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DB Cooper

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In the meantime, does anyone have any information available on the position of the money when it was found. That is, which way were the bills pointing, were the bundles side by side, etc..

Robert99



None that I know of. Except for this confusing claim
that bills were in perfect alignment, ... while
also being askew as per Tom's alignment reconstruc-
tion diagram on his website.

The only reference Brian and his mother could recall
(when I asked) was 'flat side up more or less'. One
bundle on top of the other facing upwards.

Maybe Tom got a different reply ?

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HG probably stands for the atmospheric pressure at a certain time. If there are numbers given here, it would be easy to determine for sure. Something between 25 and 31 or so?



Atmospheric pressure is not a factor in this.

Robert99


You said you didn't know what 'HG' stood for in those Columbia river level readings. I gave you a very possible answer. How do you know that's not what it means? Have you examined the gear they use? Don't you think barometic pressure might be a simple-to-obtain and important piece of data for the river watchers, especially if it dropped to a record low and a severe storm is predicted off the Pacific Coast? Of course it is. It's probably either that, or some type of presence-of-mercury measurement. But if it's done electronically, this probably lets out mercury.

I can't believe you deleted your entire post about it in an effort to make your question disappear. :S

Robert99 asks:

Quote

'In the meantime, does anyone have any information available on the position of the money when it was found. That is, which way were the bills pointing, were the bundles side by side, etc...'



Go to the source. Email Brian Ingram and ask him.


Blevins, You are barking up the wrong tree. I still don't know what "HG" means with respect to the river gage. In meterology, atmospheric pressure is measured in "inches of mercury", pounds per square inch, millibars, atmospheres, and other such conventions. And of course you know that the chemical abbreviation for mercury is "hg".

Altimeter settings are routinely given in inches of mercury with "29.92 in hg" being sea level standard pressure in the western world but other countries may use other conventions.

If the people who are responsible for the Vancouver gage need meteorological information, all they have to do is call the National Weather Service Office at the Portland International Airport which is just across the Columbia River from the gage. They can get everything they need at that NWS office.

As Georger has already pointed out, the Brian Ingram source has problems of its own. It has been unproductive for me in the past.

Robert99

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More unsolcited advice:

If you are going to dispute the FBI maps and the FBI's version of the flight path, then how about drawing up a document in PDF (with images if necessary). This document would present your concerns on their conclusions. You should give the Seattle office a chance to defend the information they made public.

Unless you have a response from them with their reasons, then you will never be able to establish for sure that they are in error. Not only is YOUR research important (it is), but so is theirs. Without understanding how they arrived at their conclusions makes it a one-sided research project. You can't verify your own research without knowing how they arrived at theirs.

You might want to submit your document, with its questions and concerns, signed by more than one person where everyone gives their qualifications. They might take it more seriously this way. And if you get an answer from them, you might be able to find (if they exist) any holes in their conclusions.

Just a thought. :)



Blevins, There is an old saying that goes (roughly) like this:

Normal people learn from their own experiences, smart people learn from the experiences of others, and dumb people don't learn from either.

What have you learned from your experiences with sending things to the FBI, media, etc.?

Just a thought.

Robert99

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Cooper Jumped before the plane crossed the First Standard Parallel. Where the winds took him I do not know - one thing is very certain he did NOT land in the Columbia and had exited the plane LONG before that.

Before and After Cooper hit the ground he needed to orient himself - this meant watching for the land signals (whatever he could see on that night). One thing would be the lights on the Dam and any other signal lights such as a Signal light near Yacolt Mtn Rd off of Kelly road. If Cooper had anything to do with the structuring of these Signal lights he knew the locations. He also knew were every airstip was.

If one knew where the signal towers where it was EASY to find the rails.

Just saying - Just Jo Rambling!

There was an airstrip just below Lake Merwin off of 419 and NE 266 PL. The next airstip was at Fargher - a private airstip off of 503.

These landmarks create a triangle. A road called Lucia Falls Rd is just north of Heison. Know this area and the RAILS become an escape route.

Take the triangle and it becomes a Marquis Diamond with the location of the VOR off of Meadow Glade. There is another landing stip just north of the VOR, but I do not know if it was there in 1971.

Was just a curiosity the way the airstrip added up with the signal light being on the Eastward part of this marquis. Even stranger is that these places are all places Duane took me to.

Duane loved Marquis diamonds!

My trip in 2010 showed me that time and space were NOT part of my memory, but the places are part of my memory. Wish I had been able to relate all of this to Sluggo, but I kept insisting they were closer. The memory is an amazing thing. We could never possible remember time and space and wish some one had pointed that out to me yrs ago.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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The idea that the rebounding of the airstairs, the indicator light going off for a moment, and then coming back on for good, is the best evidence supporting the idea that Cooper jumped at the time the crew said he did. There just isn't any evidence showing otherwise. I mean, it's pure speculation. It's okay to speculate, sure. I've done it, but some amount of evidence is needed to even show it may have happened. A second minor bump later in the flight, additional occillations, whatever. But there is nothing to indicate these things.

_________________________________________________

Blevins: Your point is well-taken, I understand what you're saying. Nonetheless, the evidence still does not constitute proof. Georger says there's another take on the evidence from Farflung, 377, Snowman, et al. I would be interested in looking at that. I'll reserve further comment until I do some more study. MeyerLouie

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The idea that the rebounding of the airstairs, the indicator light going off for a moment, and then coming back on for good, is the best evidence supporting the idea that Cooper jumped at the time the crew said he did. There just isn't any evidence showing otherwise. I mean, it's pure speculation. It's okay to speculate, sure. I've done it, but some amount of evidence is needed to even show it may have happened. A second minor bump later in the flight, additional occillations, whatever. But there is nothing to indicate these things.

_________________________________________________

Blevins: Your point is well-taken, I understand what you're saying. Nonetheless, the evidence still does not constitute proof. Georger says there's another take on the evidence from Farflung, 377, Snowman, et al. I would be interested in looking at that. I'll reserve further comment until I do some more study. MeyerLouie



As usual I am not sure what Blevins is saying! Frankly
it does not matter. He's been accused by writer of
being a "failed writer" so evidently my experience re-
Blevins is shared by at least a couple of other human
beings!

Blevins is totally irrelevant in any event. That is the
humorous part, and well deserved. :D.

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'The Brian Ingram source has had problems of its own...'



Well, after he and his family removed the money from the beach, without taking pictures of the evidence in place before doing so...then how do you expect to find out the position of the bills at the time they were found? Answer: You can't. The only source comes from the person who found them and removed them.

Some of you folks around here are plenty smart, but sometimes lacking in common sense.

.



Once again your facts are wrong. Your conclusions
wrong. And your attitude, as usual, sucks -

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'The Brian Ingram source has had problems of its own...'



Well, after he and his family removed the money from the beach, without taking pictures of the evidence in place before doing so...then how do you expect to find out the position of the bills at the time they were found? Answer: You can't. The only source comes from the person who found them and removed them.

Some of you folks around here are plenty smart, but sometimes lacking in common sense.

.


Once again your facts are wrong. Your conclusions
wrong. And your attitude, as usual, sucks -


My facts are wrong? Conclusions wrong? Okay, how? You kind of skipped over that part.

Anytime you are ready to explore the case (once you get past your personal issues) you'll be sure to let us know, right? :S


The personal issues are yours, very clearly. You have a
personality disorder - directed at everyone, not just
me.

Facts: Brian played no role in removing the money.
His parents (particularly the father, did that). Others
2 adults and 2 children including Brian) watched. The father and the mother gave a good description to the FBI of the orientation of the block of money.

The rest you can read in your copy of the Palmer
Report you say you have.

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Without understanding how they arrived at their conclusions makes it a one-sided research project. You can't verify your own research without knowing how they arrived at theirs.

__________________________________________________

You can't be serious, Blevins. Why would you need to know their research in order to verify your own research? Your own research will live on its own merits if it's done right. Any errors of their ways will come to light, automatically. You don't need confirmation from someone else's research in order to do your own quality research -- unless you are totally co-dependent. Where, on God's green earth, do you come up with these crazy conclusions, Blevins?

MeyerLouie

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Without understanding how they arrived at their conclusions makes it a one-sided research project. You can't verify your own research without knowing how they arrived at theirs.

__________________________________________________

You can't be serious, Blevins. Why would you need to know their research in order to verify your own research? Your own research will live on its own merits if it's done right. Any errors of their ways will come to light, automatically. You don't need confirmation from someone else's research in order to do your own quality research -- unless you are totally co-dependent. Where, on God's green earth, do you come up with these crazy conclusions, Blevins?

MeyerLouie



Simplicity At Work: Because you need baseline data to compare your conclusions, especially if they differ from the FBI's version. You say the FBI's flight path map might be wrong. Fine. Based on what? In order to compare something to something else, and prove that the original version is wrong, you need details on the original version that was created. What data was used? Was it accurate or not? HOW was it created? WHO is responsible for the conclusions?

Without knowing those things, it's difficult to prove error.

Especially the last two items.



So, you believe in Original Sin? And in order to
understand and verify the sin of today, one must first
know and understand the sin of Adam and Eve?

Do you actually think people here are in need of your
"instruction" ?

Who and what do you think you are and why are you
lecturing people at Dropzone?

Don't pull the boulders out of thine own eye!

Your myopic lessons laid out here every day for
almost three years, defines you! The troll is
a troll and is addicted to his trolling nonsense, as
if he was a genius, or just a common crazy person.

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Flight path re-creation

1) we have the FBI map showing the path.
2) followed V-23 (basically)
3) two sets of radio transcripts
4) minute by minute time frames of the path
5) information on flight controls (not known to the public)
6) interviews with Scott and Rat on locations.
7) weather data all the way down the path
8) I know the altitudes, changes in speed and time of turns.
9) simulator is very accurate with positions, altitude and speed.
10) my co-pilot is very familiar (more than myself) on the path and weather data.

Now, given the above conclusions one would think they could
re-create the flight path. I have more info if needed?

Blevins, you speak of people not having common sense?
how did you come to the conclusion of how Cooper jumped
off the stairs without any baseline or data? no witnesses or
any experience in parachutes?

the police recreate a murder scene based on what they have.
most of the time they nail it! this is the same thing we are doing.
why do you think I am talking with Robert99, I'm soaking up the
knowledge he has because I trust and respect his comments!
I also have great respect for Georger contrary to your beliefs
he has not lost any credibility in my book....


are you familiar with Sage Radar, how it works?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Blevins, since you seem to want to know all of this...

I was on another site talking with others about the flight path.
this was back in June of 2012. I told these guys I have a flight
simulator and could recreate the flight path. I had no idea what
I was getting into and what was involved until I started.

My simulator is based from Microsoft 2004 Century Of Flight. this
is rather old but, nobody has been able to match it for years. I then
added Dreamfleet 727. this software has the entire 727 fleet that
include a 3D cockpit, manual start and fully functional controls. I also
added the NWA 727 for visual effects. I have a seating chart which
I can add or remove passengers and cargo. I have done extensive
testing on the flaps, speed, altitude. ground speed, auto pilot etc.

The onboard weather system was not doing as well as planned so
i also upgraded this with the best known weather program which
is ASE, Active Sky Evolution. this program fits the needs that Hominid
required in order to have the right conditions.

Our position with this project to date is from take off to Toledo/Maylay
area. we have encountered problems with the time frames as Robert99
also found. this is what it is all about, finding problems and solving them.

Now, I have about 300 hours into just flying this section of the path
along with the testing. I already gave you a baseline and data which I
believe we can recreate the FBI flight path! this is something that can
not be done over night, I'm sure you now realize we are taking each
step with caution to ensure accuracy.

after adding everything to the system, my computer was not powerful enough
to handle the load and needed replaced.

December 2012 I bought a Dell computer but, the computer will not accept
my flight yoke system. I have tried every possible fix.
1) upgraded all drivers
2) up graded power supply
3) talked with Dell
4) talked with the company who made the yoke
5) added a powered USB
6) added a power supply to the yoke system
7) changed the operating system
8) reformatted the hard drive

all options have failed causing me to search out another computer. I believe
I have done my homework to ensure accuracy in this project!!

here is a pic of my homemade cockpit.....
any further questions?????
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Mr. Shutter wrote:
Quote

December 2012 I bought a Dell computer but, the computer will not accept
my flight yoke system. I have tried every possible fix.
1) upgraded all drivers
2) up graded power supply
3) talked with Dell
4) talked with the company who made the yoke
5) added a powered USB
6) added a power supply to the yoke system
7) changed the operating system
8) reformatted the hard drive

all options have failed causing me to search out another computer. I believe
I have done my homework to ensure accuracy in this project!!



You sure have done your homework and I sincerely appreciate it. While some snipe and squabble, others work quietly in the background and try to actually analyse the evidence we do have.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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I'm going to speculate that, since it's water level information, HG may stand for either HydroGraph or Hydrologic Gage. Perhaps the letters following HG are an identifier of some sort.



he wins the cigar!

Pick the latter.

water data is collected with gauges at gauge stations.
you will see the gauge stations listed by number and
sometimes a name... Hydrologic Gage No. 474645
eg. Hanford HG: 4645 etc In tables then listed as HG:
6353 with data in a column ... rows of columns for the
different gauge stations.

Pretty funny!

:S

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You sure have and I sincerely appreciate it. While some snipe and squablle, others work quietly in the background and try to actually analyse the evidence we do have.

377



some !? You mean RobertMBlevins? Not to mention
you and Jo Weber ?

:D

Give us a break!

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"You sure have and I sincerely appreciate it."

Thanks for the kind words 377, I'm just trying to validate the map, plain and simple.
I should be able to find out where all the problems exist and what we can learn from
them. perhaps we won't find anything, I don't know. it's low budget, who could rent
a 727 and do the things a simulator can?

as I've said in the past, it's fun, I'm learning all kinds of things, it's worth a crack at it no
doubt about it B|

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UXz2x2N74

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Shutter says in part:

Quote

'Blevins, you speak of people not having common sense? how did you come to the conclusion of how Cooper jumped off the stairs without any baseline or data? no witnesses or any experience in parachutes?'



I don't know about the experience part. The FBI first thought the hijacker had a fair amount of jump experience, then later Larry Carr discounted that idea. I disagree, but on that point people do have differing opinions. The hijacker didn't know what chutes he was going to get, and yet he worked with them as if he knew what he was doing.

The best witnesses to the jump are the crew. Rataczak's testimony has been pretty consistent on that regarding the bump, occillations, door indicator light coming on, then off for a second, then on for good, with no more incidents all the way to Reno. That's the best evidence available that the crew was correct in saying they knew WHEN Cooper jumped, but not where he landed. (Depends on when he pulled the ripcord)

I think the flight path/sim research is a great idea, and kudos to those involved. The only thing I pointed out was that without knowing HOW the FBI came to the conclusions they did (flight path/map), then it's difficult to discount those conclusions, especially if any NEW conclusions are substantially different than the originals.

A mile or two might not make that much difference, but if someone says he jumped over the Columbia or the flight passed near Tina Bar, then you have to know the parameters on the FBI's conclusions, in order to support this theory. Like you, I would like to know who created the famous FBI flight map, because you would like to go to the source. Find out what people were responsible for it, and what data they used to make it.



Blevins, You just did an excellent job of ducking the question.

My reading of Mrshutter's question is that he is asking YOU how you came to your conclusions since you don't have a baseline, any data, no witnesses, or any personal experience with parachutes.

Robert99

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Blevins, you speak of people not having common sense? how did you come to the conclusion of how Cooper jumped off the stairs without any baseline or data? no witnesses or any experience in parachutes?

the police recreate a murder scene based on what they have. most of the time they nail it! this is the same thing we are doing.
why do you think I am talking with Robert99, I'm soaking up the knowledge he has because I trust and respect his comments!
I also have great respect for Georger contrary to your beliefs he has not lost any credibility in my book....

are you familiar with Sage Radar, how it works?



_________________________________________________

Blevins:

It seems people like Mrshutter45, Robert99, Georger, me, and others here have got your number. I'm not speaking for them, but I've heard each and every one of them, here on this forum, at one time or another, question your credibility, your methods, and/or your conclusions. How does one face people without any credibility? Where's the shame, where's the integrity? C'mon man, you gotta know.

MeyerLouie

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"A mile or two might not make that much difference, but if someone says he jumped over the Columbia or the flight passed near Tina Bar, then you have to know the parameters on the FBI's conclusions, in order to support this theory. Like you, I would like to know who created the famous FBI flight map, because you would like to go to the source. Find out what people were responsible for it, and what data they used to make it. "

Robert, Robert......Robert

where on the FBI map does it show it anywhere near Tena Bar? I don't care what someone say's! I care what the locations on the map show! I repeat, I have enough evidence in order to recreate the FBI flight path. I don't have any evidence supporting the plane over Tena Bar.

we are checking the time frames given on the FBI map.
we are going by time frames from the transcripts that were given to the FBI.

The FBI flight path map has problems with time, the best way to sort them out is
to fly the path the way it has been documented!

everyone else seems to be on board, when are you jumping on????

I asked you once if you knew what a sage radar was?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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"Let me ask a question: If the stairs only drop between 24 and 36 inches after they are opened in flight...then how do you begin to go down the stairs without tumbling to the bottom? That was the question I asked myself one day. "

Just like this! only watch the first couple minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVW_yr10Vss
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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Quote

Shutter says in part:

Quote

'Blevins, you speak of people not having common sense? how did you come to the conclusion of how Cooper jumped off the stairs without any baseline or data? no witnesses or any experience in parachutes?'



I don't know about the experience part. The FBI first thought the hijacker had a fair amount of jump experience, then later Larry Carr discounted that idea. I disagree, but on that point people do have differing opinions. The hijacker didn't know what chutes he was going to get, and yet he worked with them as if he knew what he was doing.

