DB Cooper

[377 20]

One thing for sure about the Amboy canopy is that it is NOT made of ripstop fabric. That indisputable fact and some logic/common sense rules it out as a Cooper canopy in my opinion.

Military surplus twill (non ripstop) canopies were dangerous when deployed at high speeds. They killed some unfortunate skydivers who used surplus twill reserve canopies in the 1960s. Can you imagine watching your last chance canopy rip from skirt to apex? Game over.

Nobody in their right mind would use a surplus twill canopy for an emergency rig in 1971. A rigger would be an idiot to service such a canopy. Surplus ripstop canopies were dirt cheap back then, especially C9 canopies. C9s are the pit bull of all canopies. Tough as hell (unless sun damaged).

Still the Amboy chute is a puzzle. How did it end up buried? What might lie beneath it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[matthewcline 0]

It could have ended up there just like the AF says, one of the many lost after cargo drops over the many years in that area.

The load could have been recovered, the chute left at the drop zone and later blows away, gets buried by snow, mud, what ever over the years. We some times lost T-10's and the occasional cargo chute on training jumps, it happens.

It was 34', and the wrong material, so not much point in rehashing it anymore. The riggers logs show the two back chutes not to be 34'. Size does matter in this case.

Matt

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mrshutter45 21]

377

One thing for sure about the Amboy canopy is that it is NOT made of ripstop fabric. That indisputable fact and some logic/common sense rules it out as a Cooper canopy in my opinion.

Military surplus twill (non ripstop) canopies were dangerous when deployed at high speeds. They killed some unfortunate skydivers who used surplus twill reserve canopies in the 1960s. Can you imagine watching your last chance canopy rip from skirt to apex? Game over.

Nobody in their right mind would use a surplus twill canopy for an emergency rig in 1971. A rigger would be an idiot to service such a canopy. Surplus ripstop canopies were dirt cheap back then, especially C9 canopies. C9s are the pit bull of all canopies. Tough as hell (unless sun damaged).

Still the Amboy chute is a puzzle. How did it end up buried? What might lie beneath it?

377

it's hard to say how and when it got there. was it there during the search in 71/72? it was half out of the ground in 2008. I think the first move would be finding out who made the claim. finding the exact location. I have a good idea where it was, but I'm limited on what I can see. it's strange that none of the kids who it found have made any claims to anyone else. kids and secrets don't agree well. if you want to go way out on a limb as Robert has. how about the FBI constructed the whole thing to kick start the case again? we seem to be covering every other angle, why not this one. this could also explain the hush hush going on. that's a huge leap as well.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

377

One thing for sure about the Amboy canopy is that it is NOT made of ripstop fabric. That indisputable fact and some logic/common sense rules it out as a Cooper canopy in my opinion.

Military surplus twill (non ripstop) canopies were dangerous when deployed at high speeds. They killed some unfortunate skydivers who used surplus twill reserve canopies in the 1960s. Can you imagine watching your last chance canopy rip from skirt to apex? Game over.

Nobody in their right mind would use a surplus twill canopy for an emergency rig in 1971. A rigger would be an idiot to service such a canopy. Surplus ripstop canopies were dirt cheap back then, especially C9 canopies. C9s are the pit bull of all canopies. Tough as hell (unless sun damaged).

Still the Amboy chute is a puzzle. How did it end up buried? What might lie beneath it?

377

377,

Thanks to you west coast types hogging most of the military surplus equipment, we had to use twill reserves on the east coast and even they were hard to find. The ripstop backpack canopies were almost impossible to find.

I had the "honor" of coming down on a twill reserve on my 9th jump. Since I am here today, I can't really complain.

But the overall experience did cause me to give some thought about $20 reserves and $40 main canopies and how much I valued my life.

Robert99

[377 20]

Robert99,

What time period?

Some twill reserves were still being used for static line students at my DZ in 1968 but they disappeared quickly after reports of failures at terminal velocity deployments were publicized in the skydiving community.

The surplus 24 ft paratrooper twill reserve canopies packed up small and that was attractive but nobody wanted a small reserve that was undependable. 26 ft Navy Conicals were pricey and hard to find but 28 ft C9s were plentiful and cheap. They made for heavy and bulky chest reserves but they were very reliable and strong.

Let's hear from some riggers who were working in 1971. Did you repack any surplus twill canopies in emergency rigs?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Robert99 37]

377

Robert99,

What time period?

Some twill reserves were still being used for static line students at my DZ in 1968 but they disappeared quickly after reports of failures at terminal velocity deployments were publicized in the skydiving community.

The surplus 24 ft paratrooper twill reserve canopies packed up small and that was attractive but nobody wanted a small reserve that was undependable. 26 ft Navy Conicals were pricey and hard to find but 28 ft C9s were plentiful and cheap. They made for heavy and bulky chest reserves but they were very reliable and strong.

Let's hear from some riggers who were working in 1971. Did you repack any surplus twill canopies in emergency rigs?

377

377,

April 18, 1964 is the date I came down on the reserve. Three months to the 50th anniversary of that day.

To add a bit to the reserves used on the east coast in the early 1960s, my jump experience was all with a very small club located in the Virginia Tidewater area. We jumped at an abandoned airport with about three paved runways. There were probably not more than five regular jumpers and about another five sometimes interested visitors.

On the date of my malfunction, I think there were a total of about four people on the airport. They were the jump plane pilot and his wife, plus my instructor who was also a rigger, and myself. We jumped mostly from a Piper Pacer which was really doing it the hard way.

One day my instructor decided that he wanted to jump and pull the reserve only. I can't say with complete certainty that his reserve was a twill canopy but I think it was. I was on the ground when he jumped and he pulled the reserve which opened with no problem (he had packed it).

Then I noticed that he was trying to do something to his rig harness and for a while coming down he was horizontal to the ground. He got down with no problems but it turns out that one of the snaps on the reserve had come unfastened prior to the opening. Thus, the whole opening load was on one snap on his harness. And he was not able to fasten the other snap after the opening.

Actually, even with a belly tie down strap, the reserves we used usually had one snap unfastened by the time the main canopy opened.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

it's hard to say how and when it got there. was it there during the search in 71/72? it was half out of the ground in 2008. I think the first move would be finding out who made the claim. finding the exact location. I have a good idea where it was, but I'm limited on what I can see. it's strange that none of the kids who it found have made any claims to anyone else. kids and secrets don't agree well. if you want to go way out on a limb as Robert has. how about the FBI constructed the whole thing to kick start the case again? we seem to be covering every other angle, why not this one. this could also explain the hush hush going on. that's a huge leap as well.......

The FBI constructing this Amboy Chute - NOT hardly.

1.
There was a vague map indicating it was out off a road, but WHERE was it in conjunction with the Stores at the Cross Roads in Amboy?

I have a reason (nothing important) for asking this question regarding the Amboy find. Rather than clutter up the thread with useless trivia send me a map I can open on my old system..by regular email address which is in my profile.

2.
What is Missing? I mentioned earlier that perhaps the old Amboy chute was the canvas inside of the dummy chute. It still bugs me what happened to it. Obviously Cooper knew it was a dummy.

a. Did he actually use it? Nahhh
But maybe - see C below.

b. Did he know what it was and
used the container to put the
money in? Throwing the canvas
out to the plane when he
jumped.

c. Did he use it NOT knowing it
was not a real FRONT pack?
Then used it to provide shelter
and protection on the ground.

Remember I have NOT told ALL Duane said to me on that trip in 1979. In 1996 I didn't know every detail was significant because the FBI did NOT ask me any specific details.

In 1998 the FBI dismissed Weber and NO one wanted to know what I might have remembered. I could NOT afford to go to WA and when I did get to GO with the crew - the GUIDE was a 2 yr college student who did NOT know the area.

