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

RobertMBlevins

******This Search Data Site shows nothing close to flood stage between June 16, 1979 and January 16, 1980. You can go there and set your own dates, get the historical data.

This 'flood of 79-80' could be another Cooper myth, kind of like the one that says there was a big storm the night Cooper jumped...which the records at Weather Underground for November 24, 1971 debunk as well.

Spoken with the authority only a man who wasn't at the 2011 Symposium can provide. Multiple speakers at the conference made compelling personal statements about the severity of the weather.

You're saying they all lied?

I was there. They sounded very truthful to me.

Can I resolve the conflicting information? Nope. It's just another instance of where facts have to held in abeyance until more information comes in.

We could be looking at profound fluctuations of weather locally. Microbursts? Microclimates? The weirdness of PNW weather?

On the day of the hijacking, I was living about twenty miles south of the SeaTac Airport. My brother and I also ran the family farm there, so we paid a great deal of attention to the weather.

On that particular day, it was mostly misty rain around Seattle, with very light winds. Weather Underground dot com actually shows that at 8PM that evening, precipitation was light and the winds were the lowest they had been all day. Not storm conditions as Ralph Himmelsbach and others at whatever conventions (forty years later) have claimed. The data presented by Weather Underground, which comes from the official records from both PDX (Portland) and Seattle, (SeaTac) are virtually the same.

This data is easily found both on NWS sites and Weather Underground. People who claim otherwise, going against the official reports...are not lying. They are simply mistaken.

Conditions in the Portland area at 8PM on Hijacking Evening:

Pressure: 30.00 and rising for the next two hours, until 10PM.

Temperature: 47 degrees

Winds: SE at 5MPH

Rain: Yes, but only two tenths of an inch for the entire day.

Conclusion: Not storm conditions.

Okay, but can you explain the following:

1. Bohan says winds gusted up to 60 knots or so, from due south, five minutes after 305 cleared out of the PDX area.

2. Dona Elliott says it was raining sideways that night and she couldn't see across her residential street.

3. Meyer Louie says he was afraid for his life on I-84 driving through the gorge.

4. Amboy resident, Margaret Culp, told me the weather was "terrible" that night.

5. Another woman at the Symposium said the weather was "fierce" as she drove north on I-5 north through Portland.

I'm not saying you're wrong or the NWS is incorrect. I'm saying variable conditions are reported in the LZ on the night in question and deserve to be included in our calculations and speculations.

[BruceSmith 3]

skyjack71

***This Search Data Site shows nothing close to flood stage between June 16, 1979 and January 16, 1980. You can go there and set your own dates, get the historical data.

This 'flood of 79-80' could be another Cooper myth, kind of like the one that says there was a big storm the night Cooper jumped...which the records at Weather Underground for November 24, 1971 debunk as well.

EXCELLENT INFORMATION: DUANE AND I WERE IN SEATTLE - THE END OF SEPT OR BEGINNING OF OCT....FOR A CONVENTION WITH FAMILY LIFE INSURANCE.

THE MAIN GUY AT THE COMPANY WAS MAX AND HE WAS STILL TAKING THE FERRY OVER TO THE MAIN LAND

THEREFORE IF THERE WAS NOT FLOODING IN THE VANCOUVER AREA FROM SEPT OF 1979 TO FEB OF 1980 THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY THAT MONEY GOT ON TINA'S BAR. IT WAS PLACED THERE BY DUANE L. WEBER BEFORE WE LEFT THE STATE OF WA IN THAT TIME FRAME OF SEPT/OCT 1979!

Okay, Jo. So, why did he do it?

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"Bruce, About the first think I did when I got interested in the Cooper hijacking and joined this thread in early 2009 was to do an analysis of the Portland area weather.

At the time I did the analysis I did not have access to all of the weather information that Ckret had placed online, and which I didn't know about then. Specifically, I did not have access to the printed forecasts that he provided.

I used the actual reported weather from various ground stations, including that in the transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, and the conditions reported by the NWA crew while in flight.

Keep in mind that the overcast at 5000 feet was the highest reported cloud layer in that weather information. The airliner flew at 10,000 feet while in Washington and Oregon. Consequently, there is nothing in the weather information to indicate that the airliner even flew in clouds during the cruise phase of flight.

Before takeoff from Seattle, the airliner was advised that they might encounter light icing conditions in Southern Oregon, and I think they did in fact do so.

Basically, the weather in the immediate area of Portland was colder than standard, the atmospheric pressure was greater than standard, and the humidity was very high. The end result of all of this was that the "air density" was greater than standard which improved the airliner's performance at 10,000 feet (it though it was flying at a slightly lower altitude).

There is evidence in the weather information that a front had passed Seattle several hours before the airliner took off for Reno. The atmospheric pressure at Seattle at the time of the takeoff was standard sea level or slightly higher. And the pressure increased at ever station the airliner passed as it flew through Washington and Oregon.

This higher than standard, and increasing, atmospheric pressure is a major indicator of a stable air mass. Additionally, the cold temperatures also increased the stability of the air mass.

Microbursts are completely out of the question for that evening in the Portland area. Microclimates don't mean anything here. You and your next-door neighbor may have different microclimates. And I don't think the PNW weather that I have seen over the past 60+ years is really that weird.

On the matter of the famous Captain Bohan. I don't know where the good Captain was on the evening of the hijacking, but the weather he is claimed to have reported was nowhere in the Portland area.

Overall, the weather encountered by the airliner on its flight from Seattle to Reno was nothing out of the ordinary. The Boeing 727, with three rated pilots in the cockpit, should not have had any problems with the weather. Essentially, it should have been just another night at the office.

Finally, no more weather information from the evening of the hijacking is going to come home. It is all here right now.

Robert99

Excellent synopsis, Robert Nine-Nine. Thank you.

But what do you make of the reports of outlandish weather?

Fuzzy memories due to age? The lure of Cooper fame? The Vortex is at work again?

By the way: Can anyone tell me how and why Bohan and his Continental flight was allowed to creep up five minutes behind 305 AND its complement of trailing F-106, a T-33, and Himmelsbach's Chinook while plenty o' other craft were sweating it out in holding patterns or parked on some stranger's tarmac?

To me that seems dangerous. Was Bohan a cowboy or Continental stupid? I spoke with his wife a while back. Maybe it's time for a follow-up phone call.

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location.

Robert99

YOU NEED TO RETHINK ALL OF THAT.
THE MONEY WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE TREE FOLIAGE. THIS WAS DISCUSSION BETWEEN FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH IN MY PRESENCE IN 2001.

THE CREW WAS EAST OF US FILMING THE AREA. THE 3 OF US WHERE TOGETHER. FAZIO MENTION THE SIZE OF THE TREES..."IF IT HAD BEEN IN 2001 THE MONEY FIND WOULD HAVE BEEN UNDER THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREES...BUT NOT IN 1979 OR IN 1980".

THE QUOTE IS NOT HIS EXACT WORDING BUT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS SAID.

I WAS STANDING WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND. I REMEMBERED ALL OF THIS & ONLY FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH & I WERE PRESENT AT THAT MOMENT. WE HAD LINGERED BEHIND THE CREW WHILE THEY MOVED FORWARD TO THE EAST WITH THEIR EQUIPMENT.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

skyjack71

***Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location.

Robert99

YOU NEED TO RETHINK ALL OF THAT.
THE MONEY WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE TREE FOLIAGE. THIS COMES FROM A DISCUSSION BETWEEN FAZIO AND HIMMELSBACH IN MY PRESENCE IN 2001.

THE CREW WAS EAST OF US FILMING THE AREA. THE THREE OF US WHERE TOGETHER. FAZIO MENTION THE SIZE OF THE TREES..."IF IT HAD BEEN IN 2001 THE MONEY FIND WOULD HAVE BEEN UNDER THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREES...BUT NOT IN 1979 OR IN 1980".

THE QUOTE IS NOT HIS EXACT WORDING BUT WHAT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS SAID.

I WAS STANDING WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND.

So, Jo, why did you let your husband throw the money away? You didn't ask or challenge him? Why not?

Must have be strange to stand on the spot where your money was found. I wonder if Himms thought of arresting you as an accessory. You ever worry about that?

[Robert99 37]

BruceSmith

Quote

"Bruce, About the first think I did when I got interested in the Cooper hijacking and joined this thread in early 2009 was to do an analysis of the Portland area weather.

At the time I did the analysis I did not have access to all of the weather information that Ckret had placed online, and which I didn't know about then. Specifically, I did not have access to the printed forecasts that he provided.

I used the actual reported weather from various ground stations, including that in the transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, and the conditions reported by the NWA crew while in flight.

Keep in mind that the overcast at 5000 feet was the highest reported cloud layer in that weather information. The airliner flew at 10,000 feet while in Washington and Oregon. Consequently, there is nothing in the weather information to indicate that the airliner even flew in clouds during the cruise phase of flight.

Before takeoff from Seattle, the airliner was advised that they might encounter light icing conditions in Southern Oregon, and I think they did in fact do so.

Basically, the weather in the immediate area of Portland was colder than standard, the atmospheric pressure was greater than standard, and the humidity was very high. The end result of all of this was that the "air density" was greater than standard which improved the airliner's performance at 10,000 feet (it though it was flying at a slightly lower altitude).

There is evidence in the weather information that a front had passed Seattle several hours before the airliner took off for Reno. The atmospheric pressure at Seattle at the time of the takeoff was standard sea level or slightly higher. And the pressure increased at ever station the airliner passed as it flew through Washington and Oregon.

This higher than standard, and increasing, atmospheric pressure is a major indicator of a stable air mass. Additionally, the cold temperatures also increased the stability of the air mass.

Microbursts are completely out of the question for that evening in the Portland area. Microclimates don't mean anything here. You and your next-door neighbor may have different microclimates. And I don't think the PNW weather that I have seen over the past 60+ years is really that weird.

On the matter of the famous Captain Bohan. I don't know where the good Captain was on the evening of the hijacking, but the weather he is claimed to have reported was nowhere in the Portland area.

Overall, the weather encountered by the airliner on its flight from Seattle to Reno was nothing out of the ordinary. The Boeing 727, with three rated pilots in the cockpit, should not have had any problems with the weather. Essentially, it should have been just another night at the office.

Finally, no more weather information from the evening of the hijacking is going to come home. It is all here right now.

Robert99

Excellent synopsis, Robert Nine-Nine. Thank you.

But what do you make of the reports of outlandish weather?

Fuzzy memories due to age? The lure of Cooper fame? The Vortex is at work again?

By the way: Can anyone tell me how and why Bohan and his Continental flight was allowed to creep up five minutes behind 305 AND its complement of trailing F-106, a T-33, and Himmelsbach's Chinook while plenty o' other craft were sweating it out in holding patterns or parked on some stranger's tarmac?

To me that seems dangerous. Was Bohan a cowboy or Continental stupid? I spoke with his wife a while back. Maybe it's time for a follow-up phone call.

Bruce, we need a good investigative reporter to check into those stories. Are you up to it?

As I remember the story about Bohan, he took off from Seattle four minutes after the hijacked airliner. If this is true and Bohan was on V-23, then he passed NWA 305 long before it got to the Portland area.

However, in all probability, Bohan was on V-23E (now known as V-495) which ran straight from the Seattle to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTACS. He would not have been anywhere near the hijacked airliner and the other aircraft involved in chasing it. Incidentally, Himmelsbach was in a Huey helicopter and not a Chinook.

If you speak to Bohan's wife again, please ask her to get his flight log books out and find the entry for the Seattle to Portland flight. Then ask her for the takeoff and landing times, the route of the flight, and any other information that is contained in that logbook for that day.

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

skyjack71

***Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location.

Robert99

YOU NEED TO RETHINK ALL OF THAT.
THE MONEY WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE TREE FOLIAGE. THIS WAS DISCUSSION BETWEEN FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH IN MY PRESENCE IN 2001.

THE CREW WAS EAST OF US FILMING THE AREA. THE 3 OF US WHERE TOGETHER. FAZIO MENTION THE SIZE OF THE TREES..."IF IT HAD BEEN IN 2001 THE MONEY FIND WOULD HAVE BEEN UNDER THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREES...BUT NOT IN 1979 OR IN 1980".

THE QUOTE IS NOT HIS EXACT WORDING BUT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS SAID.

I WAS STANDING WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND. I REMEMBERED ALL OF THIS & ONLY FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH & I WERE PRESENT AT THAT MOMENT. WE HAD LINGERED BEHIND THE CREW WHILE THEY MOVED FORWARD TO THE EAST WITH THEIR EQUIPMENT.

Jo, You continue to operate in the knee-jerk mode.

If you would even read the quote which you gave, you would realize that I said that pictures of the agents indicated that they were some distance from the river water and several feet above that water. And if you had bothered to look at those pictures, which have been publicly available for at least 30 years now in such books as Tosaw's and Himmelsbach's, you would have seen that they were near the tree line.

But for the record, Duane Weber did not have anything to do with the Cooper hijacking, he did not plant any money at Tina Bar, and your claims to the contrary are baloney. Do we understand each other?

Robert99

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

"...As I remember the story about Bohan, he took off from Seattle four minutes after the hijacked airliner. If this is true and Bohan was on V-23, then he passed NWA 305 long before it got to the Portland area.

However, in all probability, Bohan was on V-23E (now known as V-495) which ran straight from the Seattle to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTACS. He would not have been anywhere near the hijacked airliner and the other aircraft involved in chasing it. Incidentally, Himmelsbach was in a Huey helicopter and not a Chinook.

If you speak to Bohan's wife again, please ask her to get his flight log books out and find the entry for the Seattle to Portland flight. Then ask her for the takeoff and landing times, the route of the flight, and any other information that is contained in that logbook for that day.

Robert99"

Good questions.

When I last spoke with Mrs. Bohan she said she would look for her deceased husband's log book and call me. She never did, and it's been a few years, but now I know exactly what to ask her.

Thanks!

[skyjack71 0]

BruceSmith

So, Jo, why did you let your husband throw the money away? You didn't ask or challenge him? Why not?

Must have be strange to stand on the spot where your money was found. I wonder if Himms thought of arresting you as an accessory. You ever worry about that?

BRUCE, WHY DO YOU ASK SUCH STUPID QUESTIONS. IN 1979 I DIDN'T KNOW ANY THING ABOUT THE MONEY & I WAS INSTRUCTED TO STAY IN THE CAR.

JUST WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING OR OTHER WISE INDULGING IN TO ASK SUCH A STUPID QUESTION?

WHY YOUR WRITINGS ARE SO OUTLANDISH - NOT ONE TIME HAVE I EVER INDICATED I HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE MONEY IN 1979.


FOLKS I HAVE FIGURED OUT WITH DOING ALL CAPS IT IS EASIER FOR ME TO TYPE.
BUT, I AM GOING TO LOOSE THE USE OF MY HAND FOR A LONG TIME TO COME, SO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ASK ME NOW.

MY POSTING WILL BE SHORT SO IT DOESN'T GET TO BE TOO MUCH.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

ROBERT99 YOU STATED: "Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location.
-------------------------------------



JO REPLIES:

DUH! READ WHAT YOU WROTE:

"THE MONEY WAS PROBABLY SLIGHTLY UNDERWATER WHEN IT ARRIVED AT THAT LOCATION,"

IF IT WAS UNDER WATER HOW DID IT GET JUST BELOW THE TREE LINE....THE WATER WAS SEVERAL FEET FROM THE TREE LINE AND THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREE!

JUST BELOW THE TREE LINE WAS NOT UNDERWATER. YOU ARE GOING BY A PICTURE WHICH IS DECEPTIVE. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BASE YOUR STATEMENT ON. THEY WERE DIGGING ABOUT 28 FT FROM THE WATER LINE...UNLESS THE WATER WAS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT WAS IN MAY OF 2001.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

skyjack71

ROBERT99 YOU STATED: "Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location.
-------------------------------------



JO REPLIES:

DUH! READ WHAT YOU WROTE:

"THE MONEY WAS PROBABLY SLIGHTLY UNDERWATER WHEN IT ARRIVED AT THAT LOCATION,"

IF IT WAS UNDER WATER HOW DID IT GET JUST BELOW THE TREE LINE....THE WATER WAS SEVERAL FEET FROM THE TREE LINE AND THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREE!

JUST BELOW THE TREE LINE WAS NOT UNDERWATER. YOU ARE GOING BY A PICTURE WHICH IS DECEPTIVE. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BASE YOUR STATEMENT ON. THEY WERE DIGGING ABOUT 28 FT FROM THE WATER LINE...UNLESS THE WATER WAS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT WAS IN MAY OF 2001.

Jo, Just read my posts #57230 and #57250, which were replies to posts from you, and post #57238 which was a reply to a post from Blevins.

The above three posts answer your questions. Including how the money got to the point where it was found.

You were NOT standing at the money find location in 2001 unless you were out over the river water itself. It has been discussed for years on this thread that erosion has destroyed the money find location.

Or to put it another way, the horizontal location of the money find is now out over the water and the vertical location is an invisible point that is several feet above the river water level. The money find location is just a point in empty space at the present time.

So unless you were levitating you were not actually at the money find location in 2001.

Tom Kaye has done experiments that show that money will sink to the bottom of a water source after a few minutes and stay there.

Cooper's impact point had to be above the level of the money find location. For the first several days after his death, Cooper and the money bag plus parachute and anything else that he had with him would probably be capable of floating if the water reached his level. But no such thing apparently occurred.

Cooper's biological deterioration would probably require a handful of weeks during that winter. But when the water reached his level after the deterioration, his bones and equipment would not capable of floating. Consequently, when the water action was sufficient to move his remains, those remains would be moved underwater on the bottom and along the shore line of the river.

And the water level at the time the money was deposited at the point where it was later found would be several feet higher than the money find elevation.

Also, if the remains started their journey very far from the money find location, they would probably have had a tendency to move into deeper water. This suggests that the money didn't move very far along the river before it ended up at Tina Bar.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

You were NOT standing at the money find location in 2001 unless you were out over the river water itself. It has been discussed for years on this thread that erosion has destroyed the money find location.

BULLSHIT. WHERE YOU THERE IN 2001.
I WAS AND THE MOVIE CREW AND MR.HIMMELSBACH....DO YOU THINK THEY STAGED THAT?

NO THEY DID NOT STAGE THAT FOR MY BENEFIT....IT WAS REAL AND IT HAPPENED AND I WAS THERE.

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TODAY...MAYBE IT IS UNDERWATER NOW BUT IT WAS NOT UNDERWATER IN 2001 OR IN 1979.

YOU WILL HAVE TO PROVE THIS MR KNOWITALL.

IT HAS BEEN 15 YRS AND THAT SITE WAS STILL ABOVE WHAT AND THE FENCE WAS STILL THERE AND 2 OF THE TREES WERE STILL THERE JUST AS THEY WERE IN THE PICTURES.

JUST WHAT KIND OF FANTASY ARE YOU TRYING TO CREATE....?????

PERHAPS YOU NEED TO TALK TO THE OLD TIMER WHO WHERE THERE....IN 2001 AND ONE OF THEM WAS ONLY 18 YRS OLD IN 2001...HE KNOWS AND HE HAS BEEN BACK.
HE WAS BORN AND RAISED THERE AND HE HAS BEEN ON THIS THREAD BUT I WILL NOT ID HIM.

YOU ARE LIEING AND YOU KNOW IT.
WHY? REMEMBER IN 2001 I WAS THERE AND THE SITE WAS THERE. A FENCE WAS JUST BEHIND THE TREES.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST 15 YRS BUT I KNOW WHAT WAS THERE IN 2001....

IF I HAD THE MONEY AND MY HEALTH WOULD PERMIT IT I WOULD BE ON A PLANE. I HATE TO CONTACT MR. H BECAUSE OF HIS HEALTH, BUT I WILL BE CALLING HIM TO SEE HOW HE IS DOING.

I WILL BE CALLING ANOTHER MAN WHO STILL LIVE THERE AND SEE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY...MAYBE HE KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS THE ACTUAL PIC....

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS - I HAVE TO ASSUME YOU ARE CONNECTED TO THE NAYSAYERS - THOSE WHOSE ONLY OBJECTIVE IS TO COVER UP THE TRUTHS.
PROVE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WITH DATED PICTURES....

PROVE THE SITE WAS UNDER WATER IN 2001....PROVE IT OR JUST BE GONE FOR THE STORY TELLER YOU ARE.

REMEMBER I AM TYPING IN CAP BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN AT THIS TIME - IT IS NOT A PROJECTION OF ANGER. I AM VERY LIMITED ON HAND MOVEMENT AND I FOUND OUT THE CAPS KEEP ME FROM HAVING TO MAKE THE MOVEMENT THAT IS SO PAINFUL.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[73blazer 0]

RobertMBlevins

Next thing you know they are ground-searching in the Ariel area, which is also quite a distance from either the Columbia River or Tina Bar. Information on the flight's path was obtained by radar sources, chase planes, crew communications, whatever data you choose to use. NWA and the FBI, as well as the military out of Lewis/McChord had some time to prepare for all this, since the plane was on the ground at SeaTac for some time. And the brains behind a lot of this effort was NWA's Director of Flight Operations Paul Soderlind, a guy enshrined in the Minnesota Aviation Hall of Fame. He developed things still used in aviation today and was certainly no slouch. What makes you believe you are smarter than him, and know where 305 actually was at any given time during the flight?

Which is going back to what I've said. If you believe the money ended up in Tina bar thru natural means, you have to be willing to throw away the fight path and jump time considerably. I'm just not willing to make that leap. That flight was being watched, period. The flight path data and jump time are very reasonably correct.

[Robert99 37]

skyjack71

BULLSHIT.

Jo, the quote above describes your post correctly.

You have not produced a single piece of information that supports your claims about Duane Weber in your alleged 17 years of investigating his past.

Didn't you and Duane get interested in the Cooper hijacking while you were living in Virginia Beach, VA and long before his death and your allegations that Duane told you he was Cooper?

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

RobertMBlevins

LOL Department: Drop a little truth on people or challenge the hate-mongers...they fall to frickin' pieces.
They HAVE no answer to simple logic. It grows silent because truth is a hard thing to face, especially when you hang out with subjective people and never challenge a thing they say, no matter how ridiculous. I never take sides on truth based on personalities. I make those judgments on what is presented by someone, not whether I like them particularly or not. As far as the truth on anything Cooper, I have no agenda. The truth is an entity unto itself, and takes a blind eye to personalities, whom I like or don't like, or anything else. It simply IS.

Blevins, In view of your quote above, how about posting something that actually supports your claims about KC being Cooper.

Specifically, I think it would be nice if your 8 year old witness to KC supposedly making the actual bomb used in the hijacking on the dinning room table 43+ years ago spoke up about how all that came about.

It would also be nice if she explained how she acquired her knowledge of bombs and how many she actually saw both before and after she saw KC at work on one.

Robert99

[Robert99 37]

73blazer

Which is going back to what I've said. If you believe the money ended up in Tina bar thru natural means, you have to be willing to throw away the fight path and jump time considerably. I'm just not willing to make that leap. That flight was being watched, period. The flight path data and jump time are very reasonably correct.

Blazer,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you said in your first post here that you had read all the previous posts in this thread. You apparently missed some.

In reference to the so-called "FBI map", Ralph Himmelsbach is reported to have said that he had NEVER seen that map until recently. Other posters have said that the individual who posted that map here was actually asking where it originated and not representing it as being anything "official".

Perhaps you have noticed some difficulties with the times and locations that are shown on that map. For instance, an airliner flying at constant ground speed does not travel 3 nautical miles in one minute and then 6 nautical miles in the very next minute.

If you have read the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center's transcripts of the radio communications between the Center and the hijacked airliner as it flew from Seattle until it was handed off to the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center in Northern California, you may have noticed some omissions.

All information in the Seattle ATC transcripts that could be used to pinpoint the location of the airliner have been redacted.

You need to take a look at the Oakland ATC transcripts to see how aircraft communications were actually conducted in 1971.

So just exactly what is your basis for claiming that the flight path shown on the so-called "FBI map" is correct?

Blazer, the ball is back in your hands. Please provide some meaningful answers here.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

***

BULLSHIT.

Jo, the quote above describes your post correctly.

You have not produced a single piece of information that supports your claims about Duane Weber in your alleged 17 years of investigating his past.

Didn't you and Duane get interested in the Cooper hijacking while you were living in Virginia Beach, VA and long before his death and your allegations that Duane told you he was Cooper?

Robert99

ROBERT CONTINUE TO ATTACK ME IN THAT MODE & U WILL PAY FOR IT.

I HAVE TOLD THE TRUTH. THE TRIP IN 1979, THE HAPPENINGS IN 1980 AFTER IT HIT THE NEWS, THE THINGS HE TOLD ME IN 1979 & THE THINGS HE TOLD ME OVER THE YRS. NOT ONE WORD OF IT IS A LIE OR CONTRIVED. IT IS NOT ALLEGATION BUT ACTUAL CONVERSATIONS & ACTUAL EVENTS.

THE LITTLE THING IN VA BCH 1983 - I HAVE EXPLAINED - SIMPLE THAT HE WAS SHOWING ME HOW TO FIND THE SHOPPING CENTER & THE GROCERY STORE & WE PASSED THE PLACE WHAT'S HIS FACE WAS KILLED AT...IT WAS JUST SOMETHING IN PASSING - just history that took place in the area.

THE ONLY OTHER THING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN REMOTELY RELATED WAS BEFORE WE LEFT VAWHEN HE CAME HOME CRAWLING DRUNK...SAYING "I am responsible for someone getting killed". He was rambling about someone getting killed & being a copy cat...I did not have a clue what he was referencing.

I went out to look at the vehicle to see if he had hit someone or had a wreck. He was the drunkest I have ever seen HIM in all of our marriage....

ONLY 2 INCIDENTS DID I EVER SEE HIM THAT DRUNK. THAT NIGHT IN VA AROUND 1983 & IN CO. THE NIGHT WE WENT OUT - WITH A COUPLE & I WANTED TO BE HOME TO WATCHING UNSOLVED MYSTERIES ABOUT THE SKYJACK....I HAD TOLD THE WOMAN I WAS SORRY FOR BEING POOR COMPANY AND THAT WE NEVER WENT OUT ON A WK - DAY AND THERE WAS A PROGRAM I WANTED TO SEE.

DUANE GOT VERY VERY DRUNK THAT NIGHT....TOO DRUNK!

If YOU KNEW ME U WOULD KNOW THAT I AM INCAPABLE OF TELLING A DIRECT LIE....I ALWAYS GOT CAUGHT. WHITE LIES TO SPARE SOMEONES FEELING, BUT NOT ACTUAL LIES. I JUST CANNOT DO IT.

I HAVE BEEN BEEN MISINTERPRETED WHEN I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN THINGS - BUT THERE WERE NO LIES INVOLVED. I GOT SEQUENCES IN THE WRONG ORDER.

TRY TO REMEMBER DETAILS FOR 18 YR AND BEFORE THAT - IT MIGHT COME OUT A LITTLE DIFFERENT ONCE IN AWHILE.... I AM ALMOST 75 - SO I DO CONFUSE THINGS ONCE IN A WHILE...BUT I DO NOT LIE AND I AM TRIED OF YOUR ACCUSATIONS..

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Robert99

.

In reference to the so-called "FBI map", Ralph Himmelsbach is reported to have said that he had NEVER seen that map until recently. Other posters have said that the individual who posted that map here was actually asking where it originated and not representing it as being anything "official".

Perhaps you have noticed some difficulties with the times and locations that are shown on that map. For instance, an airliner flying at constant ground speed does not travel 3 nautical miles in one minute and then 6 nautical miles in the very next minute.

jO STATES:JO WILL INSERT THIS:

THAT MAP IS SHOWING IN THE FIELD ON THE GROUND AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME REVISED MAPS FLOATING AROUND BY THOSE WHO ONLY WANT TO DISMISSED THE ENTIRE EVENT.

AS FOR AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL----SEATTLE HAD SOME LOANERS THERE FROM ATLANTA...BECAUSE OF SOME DISPUTE OR EQUIPMENT USEAGE OR AN UP DATE OF THE SYSTEM BEING DONE.

THERE ARE MISSING PARTS OF THE TRANSCRIPTS......

THE COMMUNICATION RECORDED BY PORTLAND ARE MISSING & REMOVED AFTER IT WAS MENTIONED OTHERS HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE TEMPS BEING USED & THE MAN WHO HAD TO RELEASE IT - DID NOT WANT TO DO SO.
HE FELT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE OF THE WORK BEING DONE ON THE SYSTEM - THERE WAS A COMMUNICATION GAP ALONG THE WAY.
ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN HIDDEN FROM THE PUBLIC FOR YRS. DUANE HAD 2 CARTRIAGES & HE PICKED UP IN ALTANTA FROM ONE OF HIS AIRTRAFFIC CONTROLLER FRIENDS & I ASKED WHAT THEY WERE. HE TOLD ME -& I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY HE WANTED THESE THINGS...HE JUST TOLD ME THEY WERE THE LAST ONES REMAINING & THAT HE WAS GOING TO DELIVER THEM TO SOMEONE ELSE ....WELL, WHEN HE DIED I STILL HAD THEM - BUT JUST DITCHED THEM. DUANE TOLD ME WHEN HER RETRIEVED THESE DISC THAT THE AIRTRAFFIC CONTROLER HAD SOME SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEM & WANTED THE ITEMS PRESERVED.....they had to do with an old airline incident....and the last remaining evidence left.

FRANKLY I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THESE THINGS WERE UNTIL I PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD...IT WAS ANOTHER OH MY GOD MOMENT.

If you have read the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center's transcripts of the radio communications between the Center and the hijacked airliner as it flew from Seattle until it was handed off to the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center in Northern California, you may have noticed some omissions.

JO STATES:PRECISELY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT

All information in the Seattle ATC transcripts that could be used to pinpoint the location of the airliner have been redacted.

NOT REDACTED - THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE THEM! LATER THEY LEARNED PORTLAND HAD TRANSCRIPTS AS THEY MONITORED THE COMMUNICATIOS AND THESE TRANSCRIPS WERE REMOVED OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF A MAN WHO WORKED THERE.

You need to take a look at the
Oakland ATC transcripts to see how aircraft communications were actually conducted in 1971.

Robert99

Robert are you the one who picked up those last transcripts copies...the FBI did not REDACT them? They simply didn't have them.....there was a qliche and they did not get all of it. What they had is when Portland stepped in - someone there was trying to record OR make transcripts of the communications but, I do not know how....those communication went POOF a few yrs ago....after the FBI learned they existed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber