georger 194 #41176 June 23, 2013 RobertMBlevinsIf you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41177 June 23, 2013 quade***Note: Even being a whuffo in the skydiving biz, I would bet good money that two of the gauges are a clock and an altimeter for sure. The third, I don't know. Clock VSI - tells how fast you're climbing or descending Airspeed Least, that's the way I see them. Whatever these instruments are they appear to be free standing self contained with no obvious wires ? Placed at the top of the stairwell. So if one is measuring pressure its measuring pressure at the top of the stairwell. The combination of the devices being used to measure event timing ... ? They all look like aircraft instruments to me - I dont see a Beckman strip chart recorder there that was prominent in that era ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41178 June 23, 2013 sailshawRobert99 You say: "Did you, or any of your relatives, serve in the US Military at any point or did you just sit on you lazy ass and live off the efforts of other people?" I say: I served four years in the Millitary (1952 to 1956) during the Korean War and was not sitting on my lazy ass as you state. Possibly, you are talking about your own lack of serving our country during war time. I used my G.I. Bill to get a BSEE from the UofW following my service time and post graduate at UCLA thanks to Boeing. All Marines are trained to kill the enemy and remember their slogan in Boot Camp while holding their riffle with one hand and their crotch with their other hand) "this is my riffle, this is my gun, one is for killing and the other is for fun". They are trained killers whether it is politically correct to say so in present days. Bob Sailshaw [email protected] Congratulations on your military service. By a weird coincidence, I was in the military during the same time period that you specify. My $3960 in G.I. Bill educational benefits apparently didn't go as far as yours did. In fact, since my total undergraduate and graduate expenses exceeded $100,000 in that time period, the G.I. Bill money paid less than four percent of those expenses. Perhaps that was partly due to my being interested in very specialized programs and mainly attended private and expensive colleges that provided those programs. But I ended up with three college degrees in my closet and have no complaints. Would you classify law enforcement officers in the same manner as you classify Marines? Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #41179 June 23, 2013 Clocks might or might not require electricity. My guess, this one doesn't. VSIs and Airspeed Indicators do not require electrical. The VSI is entirely self contained. An Airspeed Indicator would require two small air tubes; one to provide static pressure and another to provide ram air pressure.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41180 June 23, 2013 georger***If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41181 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45I don't think we will find the gauges...here is what I found. the clock seems to be the closest found..... Its pretty clear one of the things they are interested in is testing/duplicating pressure, presure changes visi-a-vis the aft stairs/door position, and the timing of pressure changes vs the drop and aircraft flight paramters recorded by the black box? That would give a data set for comparison with 305's recorded flight record ~ radar tapes. People on this flight who worked on the data included NWA's Paul Solderlind, an NWA instrument specialist, two FBI technical people, NWA Chief Pilot Western Regional Div, 305 FE Harold Anderson, and others ... These are the people who chose the instruments who are dealing with the data ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41182 June 23, 2013 sailshawgeorger: Notice in your attached pictures the jumper is facing forward while on the stairs as Blevin predicted DB must have backed down the stairs. That would have given DB the best view of where to jump and clear of windows etc... Attached is a photo of Sheridan from one of two articles in the Boeing News prior to Norjak in November 1st 1962 issue. He was dressed just like DB including black suit, white shirt, black tie, and loafers. He was promoting the Boeing Skydiving Club. Bob Sailshaw [email protected]Quote There is an even more compelling reason for NOT backing down those stairs IF Cooper knew what he was doing, or if for example he had jumped a 727 before, or was even a cargo handler ... I'll get to that indue course ... Nice photos. Is that loafer on Sheridan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41183 June 23, 2013 Of course he could. Now you must prove that he did, right? You have zip on this so far. People slam on Christiansen sometimes because he had 'hazel' eyes and Cooper's were reported as brown. Sheridan's are BLUE. Quote And you have ZIP on Kenny on 4 Clydesdales abreast with the Cooper Comic nailed to a wall in the wheel house of Tug No.40 at Foss Tugboats ... all in a trailer at some campground now changed to a tool shack in the woods near Anti Gravity Hill ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41184 June 23, 2013 Robert99******If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41185 June 23, 2013 quade***yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41186 June 23, 2013 Robert99******If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 Thats sort of what I assumed ... instructors used to use old surplus aircraft instruments in the lab, eons ago. None of them required power ... amazing technology. I can see why 377 collects them! BTW where is 377 on all of this ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41187 June 23, 2013 "Would you classify law enforcement officers in the same manner as you classify Marines?" a cop is sent out everyday to serve and protect. same for the military, cops don't have helicopters with multiple weapons on them for the sole purpose of killing. the military is not required in war to fire a warning shot at someone before they shot them. (kill or be killed) war is not a good thing any way you look at it, but rest assure they are trained to kill, rather than reason with a difficult person, or a person drugs a cop might have to shoot. the cop has to make sure he is in the right. the military can kill as long as they are showing a threat or have weapons on them. I see two goals in sending troops. one would be a show of force. number two would be to eliminate (kill) as many as they can find. cops don't search for people to kill. so I think there is a big difference between the two??? just a thought...... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41188 June 23, 2013 georger******yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41189 June 23, 2013 georger******yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? Those black box times are accurate (both the flight data and the cockpit voice recorders). And so are the times in the Air Traffic Control transcripts. The information from these sources is correlated during accident/incident investigations to reconstruct the sequence of events. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41190 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41191 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing..... Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkBennett 5 #41192 June 23, 2013 RobertMBlevins If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41193 June 23, 2013 Robert99 ***a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not in the Transcript. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41194 June 23, 2013 Robert99***there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing..... Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests. Robert99 correct, I was stating the wires seem out of the norm. I guess I should have said the right side on the photo. what is behind that door if it isn't a bathroom? I see now you explained the room....disregard"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41195 June 23, 2013 georger ******a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not in the Transcript. Georger, You have just stated the whole problem here. Most of the important things have been deleted from the transcripts by parties known or unknown and they are certainly not going to "fess up" at this late date. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41196 June 23, 2013 MarkBennett*** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41197 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45 ****** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear? I remember at the time, Cooper's dress and audacity, as it was perceived, had him appearing as some kind of "joke", a Hippie in a suit, a political activist making some kind of political statement, ... an audacious nutcase parachuting into the "wilderness of Washington" during a rainstorm in the political climate of chaos and national protesting at the time. The political overtones conveyed in the news were strong. Cooper fit squarely into the national angst at the time - That bias has worn off perhaps. People half expected to find Mr. Cooper wandering around half crazed from lack of food and stress, with a broken leg at minimum ... or a body somewhere, dead. With his $200,000 in twenties spread out by the wind over 20 square miles... All of that was based on the original search area announced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJjkiNMUB8 People at Vancouver, for example, went about their business while a few went north to join in the search. Nobody suspected Cooper money would turn up at Tina Bar of all places, in 1980! Could Bob Knoss be D.B. Cooper! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41198 June 23, 2013 'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 194 #41199 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45 'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM Quote They were convinced he had bailed north. Perhaps he did. Odd considering ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41200 June 23, 2013 georger ***'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM Quote They were convinced he had bailed north. Perhaps he did. Odd considering ... they seemed to of been convinced of a lot of things at the start of the investigation. I don't think they agree with some things from the past today.... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1643 1644 1645 1646 1647 1648 1649 1650 1651 1652 1653 Next Page 1648 of 2540 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47
georger 194 #41183 June 23, 2013 Of course he could. Now you must prove that he did, right? You have zip on this so far. People slam on Christiansen sometimes because he had 'hazel' eyes and Cooper's were reported as brown. Sheridan's are BLUE. Quote And you have ZIP on Kenny on 4 Clydesdales abreast with the Cooper Comic nailed to a wall in the wheel house of Tug No.40 at Foss Tugboats ... all in a trailer at some campground now changed to a tool shack in the woods near Anti Gravity Hill ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41184 June 23, 2013 Robert99******If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing....."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41185 June 23, 2013 quade***yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41186 June 23, 2013 Robert99******If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges. Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy, however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you know all about it! The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights. Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal. Robert99 Thats sort of what I assumed ... instructors used to use old surplus aircraft instruments in the lab, eons ago. None of them required power ... amazing technology. I can see why 377 collects them! BTW where is 377 on all of this ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41187 June 23, 2013 "Would you classify law enforcement officers in the same manner as you classify Marines?" a cop is sent out everyday to serve and protect. same for the military, cops don't have helicopters with multiple weapons on them for the sole purpose of killing. the military is not required in war to fire a warning shot at someone before they shot them. (kill or be killed) war is not a good thing any way you look at it, but rest assure they are trained to kill, rather than reason with a difficult person, or a person drugs a cop might have to shoot. the cop has to make sure he is in the right. the military can kill as long as they are showing a threat or have weapons on them. I see two goals in sending troops. one would be a show of force. number two would be to eliminate (kill) as many as they can find. cops don't search for people to kill. so I think there is a big difference between the two??? just a thought...... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41188 June 23, 2013 georger******yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data."It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41189 June 23, 2013 georger******yes that is correct on the VSI reading. Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;) Quotenow this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo? my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something..... Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well. Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight. The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ? A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ? Those black box times are accurate (both the flight data and the cockpit voice recorders). And so are the times in the Air Traffic Control transcripts. The information from these sources is correlated during accident/incident investigations to reconstruct the sequence of events. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41190 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41191 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing..... Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkBennett 5 #41192 June 23, 2013 RobertMBlevins If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41193 June 23, 2013 Robert99 ***a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not in the Transcript. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41194 June 23, 2013 Robert99***there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle? the gauge is attached to the hand railing..... Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests. Robert99 correct, I was stating the wires seem out of the norm. I guess I should have said the right side on the photo. what is behind that door if it isn't a bathroom? I see now you explained the room....disregard"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41195 June 23, 2013 georger ******a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data. Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record. Robert99 Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not in the Transcript. Georger, You have just stated the whole problem here. Most of the important things have been deleted from the transcripts by parties known or unknown and they are certainly not going to "fess up" at this late date. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41196 June 23, 2013 MarkBennett*** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear?"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41197 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45 ****** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly. RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not? correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear? I remember at the time, Cooper's dress and audacity, as it was perceived, had him appearing as some kind of "joke", a Hippie in a suit, a political activist making some kind of political statement, ... an audacious nutcase parachuting into the "wilderness of Washington" during a rainstorm in the political climate of chaos and national protesting at the time. The political overtones conveyed in the news were strong. Cooper fit squarely into the national angst at the time - That bias has worn off perhaps. People half expected to find Mr. Cooper wandering around half crazed from lack of food and stress, with a broken leg at minimum ... or a body somewhere, dead. With his $200,000 in twenties spread out by the wind over 20 square miles... All of that was based on the original search area announced. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJjkiNMUB8 People at Vancouver, for example, went about their business while a few went north to join in the search. Nobody suspected Cooper money would turn up at Tina Bar of all places, in 1980! Could Bob Knoss be D.B. Cooper! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41198 June 23, 2013 'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 194 #41199 June 23, 2013 mrshutter45 'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM Quote They were convinced he had bailed north. Perhaps he did. Odd considering ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41200 June 23, 2013 georger ***'All of that was based on the original search area announced." the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone. he gave permission to post them....thanks SM Quote They were convinced he had bailed north. Perhaps he did. Odd considering ... they seemed to of been convinced of a lot of things at the start of the investigation. I don't think they agree with some things from the past today.... "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