They were NOT interested enough to provided a local guide who knew the area. Crew was all young and they drove FAST! Was just too much in my face at one time. They also had been listening to JT too much - and formed their opinion base on the hype he promoted.

Coulda, woulda, Shoulda - nothing anyone can do about it at this time. Other than for me to tell even the little things I remember, but no one left now who can actually go back in time 42 yrs or to 1979. It is very difficult to find pictures of the area made around 1979 - so I had NO grounds to stand on. With pictures taken in 1979 versus pictures made of a specific area JT was dissing - this could have been over yrs ago - BUT, now it is just a matter of my saying what has to be said and leaving for someone in the future if there are any clues left to be found.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

"The FBI constructing this Amboy Chute - NOT hardly."

I don't believe either, but it's not as ridiculous as some of the stuff posted on here....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[matthewcline 0]

Typically, Dummy chutes, actually a dummy container, do not have a parachute in them. The chute is to valuable a tool to be kept from use, either as a functioning canopy, or as a trainer, for things like packing, landing recovery, or water training, etc.

When a container is used in this manner (as a dummy), and sewn shut, it is usually filled with discards, old ponchos, blankets, pillows, clothes, what ever gives it the right bulk.

Since these are also former Military Items, rigged by some one with the same experiences, I would theorize there wasn't a parachute canopy in the dummy rig. Of course the owner of the dummy rig is the only one that can confirm this apparently.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mrshutter45 21]

matthewcline

Typically, Dummy chutes, actually a dummy container, do not have a parachute in them. The chute is to valuable a tool to be kept from use, either as a functioning canopy, or as a trainer, for things like packing, landing recovery, or water training, etc.

When a container is used in this manner (as a dummy), and sewn shut, it is usually filled with discards, old ponchos, blankets, pillows, clothes, what ever gives it the right bulk.

Since these are also former Military Items, rigged by some one with the same experiences, I would theorize there wasn't a parachute canopy in the dummy rig. Of course the owner of the dummy rig is the only one that can confirm this apparently.

Matt

May 29, 2008 Larry Carr posted this:

The agent who originally interviewed Cossey mistakenly reported it was sewn shut. it was not sewn shut, the canopy was cut in half and the panels then sewn together. This was done so that when students practiced deploying the emergency canopy they could easily gather it and quickly stuff it back in the container for another practice throw.

Anyone with any amount of experience would have know the x's on the container meant, "you might not want to use this one when jumping out of a plane." Also, when he picked it up it would have been very obvious, if you have any amount of experience, (by that I mean how tight containers are packed) that something was wrong because it would have been "squishy" (not my word but from someone who would know what the belly reserve would have felt like). If he deployed it, it would have been like one of those guns you pull the trigger and a flag comes out of the barrel that says, "bang."

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

I recently posted about a dream when I fell asleep on the couch - during the day - which is a common occurence as of the last few months.

That dream - I heard Doug Pasternac's very distinguishable voice saying "Jo, Jo wake up - it is not time yet". I left a message for Doug about the dream and then he called me and we had a SHORT conversation.

Today I had an appt with the Temite people to inspect my home and was awake at 8:30 and did my usual routine - coffee and reading the paper.

After the termite people left I decided I felf very tired and instead of falling asleep on the couch - decided to go crawl in the bed. Did NOT expect to fall asleep - but I did. This was around 12 noon, but at 2:30 I was struggling to escape the strangest dream I have ever experienced. I had taken NO medications other than my Vit E, a Bone density and a Calcium Tab.

I had NOT been able to get the chill out of my bones and why I crawled back into the bed during the middle of the day.

The Dream:

Remember dreams are combinations of the past and the present and usually one can never remember the entire dream. This dream was past and present all in one dream.

I am younger but Duane is already deceased. I am in WA (presumably). It is an apt. and a young man lives there - someone who I spent some time with talking about Cooper..he has to leave and told me I could stay for awhile to make some phone calls & do some emails ( it was obvious I was probably staying in a hotel or motel).