The best witnesses to the jump are the crew. Rataczak's testimony has been pretty consistent on that regarding the bump, occillations, door indicator light coming on, then off for a second, then on for good, with no more incidents all the way to Reno. That's the best evidence available that the crew was correct in saying they knew WHEN Cooper jumped, but not where he landed. (Depends on when he pulled the ripcord)

I think the flight path/sim research is a great idea, and kudos to those involved. The only thing I pointed out was that without knowing HOW the FBI came to the conclusions they did (flight path/map), then it's difficult to discount those conclusions, especially if any NEW conclusions are substantially different than the originals.

A mile or two might not make that much difference, but if someone says he jumped over the Columbia or the flight passed near Tina Bar, then you have to know the parameters on the FBI's conclusions, in order to support this theory. Like you, I would like to know who created the famous FBI flight map, because you would like to go to the source. Find out what people were responsible for it, and what data they used to make it.



Blevins, You just did an excellent job of ducking the question.

My reading of Mrshutter's question is that he is asking YOU how you came to your conclusions since you don't have a baseline, any data, no witnesses, or any personal experience with parachutes.

Robert99



_________________________________________________

Blevins: Remember Rosanna Rosanna Danna on Saturday Night Live? The late Gilda Radner played the part. Well this post makes you the new Rosanna Rosanna Dana. You were asked a question, you didn't really hear it, you only heard what you wanted to hear. But that didn't stop you, you did your little lecture anyway -- without having eally heard the question, without having really answered the question -- just like Rosanna Rosanna Danna used to do. Kudos on your impersonation, it was good.

I guess it's really true -- some folks don't have a whole lot to say, but that usually doesn't keep 'em from talking.

MeyerLouie

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Ducking the question? The question was...how did I come to the idea on how exactly Cooper exited the aircraft? I have answered that one several times.

Let me ask a question: If the stairs only drop between 24 and 36 inches after they are opened in flight...then how do you begin to go down the stairs without tumbling to the bottom? That was the question I asked myself one day.

I don't believe the hijacker expected that to happen, unless he had jumped a 727 before. Now he's looking at a fairly narrow gap while wearing a chute and carrying a load. Sure, you could look at that and just lean over and try to get down the stairs. Maybe he did that. Or maybe he looked at that situation and turned around, making his way down backwards while holding onto the railing. Those stairs are going to drop, and I just figured it was safer to back down instead of going forward, maybe having the stairs take a sudden drop, and then its Hasta Lavista off the end for you.

No one really knows, of course. And whether he went forward or backward doesn't matter much. He wasn't there when they got to Reno, so he exited somehow.



Blevins, Surely you are aware that Ralph Himmelsbach's book describes a USAF jumper walking down to the last step on the stairs.

What is the source of your recurring claim that Cooper had to go through a 2 by 3 foot hole when he jumped?

Robert99

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I think your main problem is guessing, you take a crack at something and
stick to it, like the stairs. you claim that KC might be Cooper, but feel the need
to tell us over and over as if you have solid proof KC is Cooper.

parts of the film is staged, when the actor is on the stairs (close up)
the jump was clearly done! as far as I know, nobody has recreated
the jump by night, or at the speed 305 was at. Robert99 believes the
plane was going slower than 305.

did you even notice the stuntman went down the stairs backwards?

305 had a wind load on the stairs, this could stop it from extending
fully.....not enough weight....that's a guess....
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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I think your main problem is guessing, you take a crack at something and
stick to it, like the stairs. you claim that KC might be Cooper, but feel the need
to tell us over and over as if you have solid proof KC is Cooper.

parts of the film is staged, when the actor is on the stairs (close up)
the jump was clearly done! as far as I know, nobody has recreated
the jump by night, or at the speed 305 was at. Robert99 believes the
plane was going slower than 305.

did you even notice the stuntman went down the stairs backwards?

305 had a wind load on the stairs, this could stop it from extending
fully.....not enough weight....that's a guess....



Blevins should note that the stairs in the Treat Williams movie did not rebound all the way up. This strongly indicates that the aircraft was going quite a bit slower than NWA 305.

In the FBI tests using the NWA 305 aircraft and flight crew, when the sled was released, the stairs rebounded giving the same indication of a "pressure bump" that the flight crew had noticed during the hijacking. This indicates that the aircraft was going about the same airspeed as in the Cooper jump, that the stairs had been deflected downwards about the same as in the Cooper jump, etc.. There are pictures available somewhere on these FBI tests.

I'm not aware of any sources giving the exact airspeed in the FBI tests when the jumper walked down to the bottom step. He walked back up the stairs and didn't jump.

All of the above has been discussed endlessly on this thread before. And no doubt it will be back in another couple of months.

Robert99

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