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DB Cooper

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Amazon warned
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Many USAF pilots learned the hard way that all the electronic gadgets demand far too much attention in the cockpit while "interesting" things were happening out there on the other side of their canopy around them in the far too real world.


I see some newbie skydivers going out and buying all the gadgets and then getting electronic brain lock leading to going in with those things. Too many distractions in freefall can and have in the past led to high speed craters on our planet. Just reference all the new people sticking a damn Go-Pro to their helmets to get "COOL YOUTUBE VIDEO". How many dead friends do you have who were in this sport and trying to get cool video.



All good points Amazon. Distracted skydiving is deadly.

I'd never use the HUD goggles in RW formation jumps. Jumpers need to see the other jumpers eyes in RW and the mirrored lens of the HUD goggles block this critical info. They also don't have great peripheral vision.

I'm using the HUD for my HAHO radio jumps where I am normally the last out, open right out of the plane and share the sky with no other jumpers.

Years of jumping at WFFC (very crowded skies and LZs at times) make me do a lot of scanning and head swivelling. It's a good habit. Many times I have spotted other jumpers that have no idea I am near them and fly their whole approach and landing without spotting me.

I've been jumping for 45 years. Seeing others have mishaps has made me very conservative. I'd rather land far away from the swoopers and walk a few hundred yards than mix my big slow canopy with their zippy postage stamp chutes. I jump a big main and big reserve (190 and 193 sq ft). Always use an AAD. Always wear a helmet, etc. Oh, and I dont text in flight either.

I am not accident proof, but I sure take efforts to manage and mitigate the risks. I want to jump into my eighties if I can do it safely. I jumped with an 81 year old guy at WFFC and he was awesome. Highly skilled RW flyer, sharp, fit and very aware. He inspired me.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Georger wrote
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Farflung is saying that no special
skills were required or even 'evidenced' in Cooper's
crime, until something specific is identified that
separates Cooper from the general population, or
puts Cooper squarely in a special population of
McCoy's, Sheridans, etc. Farflung is saying no such
proof has been given, to his satisfaction



Great summary of Farf's very logical fact based conclusion.

He may be right. DBC could have been a Whuffo.

Still, there are clues that he was aviation savvy. He gave very specific commands about flap angle, altitude, airspeed gear configuration and pressurization. Most Whuffos dont know a flap from an elevator or spoiler. Most Whuffos wouldn't think about exit speeds. Most whuffos wouldnt think about flying depressurized.

I still think DBC KNEW a 727 could be jumped. I cant prove it though. If he didnt know, he was taking a huge chance of entering an aluminum jail cell that would deliver him to the authorities upon landing.

Very few people knew in 1971 that a 727 could be jumped. I didnt know it and at that time I owned a big 727 flight manual. Neither the Capt, FO or FE knew either. Nobody at NWA ops knew. They had to call Boeing.

Guys privy to the Air America SAT 727 jumps over Thailand knew. Guys who worked on or had access to info on Boeings flight tests knew.

Not one of my many jumper friends in 1971 knew. We all wondered how the hell DBC knew he could get out of a 727 in flight.

Jo insisted to me that 727s were used for air drops in SE Asia. I was sure she was mistaken but started researching and found extensive documentation verifying Jo's claim. Snow dug even deeper.

Jo, how did you know? Was it a guess? Did someone tell you? If so who? What exactly did they tell you if you can recall?

I'd love to ask Sheridan if he knew. It doesnt make him DBC but it tells us something about how widely the info spread in SE Asia.

The jumps in SE Asia were not exactly the same as Cooper's (stairs appear to have been removed) but they conveyed a lot of info about the practicality of jumping from a 727. You still needed to know that the door could be opened and the stairs deployed in flight. My guess is that Boeing had this additional info as a result of their flight tests.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Many USAF pilots learned the hard way that all the electronic gadgets demand far too much attention in the cockpit while "interesting" things were happening out there on the other side of their canopy around them in the far too real world.

.[:/][:/]



documented - verified. Understatement of the last
half of the 20th century, for some? Real world won.
Well the pilots won - or some of my best friends and
former classmates would not be around to attend
reunions! What a cluster ruck! There are some great
testimonials out there ...

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Oh my, pop back in to say a (belated) happy new year and to see if the case has been solved yet (apparently not) and find I am a subject of discussion :$

Bruce, I would never chuck you put sans chute. However, I would probably take delight in the terrified-first-jumper expression on your face :).