He returns as I am leaving. In the first part of the dream I only knew the man was much younger than myself.

When he returns and I tell him about something I left for him - weirdly in the bottom of something that resembled a nightstand but in the living room...It was something I had found (I now have NO idea what it was other than it was about Cooper).

The point of the dream is the man.
He is making movements - what I would call involuntary movements with his head and his arms and hands.

Some things snap and I was feeling fear...but recognition. I wanted to get out of there fast - I do not know what Galen Cook looks like, but that is thought after awakening that went thru my mind - I know I have leave and leave fast.

I was flashing back to a much younger man who I had met thru Duane, but without the movements.

Suddenly this young man in the dream is ominous to me. He was slightly taller than myself - which in my past was 5'7 1/4". So this guy was less than 6 ft. Dark hair.

He suddenly became familar to me and I realized a certain man must have been his father...who was a friend of Duane's and he had known who Cooper was all along...he seemed alarmed I had come upon the secret! The man was too young to have been Cooper - at least in the dream.

JUST a dream - or was it more? Perhaps just the end stage of my life and the fatigue I continuosly feel. It is 7;30 pm here and I will fall asleep as soon as I lie back down on the couch to watch TV.

JUST a dream - but, my dreams are never about Cooper, just about Duane or something else.

There is a poster on this thread I will not identify by name, but want to know if any of you who have met a man in WA who fits the description of the man in my dream. Slender early 40's, but it was a dream - he was either the son of Cooper or someone related to a person who knew Cooper over 40 yrs ago....since I seemed to be younger this person might be my age but still have known Weber.

This man talked the way I believe Gray Cop would talk - the way he writes - broken in segments and riddles. Seemingly to breaking up his speech and with loss of segments of what he is saying. Talking in riddles but not in riddles.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[matthewcline 0]

mrshutter45

***Typically, Dummy chutes, actually a dummy container, do not have a parachute in them. The chute is to valuable a tool to be kept from use, either as a functioning canopy, or as a trainer, for things like packing, landing recovery, or water training, etc.

When a container is used in this manner (as a dummy), and sewn shut, it is usually filled with discards, old ponchos, blankets, pillows, clothes, what ever gives it the right bulk.

Since these are also former Military Items, rigged by some one with the same experiences, I would theorize there wasn't a parachute canopy in the dummy rig. Of course the owner of the dummy rig is the only one that can confirm this apparently.

Matt

May 29, 2008 Larry Carr posted this:

The agent who originally interviewed Cossey mistakenly reported it was sewn shut. it was not sewn shut, the canopy was cut in half and the panels then sewn together. This was done so that when students practiced deploying the emergency canopy they could easily gather it and quickly stuff it back in the container for another practice throw.

Anyone with any amount of experience would have know the x's on the container meant, "you might not want to use this one when jumping out of a plane." Also, when he picked it up it would have been very obvious, if you have any amount of experience, (by that I mean how tight containers are packed) that something was wrong because it would have been "squishy" (not my word but from someone who would know what the belly reserve would have felt like). If he deployed it, it would have been like one of those guns you pull the trigger and a flag comes out of the barrel that says, "bang."

Yep, used as an emergency procedures (EP's) trainer it would have felt "squishy" as there is less material in the dummy to facilitate quicker re-packing. A lot of things besides the equipment came from the military and transferred over to the civilian world, the "X" marking and/or the color red denotes "danger: do not use" in pretty much ALL military training.

So, it looks like we are back to some one having some sort of training, a "formalized" type of training, not some osmosis or fantasy type.

The freefall rigs, "back rigs" of the type used, IIRC, weren't used by any military static line parachutists, or smoke jumpers in 40's, 50's, or 60's. Pilots, SERE-I's, SOF or CIA types, yes. An exception might be the Paratrooper's JM's or Safeties, but other than a cursory "here is the handles" briefing, they typically didn't get any true training on those types of rigs.

So, IMO, a jumper not in the proper military categories would HAVE to be trained by a skydiver versed in and using the surplus equipment.

If a suspect doesn't fall into one of those categories, IMO, they aren't a suspect, this is an era before youtube after all.

Until KC and DW can be placed in those training scenarios (being trained, not spectating or running errands), they aren't viable suspects. They would then have to be placed on the plane, and actually match a suspect description. So far, 0 for 3, on both.

I personally think the person who did this is on the periphery of the SOG/CIA project, but not necessarily one of the JM's or actual test jumpers.

This Sheridan cat, or one like him, seems a better suspect.
Again, in my opinion.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mrshutter45 21]

"I personally think the person who did this is on the periphery of the SOG/CIA project, but not necessarily one of the JM's or actual test jumpers.

This Sheridan cat, or one like him, seems a better suspect.
Again, in my opinion."

Interesting, let me ask your opinion about something. what kind of person/jumper would feel confident enough to jump the way Cooper did. I'm talking about what he was wearing. it seems obvious he's not a southern boy like myself. it's 55 degree's right now and that's heater time/jacket all around wuss time for me. I've adapted to the climate. when I lived in Ohio I would laugh at those temps. he had to have known it was going to be a rough ride down dressed the way he was.

do you feel he was experienced enough to laugh at us jumping that way because he knew he could do it dressed that way? why November and not another Holiday that has better weather and could still catch them off guard?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[matthewcline 0]

mrshutter45

"I personally think the person who did this is on the periphery of the SOG/CIA project, but not necessarily one of the JM's or actual test jumpers.

This Sheridan cat, or one like him, seems a better suspect.
Again, in my opinion."

Interesting, let me ask your opinion about something. what kind of person/jumper would feel confident enough to jump the way Cooper did. I'm talking about what he was wearing. it seems obvious he's not a southern boy like myself. it's 55 degree's right now and that's heater time/jacket all around wuss time for me. I've adapted to the climate. when I lived in Ohio I would laugh at those temps. he had to have known it was going to be a rough ride down dressed the way he was.

do you feel he was experienced enough to laugh at us jumping that way because he knew he could do it dressed that way? why November and not another Holiday that has better weather and could still catch them off guard?

Some one trained in freefall jumps, stationed in, or from the region (and currently back in it, to acclimate like you mentioned). I think there is a good chance there might be a few layers under the suit, so the weather might not have been as tough on him. Some one with a knowledge of survival skills, and a healthy respect for the environment. One with a plan and a few plan B's as well.

Not some one who "wings it" and hopes luck will win out.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

do you feel he was experienced enough to laugh at us jumping that way because he knew he could do it dressed that way? why November and not another Holiday that has better weather and could still catch them off guard?

This question was not asked of me, but I will provide a suggestion.

1. If Cooper had participated in recent jumping and was a known jumper - someone would have suggested that person be looked at.

2. Cooper could be an unknown with some training but NOT known to the general public as a jumper.

3. The choice of chutes says he was old school.

4. Smoke jumpers did NOT always make the grade and just because they might have been injured in their 1st attempts to jump - did NOT in the 50's and 60' put them OUT of the loop....

5. The best packers were NOT jumpers. They were taught the fundamentals and it was best if they could serve a dual purpose but that was NOT always the case.
Most times they were also given medial jobs such as Cooking or cleaning and clearing and laundry and supply rooms.

6. Not everyone involved in the smoke jumpers - ended up being a jumper. They built the training equipment - all they needed was the desire and the means. The helped build the housing and used to clear and handle the edges of the fires - they did NOT have to be a smoke jumper to be involved.

7. Never forget the spotters - they would purposely look for someone who was far sighted - they made better spotters...this would also have provided Cooper with some training. The spotters had to be able to use a chute - but you will notice not all spotters wore a chute.
Do you know why?

8. I didn't understand a picture Duane showed me - but it was a packing room for chutes. A similar picture has been publicized but not an exact picture.

9. Often the guys used for the purposed above were those who washed out. Most were sent down the road - but with family connection - some of these guy were retained for the medial jobs.

10. Go find the clues that have been infront of you guys all of these yrs...If you refuse to look at the exceptions you will loose. It is like gambling - you have to be able to take the chances.

11. Retrace the family and history of Richard "paperlegs" Petersen and you will find Cooper. Cooper was not a jumper.

12. Those who do not look under the ROCKS will never know.

Take the 12 steps and find his name, but not his name. CC's often housed and used young men who were associated with the crew manager or relatives and friends of those and find the others....Even in those days young men were salvaged by family members in the attempt to create the reforms that are used even now.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

matthewcline

***"I personally think the person who did this is on the periphery of the SOG/CIA project, but not necessarily one of the JM's or actual test jumpers.

This Sheridan cat, or one like him, seems a better suspect.
Again, in my opinion."

Interesting, let me ask your opinion about something. what kind of person/jumper would feel confident enough to jump the way Cooper did. I'm talking about what he was wearing. it seems obvious he's not a southern boy like myself. it's 55 degree's right now and that's heater time/jacket all around wuss time for me. I've adapted to the climate. when I lived in Ohio I would laugh at those temps. he had to have known it was going to be a rough ride down dressed the way he was.

do you feel he was experienced enough to laugh at us jumping that way because he knew he could do it dressed that way? why November and not another Holiday that has better weather and could still catch them off guard?

Some one trained in freefall jumps, stationed in, or from the region (and currently back in it, to acclimate like you mentioned). I think there is a good chance there might be a few layers under the suit, so the weather might not have been as tough on him. Some one with a knowledge of survival skills, and a healthy respect for the environment. One with a plan and a few plan B's as well.

Not some one who "wings it" and hopes luck will win out.

Matt

The wind chill factor would have been about 35 degrees below zero Fahrenheit when Cooper separated from the aircraft. It would, of course, decrease as he slowed down and got lower.

On the subject of military free-fall parachutists, I saw an Army demonstration of that in the 1963-1965 time frame. I can't remember the exact date. But it was at the start of the build up in Army special forces training.

Robert99

[Amazon 7]

I am thinking a men's wool suit with good thermals is a no brainer ( even the old stuff from back in the day)... hell I have done winter jumps in old school OD wool fatigues.. I know a couple people made a big deal about hypothermia when you get wet. Uh those wools are standard fair for elk hunters in this area. Wool gets wet.. and it still provides insulation when you wring it out.

[georger 194]

377

One thing for sure about the Amboy canopy is that it is NOT made of ripstop fabric. That indisputable fact and some logic/common sense rules it out as a Cooper canopy in my opinion.

Military surplus twill (non ripstop) canopies were dangerous when deployed at high speeds. They killed some unfortunate skydivers who used surplus twill reserve canopies in the 1960s. Can you imagine watching your last chance canopy rip from skirt to apex? Game over.

Nobody in their right mind would use a surplus twill canopy for an emergency rig in 1971. A rigger would be an idiot to service such a canopy. Surplus ripstop canopies were dirt cheap back then, especially C9 canopies. C9s are the pit bull of all canopies. Tough as hell (unless sun damaged).

Still the Amboy chute is a puzzle. How did it end up buried? What might lie beneath it?

377

Soil sample would tell the story.

Recall it was lack of soil samples at Tina Bar that plagued that
study.

Green eggs and ham.
http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/01/15/dna-detectives-able-to-count-thousands-of-fish-using-as-little-as-a-glass-of-water/

[skyjack71 0]

matthewcline

Some one trained in freefall jumps, stationed in, or from the region (and currently back in it, to acclimate like you mentioned). I think there is a good chance there might be a few layers under the suit, so the weather might not have been as tough on him. Some one with a knowledge of survival skills, and a healthy respect for the environment. One with a plan and a few plan B's as well.

