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quade

DB Cooper

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Robert99

Again, the answer should be "yes". Preserving the radar tapes, plus the ATC radio tapes, and the phone conversations between controllers was normal starting very early in the radar age.



You keep speaking in generalities as if it's a given.

Again, I think you've misunderstood the question. Let me try one more time.

I'm talking about the specific ATC facility on the night in question.

Are you certain that (radar tapes, routinely preserved) was SOP in 1971 at the location in question? Would the facility have had the technical capability at that time?

Have you checked? Do you actually know? Not simply assumed. Actually checked and know.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade



You keep speaking in generalities as if it's a given.

Again, I think you've misunderstood the question. Let me try one more time.

I'm talking about the specific ATC facility on the night in question.

Have you checked? Do you actually know? Not simply assumed. Actually checked and know.



About four or five years ago, I did do some checking on the Seattle ATC capabilities. I seem to remember they had a history booklet on that facility. That should give some idea of how and when things were updated.

Now to give specific answers to your above questions:

1. Have I checked? Yes, to a certain degree.

2. Were radar tapes made and saved for the night of the hijacking? I personally do not have a conclusive answer one way or another.

3. Do you actually know? Not simply assumed. In the final analysis, no one actually "knows" anything. It is all a matter of opinion and interpretations.

More detailed answers involve implied assumptions such as that the radar in the Portland/Seattle area, which was working during the flight from Portland to Seattle during the afternoon was also working during the flight south that night.

Other implied assumptions are that all three engines on the 727 were running that evening. There is no actual "proof" that I have seen in the transcripts that such was the case. However, the flight crew reported engine fuel consumption regularly during the early part of the flight and the assumption is that all three engines were running based on that information.

There are volumes of implied assumptions in every matter whether that is recognized by people or not. And there is not enough time in the day to "validate" all of them in each instance.

Robert99

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Robert, I really don't care about 500 articles. the comments on KC page date back to 2011 showing minimal views.

you specifically quoted someone using the word psycho. you use a term Cooper nut. both equally wrong.

The "other page" simply monitors the first post for approval. You Tube has that same function. after it's approved you are free to post without monitoring.

Then once again you give a long speech about leaving the form for the 5th 6th time only to return like nothing was said days later? so, I questioned your contradictions and motives.

Thank You......
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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RobertMBlevins



I don't just quote people out of thin air, you know. I'm beginning to understand why these two got banned from DZ:

Quote

'Galen Cook says:

February 16, 2014 at 2:46 am

Good on you, Bruce. Currently, there is no forum on the internet that actually discusses new material on the Cooper case. The old DropZone forum is obsolete and outdated. Moreover, it seemed to have been taken over by a couple individuals who really have no clue about the particulars of the case. As Georger stated, the DZ had become a daily posting spot for one or two smut contributors that never let up. Then the site turned into pure junk. I’m 100% behind your efforts to launch something new. ps. keep the psychos from reporting.

Reply

MeyerLouie says:

February 16, 2014 at 6:34 pm

I like the way you think, Galen — let’s talk real Cooper research….Meyer

Reply

galen cook says:

February 16, 2014 at 10:53 pm

Thank you, Meyer. If Bruce can pull this off, we can get back down to serious discussions and research. All Bruce has to do is keep the two wackos from taking over the site with their continuances of fabrication. Nice to hear from you. Galen...'



Blevins, Do you have Bruce Smith's permission to quote such an extended passage from his web page? Did you get permission from the people who wrote what you quote?

Robert99

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Robert99

Other implied assumptions are that ...



Nobody was questioning the possible cover up of an engine out.

Somebody here did imply there was something suspicious about the fact the radar tapes no longer exist.

My question was essentially, "are you sure they existed in the first place?"
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade

***Other implied assumptions are that ...



Nobody was questioning the possible cover up of an engine out.

Somebody here did imply there was something suspicious about the fact the radar tapes no longer exist.

My question was essentially, "are you sure they existed in the first place?"

Okay, who is implying that the "radar tapes no longer exist"? Can they actually prove that?

Did the FAA radar tapes exist in the first place? Those tapes were routinely recorded and are probably on the same shelf in the FBI's "black vault" (not the "vault" on the FBI's web page) as the rest of the Cooper hijacking information.

Robert99

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Robert99

Okay, who is implying that the "radar tapes no longer exist"? Can they actually prove that?



Disregarding the "can't prove a negative" aspect.

See Post #51868.

The question should not be, "can they prove they no longer exist?"
The first question should be, "can anyone prove they existed in the first place?"
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade

***Okay, who is implying that the "radar tapes no longer exist"? Can they actually prove that?



Disregarding the "can't prove a negative" aspect.

See Post #51868.

The question should not be, "can they prove they no longer exist?"
The first question should be, "can anyone prove they existed in the first place?"

The Seattle ATC people and their records should be able to answer the question about their radar recording capabilities on the date of the hijacking. If they had that capability, and it was operative on the day of the hijacking, then that radar tape exists somewhere.

But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent.

Robert99

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Robert99

******But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent.


Said Robert, speculating.
After 42 years are you still optimistic?

I don't assume there is a conspiracy.

When people use a phrase such as, "But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent" it implies several things, but mostly a conspiracy to hide something.

I am not optimistic about the case ever being "solved," nor is that something I particularly care one way or the other about.

There are a number of parties though who are in the DB Cooper cottage industry who say they want it solved, but in reality don't really because it would mean the end to their little business of speculation of conspiracies books and once a year semi-fame of speaking in front of people.

I am pretty much anything but that.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade

*********But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent.


Said Robert, speculating.
After 42 years are you still optimistic?

I don't assume there is a conspiracy.

When people use a phrase such as, "But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent" it implies several things, but mostly a conspiracy to hide something.

I am not optimistic about the case ever being "solved," nor is that something I particularly care one way or the other about.

There are a number of parties though who are in the DB Cooper cottage industry who say they want it solved, but in reality don't really because it would mean the end to their little business of speculation of conspiracies books and once a year semi-fame of speaking in front of people.

I am pretty much anything but that.

Would the word "organization", used in the singular sense, eliminate the "conspiracy" suggestions?

You are correct that the Cooper case will probably never be "solved" in the usual sense of the word. It appears to be to late for that.

You speak words of great truth about the Cooper cottage industry.

Robert99

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"I returned because I finished editing Revenge Story, and I'm nearly done with the burlesque queen's life story ms. I was busy for a couple of days there"

Really?

"The fact is, I have had enough. Yes. After three-and-a-half years here, I'm finally deleting the thread shortcut from our office computers. Do not PM me. If you want to reach me, use my regular email. I am also disabling PM's for good."

Now, as usual you missed the point. I believe I said that you are doing the same by calling people Cooper nuts, but you seem to have a problem with someone using the word psycho. I said twice that they were both equally wrong. I don't need to debate this any longer.

you always have to go to extremes with everything. you flip flop more than anyone I know...

Good Day.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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The jump location document says radar was used, Tom Kaye supposedly saw something that made him use the word SAGE, ckret mentioned radar but specifically said that tapes were not given to the FBI.....

So we are pretty sure that radar data was available and was furnished to NW for plotting a landing area. Would this data normally be provided in tape format or would the USAF had plotted/printed the data on paper and given it to NW that way?


Excerpt from probable jump locations document posted on dz:
Quote


[inline Possible_landing_points.JPG]



per Tom Kaye:
Quote

"TK: Q: Where do you think Cooper landed?

A: The flight was monitored by SAGE radar, the most advanced radar system at the time. The plane’s route was in the archives. Because of that and the fact they went and duplicated the jump scenario in the days following the event, we see no reason he did not jump out over Ariel (Wash.)".


http://www.theolympian.com/2013/08/21/2682310/hunting-db-cooper-seattle-scientist.html



per ckret:
Quote

"As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI."

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3104383#3104383


but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

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RobertMBlevins

My budget cannot stretch to afford the F-106, but if I were to buy a jet, I would buy this one because it's old and slow, and I actually saw one flying over Olympia, Washington a few years back. I just stood there with my mouth open. Had to be privately owned.

In the film The Bridges at Toko-Ri, they showed P-80's making the attacks. But I believe that James Michener actually specified Banshees in his book.



You are almost correct Robert. What you saw was a Lockheed T33. Close cousin. There never were any civilian P80s. Boeing used a T33 as a chase plane for a while I believe.

They aren't horribly expensive. Here's a very nice one for well under 100K.

http://www.t-33.us

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Robert, sometimes dealing with you can be like dealing with a minor. where did I say the the word "psycho" was not used?

I specifically pointed out that you were accusing someone of using this word while you use the term Cooper nut. I said the two are equally wrong in my description.

the post you made clearly suggested you were leaving. you are trying to reverse things.

Here is my original quote:
"you call people Cooper nuts, Galen said psychos. who is right and who is wrong?"

Now, how much time do you wish to tie up the thread (as usual) trying to prove something you are clearly wrong on?

Have a nice day....
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Poignant stuff. I can't really directly connect Peterson's moral outrage and anguish to the "grudge" that DBC allegedly professed, but Peterson was forever altered by atrocities he witnessed in thge Mekong Delta.

His book The Idiots Frightful Laughter was part of a personal mission to inform the populace and mobilize opposition to US atrocities and war crimes. Why did he suddenly pull the book off the market?

From his writings you can see that he is an intelligent and articulate person. He also was a versatile and gutsy skydiver with a history of edgy jump exploits (e.g. home made bat wings, night water jumps, skydiving in Saigon). Add USFS smoke jumper experience, Boeing tech documents worker, and according to Saishaw, a very early interest in the mechanics of the 727 rear door and stairs.

FBI ruled him out as DBC based on DNA. If they believed his Nepal alibi why why would they have returned and insisted on a DNA sample? Eyes are blue. Character seems inconsistent with threats of violence, extortion and a large theft.

Sure wish someone well versed on NORJACK could interview him. He avoids me like the plague. Initially he was very grateful for the holiday cheer basket I sent him through Bruce, but has since labeled me as FBI/CIA and doesnt respond to any communication attempts

Quote

Sneak Attacks
By Sheridan "Pete" Peterson

December 17, 2005
Saturday

Hey Mike, promise you won't turn me over to the FBI or Homeland Security. I wouldn't want to end up at Guantanamo. I know all about torture. The CIA operatives told me all about it. Much worse than Abu Graib. I'm too old (79) to be dunked head first in a bucket of buffalo dung. My heart couldn't take it.

You're a bit rough on Kerry and Dean. Even your old man would consider your accusations a big extreme. Being of the elite and not serving in a combat unit how would you know if the GI's engaged in genocide? They all had photos in their wallets to prove it. Those 30% that actually engaged the enemy. That was the macho thing to do. Of course, Americans don't want to know about that, do they? Too disturbing? Truth hurts.

You've got this thing against Democrats. I don't like them either but for a very different reason. They're wimps. They complain about occupying a sovereign nation in order to control the oil and then they all vote to stay there, all but three. Hypocrisy. I guess.

You are probably sincere. How would you know what Kerry did in Vietnam? You weren't there. You could have been, but like Cheney, and Bush and all the rest of the Bushites, you chose not to. If you'd seen a napalm drop on a resettlement camp or village, you may feel differently. Nights have horrible nightmares if you have the sensitivity that I have. (emphasis added)
Unfortunately many of our fellow Americans don't seem to have any sensitivity. That's what Winter Soldier is all about. They thought if the American people knew the truth they'd stop the slaughter of all those millions of Vietnamese people. They were wrong. No one wants to know. Well, almost no one.

Then of course there was the Iran/Costa debacle, wasn't there. Hey, what ever happened to your ballet? That seems like a better vocation than propagandist.

Sheridan "Pete" Peterson
E-mail: [email protected]
Windsor, CA - USA



About: Sheridan "Pete" Peterson is a World War II Marine who served in the Pacific Theatre of Operation. He spent seven years in Vietnam throughout most of the War. As a refugee advisor in the Mekong Delta, he stated he witnessed atrocities on a regular basis.



377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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377

***My budget cannot stretch to afford the F-106, but if I were to buy a jet, I would buy this one because it's old and slow, and I actually saw one flying over Olympia, Washington a few years back. I just stood there with my mouth open. Had to be privately owned.

In the film The Bridges at Toko-Ri, they showed P-80's making the attacks. But I believe that James Michener actually specified Banshees in his book.



You are almost correct Robert. What you saw was a Lockheed T33. Close cousin. There never were any civilian P80s. Boeing used a T33 as a chase plane for a while I believe.

They aren't horribly expensive. Here's a very nice one for well under 100K.

http://www.t-33.us

377

What appeared to be two T-33s accompanied the Boeing 787 on its first flight.

Robert99

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Farflung

OK, so I found some information on guys who jacked out of planes AND didn’t spend the rest of their lives bragging about it! I know!

Here’s the deal. While going through flight school you are FORCED to endure training which is both bland and banal. No tests, no grades, just forced attendance which is a couple days over a denominator of two years till you arrive at a squadron as a noob. As much as jump training is the center of the universe for some, it was but a passing bit of flotsam, among a storm of flotsam in the USAF.

How does the average skydiver (code for all) jump from a plane? One ‘G’ straight and level, AND with every intent of jumping at that time. This is defined by ‘some’ as heroic and taking all the God given skills they have. In fact, it is claimed many, many times as a mantra to justify some sort of existence.

Here’s some ‘college boy’ in a situation where he’s forced to “jump”! Oh my, I’ve eaten some seat cushion! Hold me!

For this flight, where he had no intention of jumping, has shit the bed, with frothy stool, produced by the gods of improbability and system redundancy, when they have buttseks. Yep, according to all the charts and graphs, this “should NOT be happening”! Quite a different motif from the 1 G, straight and level, standing at the door, sipping latte environment, so many “self proclaimed” heroes have occupied. I wonder (code for no I don’t) who has actually experienced 2 Gs in their non-delusional lifetimes. Hmmm….

Anyway, some serious shit hits the fan and in some uncontrolled attitude of 4 – 6 Gs, a guy jacks out of his plane and……

He can’t remember.

You see he rotated the arming handles, noticed the canopy depart the airframe, then woke up on the ground. My goodness. That can’t be! He must have used all his skill and training to pull off a feat which others can only lie about. Just a few moments before he was a whuffo and now has talents which those can only brag about, in a deluded cloud of self importance.

What can be said about an F-15 jock, whom bails in a 6 G, flat spin, which was unplanned, and managed to reach the ground in a state of unconsciousness, AND uninjured? He didn’t use 21 and a half years of skill or any training. He only got a couple days of familiarity with the parachute and was a novice, crap your pants, doesn’t stand a chance, will surely die, if not for being college educated, pilot. Wow, sorta puts some perspective on all this crap about skills and whatever, since half of the Air Force ejections where done without being conscious. What does it all mean?

That people who use “all their skills” to do the same are in fact stupid? And this stupidity is backed up by the fact that they seem unaware of the number of sub-conscious ejections, in multiple G environments every year? Can a sleeping or dead person truly do what you claim to be a unique and single most monumental skill in your life? That’s embarrassing.

That’s also the experience an F-15 driver passed along from his mishap. His “training” was irrelevant since the instructors managed to miss any of these attributes. I can back that up as well; the training was minimal, forgettable, and forced without any measure. Not tests; just show up and pray to stay awake. Typical worthless military “make work”.

So Cooper must have been quite skilled since there are hundreds of examples similar to the above, if anyone feels like searching the internet instead of reading these ‘experienced’ comments. At least they are humble.

Yep, no instructor, no training, no single G environment, no planning to jump, and they managed to perform and live. Oh well, don’t let that impede the delusions of grandeur.



I believe this was Farflungs last post before he disappeared.

I sure wish someone could confirm that he is OK.

Sure miss his posts, graphics and humor. I DO NOT miss his pesky reminders that whuffo skyjackers have jumped from jets and survived just fine. He really messed with my "DBC had to be a jumper" mantra. Now that Farf is gone I can go back to MAC SOG HALO land.

Wish we could get Snow, Farf, Orange, Sluggo and all of the old gang back on here. Those were good times.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Quote

What appeared to be two T-33s accompanied the Boeing 787 on its first flight.

Robert99



Right you are Robert. Pretty amazing to see 60 year old jets earning a living today:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/blogs/drewski2112/archive/2009/12/11/the-boeing-chase-planes.aspx

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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"Example: If Smith has to authorize each and every poster before they can post, the public will generally ignore his blog, although it will be a good discussion site for the people he approves. And I think if they stick to the subject instead of whining about Dropzone, they will accomplish much more."

Robert, you have been told that the site monitors the first post only. lots of sites do this. after the first post you have no holdings when posting. you always think that it's a loss if the general public can't get involved. there is nothing stopping them. Facebook has a block function, You Tube has the option for approval prior to making a comment. forgive me, but I'm having trouble understanding what you are driving at. the bitterness from you seems to be getting in the way for me to see your point. are you now the news reporter for that site?

B|

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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nobody knows how it will work Robert. it's something Bruce thought of. other things are on the table. it is a blog. it's hard to follow if you reply to a post. pictures are a problem unless you use photobucket for an example. it's not designed to be the answer to Cooper headquarters. problems exist here. I could care less who was banned from here that show up elsewhere. the past is the past. the important thing I would like to do is have a discussion about DB Cooper and not constantly play the one up game. I enjoy the people that are on here and admire many of them. there is also good people on the other site as well. if people decide to take a break from here that is there option. it is possible to co-exist. there is several major networks, newspapers, airlines etc.

I do this as a hobby. I don't have to live up to anything or anyone. I like to research things and enjoy the challenge. I don't have anything to prove or protect. several people have met me in person from this thread and will probably tell you that I'm exactly as I present myself on here. most people know my real name. I'm not hiding behind "shutter". currently the other site has discussions going on. that's where I will spend most of my spare time. if a hot topic pops up here. I will reply here as well. just like changing the channels on the TV.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. personally I don't have a problem with the first post thingy as long as the site is active. You Tube is always a problem if they hit you with the approval thingy. it takes weeks sometimes for replies.

it's obvious you are bitter over this. I didn't make the rules, nor did I cause them. just because you don't monitor your site doesn't mean everyone else should follow. you say Cooper nut, someone else says psycho. if the site had a block option would that be any different? millions accept it on Facebook. some things are in place to stop problems and don't have anything to do with censorship. if comments begin to disappear, then it's possibly a censorship issue. I don't know what else to say about this issue.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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RobertMBlevins

***"I returned because I finished editing Revenge Story, and I'm nearly done with the burlesque queen's life story ms. I was busy for a couple of days there"

Really?

"The fact is, I have had enough. Yes. After three-and-a-half years here, I'm finally deleting the thread shortcut from our office computers. Do not PM me. If you want to reach me, use my regular email. I am also disabling PM's for good."

Now, as usual you missed the point. I believe I said that you are doing the same by calling people Cooper nuts, but you seem to have a problem with someone using the word psycho. I said twice that they were both equally wrong. I don't need to debate this any longer.

you always have to go to extremes with everything. you flip flop more than anyone I know...

Good Day.



One of the two reasons I returned to post was because of two (*coughs politely*) inaccuracies, one of which YOU brought up, not I.

First one was when *someone* claimed back there that the Cooper comic was published in 17 different languages. Prior to 1972, this is not true. I have not checked for anytime AFTER that date, since that would be moot anyway. That question, by the way, has been asked several times by possible collectors of the comic. The person who claimed that could have discovered the truth easily with a simple Google search.

As I told you, Robert, when you pm'd me on this before the ink was dry on your declaration that you were through with the dropzone. You... are.... wrong. Not everything is obtainable through Google or Wikipedia.

HOWEVER -- You didn't say anything at that point about 17 languages. You asked me to give you ONE, JUST ONE example of the Comic in another language besides French or Belgian (whatever that is) prior to 1972. You said, and I quote "I don't think you can"

I then immediately gave you two examples - Dutch (pub in Netherlands) and Italian. Both prior to or from 1971. I even gave you links to the comics and the companies that published the translated versions. I asked if you wanted more - you did not respond to that.

I also gave you -free of charge - a tutorial on languages of Belgium. You'll note that "Belgian" was not listed anywhere.

Everytime you tried to come back with stuff like "well that's a lot less than 17" or "where's the publisher" - and tried to say it was probably anime, I was able to show you were wrong and school you in the finer art of debate. :)B|

I explained to you then and now that the point was that the Dan Cooper comic was not only available in the French language as has been mythologized and the fact that comic Dan Cooper was Canadian and the comic was available in French does not equate to a Franco-Canadian suspect -- as has been put forth by some.
Along with that was the fact that the comic was not distributed in Canada and was not widely available there so...... if you were wanting to equate the comic with Cooper you would likely be wiser to look across the ocean as it was available in Europe AND in languages other than French. You are so busy trying to one-up people that you miss the whole point of most posts.
But I stand by my post. Once again, you are just wrong. Sorry.

Why on earth you think that you can point out Cooper inaccuracies when your own work has so many is beyond comprehension.

Finally....I asked you to post a link to one document that shows Kenny Christiansen spending large sums of cash, or a picture of him in a toupe? Just one. I don't think you can.
You actually took this to mean that I cared. You don't get irony. That's okay. Lots of people don't.

I finally had to ask you not to PM me anymore.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

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quade


I don't assume there is a conspiracy.

When people use a phrase such as, "But the people now sitting on the tape are going to remain silent" it implies several things, but mostly a conspiracy to hide something.

I am not optimistic about the case ever being "solved," nor is that something I particularly care one way or the other about.

There are a number of parties though who are in the DB Cooper cottage industry who say they want it solved, but in reality don't really because it would mean the end to their little business of speculation of conspiracies books and once a year semi-fame of speaking in front of people.

I am pretty much anything but that.



lol....Or it would mean that we finally have to get a life......

I think your assessment is spot on. I'm conflicted. Part of me wants to know, the other part likes the wondering.

As to it ever being solved...I doubt seriously that it will solved - especially to the satisfaction of all - unless they are holding something back that they are not telling us.
And you have to wonder about that, since the only reason this would ever go to court would be an attorney's dream of the entertainment and publicity to be gained from being surrounded by media on the courthouse steps. This isn't Whitey Bulger stuff. No one's going to prison. But that's just my take on it. I could be wrong.
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

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