Hope everyone is well. I've obviously been gone a long time - just skipped to last page which was literally hundreds and hundreds on from where it took me to "first unread" so I have no idea what's been going on, but see the old faithfuls still around :)
Fwiw I agree with 377 that Cooper knew a 727 could be jumped. And I still like my theory that Cooper had military experience of some sort overseas, and disappeared back somewhere - Asia or central Africa -where either the US military and/or the CiA had been active, and where dollar bills could easily be put into circulation without the serial number being checked. Sheridan could fit that bill, but so could (I speculate) plenty others we haven't even heard of. Have there been any other new potential suspects named here?

For those interested, life is good here on the southern tip. Baby O is now 4 and has started early at school, having been assessed with the math skills of an 8-year old...she's reading easily, and is a delight. Perhaps she will solve the Cooper case in a few years' time ;) though right now she is more interested in when we will visit Disneyland. The rest of the family is well.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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He may be right. DBC could have been a Whuffo.

Still, there are clues that he was aviation savvy. He gave very specific commands about flap angle, altitude, airspeed gear configuration and pressurization. Most Whuffos dont know a flap from an elevator or spoiler. Most Whuffos wouldn't think about exit speeds. Most whuffos wouldnt think about flying depressurized.

I still think DBC KNEW a 727 could be jumped.

377



Ckret might reply: 'knew just enough to get into
trouble'. And some of this socalled 'knowledge' can be
formed just sitting in an airport lounge watching the
727 land, rear stairs come down, and drawn up.

Cooper's manual: the Gilbert Hijacking Set ?????

The particles on the tie and some other specific
evidence is a little more difficult to dismiss or do a
work-around.

Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.

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Oh my, pop back in to say a (belated) happy new year and to see if the case has been solved yet (apparently not) and find I am a subject of discussion :$

Bruce, I would never chuck you put sans chute. However, I would probably take delight in the terrified-first-jumper expression on your face :).

Hope everyone is well. I've obviously been gone a long time - just skipped to last page which was literally hundreds and hundreds on from where it took me to "first unread" so I have no idea what's been going on, but see the old faithfuls still around :)
Fwiw I agree with 377 that Cooper knew a 727 could be jumped. And I still like my theory that Cooper had military experience of some sort overseas, and disappeared back somewhere - Asia or central Africa -where either the US military and/or the CiA had been active, and where dollar bills could easily be put into circulation without the serial number being checked. Sheridan could fit that bill, but so could (I speculate) plenty others we haven't even heard of. Have there been any other new potential suspects named here?

For those interested, life is good here on the southern tip. Baby O is now 4 and has started early at school, having been assessed with the math skills of an 8-year old...she's reading easily, and is a delight. Perhaps she will solve the Cooper case in a few years' time ;) though right now she is more interested in when we will visit Disneyland. The rest of the family is well.



WELCOME HOME!

:)

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So good to hear from you Orange! We know whose quant genes Baby O inherited. Sounds like one very smart kid.

Big data crunching is the rage these days. I wonder if it could be used to find suspects that have thus far escaped attention?

I'll bet Snow is already working on it.

Stick around Orange. Its a sunnier place with you here.
And E. Vicki, give us a shout. Hang out with your friends here.

We seem to have entered a peaceful collegial period here. Lets hope it endures.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote
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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote

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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377



Thanks for the nice welcome back, Georger and 377!

Re above quotes - can you briefly fill me in on farf's baseline?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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G wrote

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Farf's baseline must be taken seriously.



I know. I just dont like it. I want Cooper to be a mad skills jumper, not a friggin Whuffo.

377



Thanks for the nice welcome back, Georger and 377!

Re above quotes - can you briefly fill me in on farf's baseline?



You are more than welcome.

377 can (and should) add his take on Farf's Law.

Farf compared other hijackings to Cooper's and
concluded that nothing really stood out as special,
or is required as being special, about Cooper's
hijacking.

That the Cooper hijacking must be viewed as on
a par with the other hijackings which occurred within
the same period, in the same region.

No special skills or knowledge required.

I *hope* this is a fair statement of Farf's baseline
principle.

Now for you in particular: that the Cooper hijacking
and all other hijackings, all fit statistically, in their
details. (including details such as loss of money
during the bailout, etc...) Except that Cooper was not
caught while all the others were.

Is this your understanding 377 ?

Where is Farflung ?

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The jumps in SE Asia were not exactly the same as Cooper's (stairs appear to have been removed) but they conveyed a lot of info about the practicality of jumping from a 727. You still needed to know that the door could be opened and the stairs deployed in flight. My guess is that Boeing had this additional info as a result of their flight tests.

377



While Farflung's famous video does appear to have the 727's rear stairs removed, if that was the usual case how did Cooper know that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight and that the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked? Maybe Cooper observed such operations.

Presumably, the 727 could be pressurized by just closing the door at the rear of the pressure hull even if the rear stairs were not on the aircraft. And then the aircraft could climb to a higher altitude for better range, etc..

Also, give some thought as to how and why the 727 aircraft got involved in such operations in the first place? There were plenty of military aircraft that could perform any mission that was assigned to the 727. Except, of course, look like a 727 civilian airliner.

And I'll bet it wasn't Boeing that paid for the redesign of the rear stairs or for the flight tests to check everything out.

Robert99

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377


There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.

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So, being curious by the MACVSOG/Advisor idea. I asked a former MACVSOG Soldier could one be "In Viet Nam" and not be?

His answer; "Yes" and he showed me a set of order showing him in the I Corp, as he showed me a picture in a photo album as part of a wedding party. Two locations, at one time, no leave forms or travel orders, just an assignment posting and a picture.

Today with the tech that may be a bit harder to pull off with out help.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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Quote

Quote

G wrote

Quote

Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377


There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.


I want proof Cooper did that!
:D

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Robt 99 wrote
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And I'll bet it wasn't Boeing that paid for the redesign of the rear stairs or for the flight tests to check everything out.

Robert99



I bet you are 100% right Robert and there is precedent for such mods to be paid for by the govt.

Pan Am's passenger 747s were outfitted with heavy duty freighter floors at the request of the US govt who subsidized them heavily. The govt paid for the mods and gave Pan Am a profitable yearly subsidy to compensate for the higher weight and extra fuel burn.
The military wanted reserve airlift capacity in case of an emergency and this was a cheap way to get it.

The unsubstantiated rumors about the 727 being made (or tested to be) jumpable was that civil airliners are routinely given overflight permission above hostile countries such as Cuba, Iran etc. The rumor was that 727s could drop people or payloads covertly while appearing to be regular airline flights.

I still think Ted Braden (MACV SOG soldier and deserter) hasn't been ruled out conclusively. He had the skills and financial motive. He was apparently much more of a sociopath type than Sheridan Peterson. He must have had some dirt on someone to get basically a free pass for desertion during a war. Might it have been enough to get a free pass on Norjack? I doubt it but I can't rule it out.

Orange, Farflung just reminded all us Cooper romantics that a Whuffo could have made the jump. He has several examples of skyjackers who made their first jump from an airliner and landed alive.

I can't attack Farf's facts but I do think Cooper's flight configuration demands to the crew and his alleged easy donning of the NB 8 (or NB 6, still some controversy about this) rig say he was no Whuffo.

I bought a stock military packed NB 8 rig to the Cooper Symposium in Portland. No skydiving mods, just a bailout rig. TSA at SFO: "Sir, why are you carrying a parachute on this flight?" 377: "I'm taking it to a skyjacking convention in Portland."

I picked a non jumper from the audience and asked him to put the NB8 rig on. He spent many minutes and couldnt do it until I showed him how. The NB 6 and 8 have a very confusing chest strap arrangement that even had me stumped the first time I tried to put one on. It clips the apexes of two V webbing straps together to form a chest strap. It is far different from the belt type chest strap arrangement on a B 12 or other miltary bailout rig.

To be balanced, Ralph Himmelsbach told me that there is nothing to substantiate the account that Cooper donned the rig with ease or that Cooper examined the packing card. I thank Jerry Thomas for vouching for me to Ralph, who was friendly and cooperative.

I asked non jumper volunteers to find the packing card on the NB 8 and nobody succeeded. It is quite well hidden. Whuffos dont even know what a packing card is. Had Cooper VERIFIABLY pulled the packing cards it would rule him out as a Whuffo IMO.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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G wrote

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Real world won.



In skydiving gravity always wins. You just want to be sure gravity doesnt hit a grand slam. Bruce thinks gravity can be made optional, but I dont agree. ;)

If Bruce is right, imagine how it could change skydiving. No planes, no rigs, no DZ. Just hop and drop, anywhere.

377


There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life. Throwing a pilot chute at the planet at some point in the jump usually is a good start at saving your own life.


I want proof Cooper did that!
:D


Don't we all.;)

7:28 in the video:ph34r::ph34r:

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Amazon wrote:
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There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life.



Not necessarily. AADs have delivered jumpers to the ground alive who did nothing after exiting the plane. Maybe the "something" was buying and arming their AAD.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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Amazon wrote:

Quote

There is one hard and fast rule of skydiving.... when you leave the door of the airplane in flight... you have to do SOMETHING to save your life.



No necessarily. AADs have delivered jumpers to the ground alive who did nothing after exiting the plane. Maybe the "something" was buying and arming their AAD. .

377


Yup... but anyone who has had an AAD fire because they did not attempt to do anything had better thank their luck that someone had the presence of mind to turn it on. Loss of altitude awareness used to be a death sentence. Remember these guys???? Then again. if some moron relies on an AAD to do the important stuff in a skydive... they need to take up GOLF.. :S

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Jo insisted to me that 727s were used for air drops in SE Asia. I was sure she was mistaken but started researching and found extensive documentation verifying Jo's claim. Snow dug even deeper.

Jo, how did you know? Was it a guess? Did someone tell you? If so who? What exactly did they tell you if you can recall?

377




I will explain this ONE last time:

Duane and I were watching a program on TV. This program showed the 727 or a forerunner being jump and Duane made a unforgettable comment. His specfic words are lost to me now.

He did talk about JM Wave to me and that they used the 727's or another plane that could be jumped in this way. I now forget exactly what he said. I have had a really bad day - health wise.

At another time earlier in our marriage on a trip to FL. he talked about the 2 planes that JMWave used. He even showed me the building JMWave housed their operation out of. I just thought it was history, but he used the word WE in this discussion. Right now I do not even remember the location, but it was the same trip he made the stop at that night club where he disappeared for a while and knew the owner - asking for him by name. I was NOT introduced to the man.

You will need to find some of my earlier posts about this. The medication has me all messed up right now.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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I picked a non jumper from the audience and asked him to put the NB8 rig on. He spent many minutes and couldnt do it until I showed him how. The NB 6 and 8 have a very confusing chest strap arrangement that even had me stumped the first time I tried to put one on. It clips the apexes of two V webbing straps together to form a chest strap. It is far different from the belt type chest strap arrangement on a B 12 or other miltary bailout rig.

To be balanced, Ralph Himmelsbach told me that there is nothing to substantiate the account that Cooper donned the rig with ease or that Cooper examined the packing card. I thank Jerry Thomas for vouching for me to Ralph, who was friendly and cooperative.

I asked non jumper volunteers to find the packing card on the NB 8 and nobody succeeded. It is quite well hidden. Whuffos dont even know what a packing card is. Had Cooper VERIFIABLY pulled the packing cards it would rule him out as a Whuffo IMO.

377



Tosaw's book has the story, straight from Tina, starting on page 32, of how Cooper checked the packing card, checked the ripcord pins on the back, and put the parachute on.

I used to use an NB-6 routinely and I agree that you have to watch what you are doing when putting it on. Just getting the leg straps straightened out required attention.

The chest straps remind me of the later Security 150 and 250 model parachutes which I never liked for that reason. I much prefer the relatively high mounted chest strap type harness.

I imagine that the packing card for your NB-8 was on the container and several inches down from the top and between the container and back pad.

Robert99

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Jo insisted to me that 727s were used for air drops in SE Asia. I was sure she was mistaken but started researching and found extensive documentation verifying Jo's claim. Snow dug even deeper.

Jo, how did you know? Was it a guess? Did someone tell you? If so who? What exactly did they tell you if you can recall?

377




I will explain this ONE last time:

Duane and I were watching a program on TV. This program showed the 727 or a forerunner being jump and Duane made a unforgettable comment. His specfic words are lost to me now.

He did talk about JM Wave to me and that they used the 727's or another plane that could be jumped in this way. I now forget exactly what he said. I have had a really bad day - health wise.

At another time earlier in our marriage on a trip to FL. he talked about the 2 planes that JMWave used. He even showed me the building JMWave housed their operation out of. I just thought it was history, but he used the word WE in this discussion. Right now I do not even remember the location, but it was the same trip he made the stop at that night club where he disappeared for a while and knew the owner - asking for him by name. I was NOT introduced to the man.

You will need to find some of my earlier posts about this. The medication has me all messed up right now.



Jo, Check out the information on Wikipedia about JM Wave. It was set up in the early 1960s to support operations related to Cuba. And it got outed in the mid-1960s and was closed about 1968.

It is unlikely, in my humble opinion, that 727s would be overflying Cuba to drop equipment. Other aircraft would be more suitable for doing something like that, if indeed aircraft were necessary at all. For putting personnel ashore, a small boat would easily get the job done. Just keep in mind that Cuba is a relatively small island and not SE Asia.

I believe you have stated that you married Duane in the late 1970s long after JM Wave was closed and had considerable media attention. Maybe Duane just read the newspapers.

Robert99

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