Not some one who "wings it" and hopes luck will win out.

Matt

Opinions such as your - are exactly how and why Cooper was never found.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Amazon 7]

The weather out here does not work that way Robert with the old 3 degree per thousand temp gradient as you go up in altitude. When its cloudy and wet.. it is usually a warm air mass coming in off the Not So Pacific Ocean. We get temperature inversions where like today it was far warmer up on Mt Rainier than it was down here in the lowlands of the sound. mid 40's down here and actually high 50's up on the mountain.

[Robert99 37]

Amazon

The weather out here does not work that way Robert with the old 3 degree per thousand temp gradient as you go up in altitude. When its cloudy and wet.. it is usually a warm air mass coming in off the Not So Pacific Ocean. We get temperature inversions where like today it was far warmer up on Mt Rainier than it was down here in the lowlands of the sound. mid 40's down here and actually high 50's up on the mountain.

I was using the ambient temperature as measured by the airliner's equipment and corrected (reduced) for temperature rise due to the airliner's speed. The "lapse rate" was not used. It was actual measured temperature at 10,000 feet.

Robert99

[skyjack71 0]

snowmman

Quote

Everyone needs to go to this site:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/conscientiousobjection/CPScampsList.htm

http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/conscientiousobjection/c.o.list.htm

After you pull that up you go to Manuscript Collectiuon in the Swarthmore College - Peace- Collection That Related to Conscientious Objection.

There is a list (not complete) of conscientious objectors.

You read down the alphabetical list until you get to C

Cooper, Dan (Vietnam Conflict C.O.) (Elliston P. Morris (CDGA)

Check it out and get to the inside of the files - you will find family members on the side of Duane's mother. To learn MORE you have go there by APPOINTMENT.

No ONE ever thought the old CO files important enough to keep. After all they were the scum of the earth! There was a WAR and not all of them in those files were CO - some were just boys gone wrong - boys who ended up in prisons at the age of 18.

Today they get a slap on their hand and told to have a good life!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

• Quote

[mrshutter45 21]

Isn't a Conscientious Objector typically a weapon used during the draft. I'm not saying everyone used the clause, but I believe you have to prove your status as a CO. if someone was a CO would they be training in chemical warfare?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

Someone was unhappy criminals had been put in files with the CO's and some are misssing!

I had a man go there many yrs ago, but it was just too massive of an undertaking and so many of the files were missing and was explained as above. NO one knows were the missing files are.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/conscientiousobjection/CPScampsList.htm

http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/conscientiousobjection/c.o.list.htm

After you pull that up you go to Manuscript Collectiuon in the Swarthmore College - Peace- Collection That Related to Conscientious Objection.

There is a list (not complete) of conscientious objectors.

You read down the alphabetical list until you get to C

Cooper, Dan (Vietnam Conflict C.O.) (Elliston P. Morris (CDGA)

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

Isn't a Conscientious Objector typically a weapon used during the draft. I'm not saying everyone used the clause, but I believe you have to prove your status as a CO. if someone was a CO would they be training in chemical warfare?

Many of the files are missing - removed by family member or just destroyed by other who felt none of this should ever be recorded and saved.

Criminal - young men who had a petty theft and others were sent to the CO camps - an arrangement made by family who PAID for this to happen.

THE FILES ARE CLOSED UNTIL 2025.
YOU HAVE TO SIGN A STATEMENT - BEFORE YOU CAN VIEW MOST OF WHAT IS LEFT...

You are confusing Duane's military with the CO's.

THe CO's allowed themselves to be STARVED for the efforts -AND AS GUINEA PIGS FOR CHEMICAL WARFARE. Duane's UNCLE was military and helped to developement of the CHEMICAL WARFARE for the ARMY. When he was called up again he served his time in PUBLIC SERVICE As he had children....and perhaps second thoughts about being pulled in this part of the war again.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber