georger 197
377 20
18E wrote
He must have been an engineer, oblivious to fashion. A suit is a suit. A clip on tie is a tie. I've been there. Never had a pocket protector though, just ink stained pockets.
377
QuoteThanks and thanks for the welcome wagon.
Q1: Why did Cooper choose to dress out-of-date? He looked 1965 not 1971
He must have been an engineer, oblivious to fashion. A suit is a suit. A clip on tie is a tie. I've been there. Never had a pocket protector though, just ink stained pockets.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 197
Quote18E wrote
QuoteThanks and thanks for the welcome wagon.
Q1: Why did Cooper choose to dress out-of-date? He looked 1965 not 1971
He must have been an engineer, oblivious to fashion. A suit is a suit. A clip on tie is a tie. I've been there. Never had a pocket protector though, just ink stained pockets.
377
See? There we go. Everyone has a bias.
(and is damned sure it has to be their view)
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteThe description given of his dress. The overall description was that of cropped and narrow. That was '60s style (remember the tie...narrow-straight) not early '70s. Seventies was flared and wide. So, Cooper was either oblivious to style, cheap, oblivious to standing out (wouldn't you be easier noticed and ID) or dare I say it...working for the U.S.
I am in my 70's and a woman.
1971 was a transition stage for men's fashion. Low income individual were trying to feed their kids - not keep up with fashion.
I was still married to the Father of my children in 1971. His work took him into the field (yea, another insurance saleman - I attracted them like flies to honey). He would wear clip on tied into the field because it got hot and he could undo it in the car and it was easy to put on before he went to his next appointment.
The wider ties did come into vogue in the 70's but, not in certain fields - like salemen working debits, waiters, head waiters, doormen, bus drivers.
Clip-ons were easy and cheap.
I will note the tie the FBI presented was not the real narrows of former yrs, but still considered narrow by fashion standards.
Jo... Something I think the boys are missing..... How many of your boyfriends/ fiancés/husband did you have to dress.. Way too many men just did not have a clue of what was the in thing to wear back in those days. Some did.. but many ... clueless when it came to the right thing to wear.
georger 197
QuoteQuoteThe physical profile provided by the FBI comes from sources who (as Geoff Gray pointed out, pg 92-93) differed greatly in their descriptions of the hijacker.
Ckret of course said that was not (is not) true.
Then you have Geoff Gray, who was allowed access to the original FBI witness reports...who says it IS true.
Witness Robert Gregory pegged the hijacker at no taller than five foot nine, by the way. Quote:
Quote'Not that tall,' Gregory tells the Feds. About five foot nine...'
From some of the others:
Tina Mucklow: Five ten to six feet.
Flo Schaffner: Six feet, no shorter.
George Labissoniere: No older than 35.
Cord Spreckel: About 50 years of age. He had a square jaw.
Bill Mitchell: He had a saggy chin.
The three stews also selected different combinations from the FBI's Facial Identification Catalog.
Stew Alice Hancock thought his hair was wavy, while Mucklow said it was straight. Both got good looks at him.
Robert Gregory thought the hijacker's hair was so shiny it could have been a dye job.
No matter how you cut the mustard, this is typical in eyewitness descriptions, which are a lot like the old story of the blind men trying to identify the elephant. Everyone's description is a bit different.
My opinion on Ckret is simple. He got some things right, and on others I am not so sure.
Well, firstly you dont know anything about SA Carr.
You are in no position to judge any of this outside of
your trying to squeeze your client Christian through
the door to a movie script. THAT is your mission.
You are a script writer...
On the substative issue of identification, it seems
you also failed to read the thread, because if you
had you would know SA Carr DID NOT take a
monolithic view of the identification of Cooper. Go
back and read his posts! He mentions there was
some difference between witnesses. There was a
process.There was not just one interview of
witnesses ...
moreover some witnesses even said they had not
seen Cooper only to surface later in the media
claiming this and that ...... Larry addresses that.
It leads me to wonder, in the context of many other
things, just what file or files Gray saw and read, or
what slcie of the entire process he was given a file
(of files) on ... because as we all know Seattle where
Gray researched does not even have all of the files
in this case!
Your strong bias is well known. I have told you a
million times GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD.
I can only repeat that advice but you take no one's
advice - you only give advice.
Hopefully the original poster will be learning
something here firsthand, from this exchange.
A lot of FACTS have been stated, including yours.
If we take Geoff Gray account of this matter, then
DB Cooper was almost anybody or nobody! If we
take your account ... DB Cooper was Kenneth
Christiansen who you then say you cannot prove was
DB Cooper.
Quote
Actually, I think he looked about 1960 with that tie. If I remember correctly, the 1-inch wide ties were in their full glory by 1961. And remember that this was a 99 cent tie that he probably bought at his local drug store. It was definitely not high fashion by any standards.
Robert99
I have a suggestion - pull pictures of insurance salemen with dates on them from 1967 to 1971 and see what we have. Some of us would not want to show the face or the name - you can just smudge that out on your computer. I did it with a woman whose picture I posted.
I will pull some from 1960 to 1972 - of the man I was married to during that time - he WAS an insurance saleman. HIS mother managed a Men's store and she made sure he was up to date. I can't remember without pulling the pics. Some are packed away that I did NOT give to the children due to the last hurricane scare.
Do NOT use College album pictures as those who attended college during that era are among the privileged and not the working man. Waiters and service people are what we need. Nothing higher than a lowly insurance saleman...
Now we know that tie was at least 2 inches wide so take that into consideration. We can judge this if the FBI did not provide the width of the tie.
How? One of the guys on this thread found one of the tie clips and measured it...we should be able to judge the size of the tie from this. Would be better if the FBI provided the tie width at it's widest. Remember pictures can be deceiving when the tie is 'stand' alone which is the only pictures I have seen of the actual tie.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
I have read major portions of the thread. You do realize that if it were a Word document, it would run into the neighborhood of 1,700 pages of text, right? And that's just the current thread, and based on an estimate that was taken well over a year ago. Could be up to more than 2,500 now.
As I have told you repeatedly, I never made claim to know for sure whether or not Kenny was the hijacker. I only said he belongs on the suspect list, which I believe he does. Can I prove he was Cooper? Not a chance in hell.
"If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere..."
Marilyn Monroe
As I have told you repeatedly, I never made claim to know for sure whether or not Kenny was the hijacker. I only said he belongs on the suspect list, which I believe he does. Can I prove he was Cooper? Not a chance in hell.
"If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere..."
Marilyn Monroe
Well its time management and a credibility issue.
You have almost 2500 posts, have been here two
years plus ... and SA Carr's posts encompass only a
few months ...
Beyond that only a few people and periods of this
thread matter. You can skip EVERYTHING Jo Weber
ever posted, for starters ...
Carr's post are the first you should read, before
anything else.,
Carr's post are the only reason this thread has any
credibility, otherwise we would still be back at
where we were before this thread.
Another very large central issue Gray's book does
not even touch vis-a-vis the real DB Cooper is the
forensics Tom Kaye and his team developed ...
And there are other aspects of this case Gray has no
knowledge or information about literally, central to
this case.
Obviously,. Gray's remarks about identification are
points that need to be resolved.
Just go back and read Carr's posts here -
smokin99 0
I just looked at the news footage from that night - I saw 3 dark, narrow ties. I also notice an assortment of colors and sizes in looking at various photos from that time period of unrelated groups. Just saying - I just don't know that you gain a lot from the clothes he was wearing IF, indeed, that was his tie. Was he a poor man, or a g-man, or a insurance salesman, or did he just hate wearing ties so he just clips on the one his sister bought him for his birthday 12 years ago.
I also tend to think that if he stuck out too much, witnesses would have remarked on that?
As to witnesses, you have to remember that he was in the back of the plane, sitting to the back of most of other passengers on the plane. Got a seating chart of where they were?
If they saw him standing it was probably as they were sitting down - with him walking down the aisle after boarding.
A key point - no matter how folks might want to disregard it - is that descriptions on the scene - written in the notes and transcripts while the plane was still in the air - by the person(s) that were in the best position to know is that he was abt 6'1", 175 lbs, 50, black hair. Even if the exact height is not known, the flight attendant who was with him the most would seem to know whether he was taller or shorter than she was. And probably would have noticed if he was wearing 5 inch elevator shoes. 
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
Quote
Beyond that only a few people and periods of this
thread matter. You can skip EVERYTHING Jo Weber
ever posted, for starters ...
Georger YOU know CARR made some very very serious mistakes.
He claimed to have information he did NOT have and could not produce. He violated procedure so he is NO longer the agent of record.
You are forcing me to reveal OTHER things: Try this - Let us go into the covert / secret mode:
I was told things I am not supposed to know.
Some of these secrets are from 1962 to 1974. Secrets that involve our government and ex-cons during this time frame
These individuals could NOT and still cannot talk about what they did. Some had information so xxx there had to be government officials in a surgery room.
They were a select few and most are deceased, but they are monitored. They fall under the 40 yr rule.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
WAIT! Watch who pipes-up when this is read.Am I lieing or telling the truth?
As sutle as the suggestion I be ignored - you force me into defensive mode. I have not told everything. I was willing to let things go, but I refuse to be ridiculed in the manner under which the likes of you operate.
Do you really think I am that stupid - hell, I am an old lady I have NOTHING to loose anymore.
If you want me to chill (as I have been doing) - do NOT under-estimate me.
Do I sound like Knoss?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
I frankly do NOT believe the FBI has Cooper's DNA so HOW is the FBI so SURE of this!
The DNA tests on Duane's dna was NOT done until Nov and Dec of 2007 and some in Jan of 2008 - I have the FBI report that they accidentally left in the box they returned to me. The agent called frantically telling me they had TO have that report. DUH! more mistakes.
If that report had not been in the box - I would not have known the dates they did the DNA on. Bear in mind they picked up the DNA in 2003 -
8 yrs after he died and 7 yrs after I contacted the FBI. WHY wait SO long if they ACTUALLY had Cooper's DNA?????
1996 I call FBI
1998 FBI dismisses Duane based on PRINTS only.
2000 THey still do NOT have adequate or correct files on Weber - AGENT claimes Duane not in Army or in McNeil.
I was holding government papers to the contrary.
2003 They ask for DNA
2007/2008 they finally test the DNA.
Duane's DNA sat in that box for 5 yrs before they tested it - and I didn't think anything I sent them had his DNA on it. Glad I didn't let them have his watches and the pipe he used. What they took had been handled in a flea market and by those who came to my home. PLUS I am know as MRS CLEAN. The items had also been kept in a hot attic for several yrs.
Georger YOU made ME mad!
Perhaps I should have let the movie produce who contacted me after I went public do a contract like he wanted to do. Hey, they were ready to do the "JOB", but I wanted to find the truth and I didn't know enough.
I had all of this "stuff" I knew about Duane and the people I actually met and they were NOT small time. Bernie Barker and his big tall buddy, BT a known Chicago contact. The mafia man and his body guard. (I have his name in my files and I could draw you a picture of the way the looked - in fact someone has already done a characture of this man - in HA HA HA).
I got a picture of a man who knew Duane well - the one I knew as Ed Huran (however it was spelled)....the one who we went to help because he was sick and needed some medicine picked-up. He was feeling so bad he talked about things he asked me NOT to repeat and NOT to tell Duane - that someday Duane would tell me himself when he was ready to share that part of his life with me. I kept my word to ED.
Both of them worked for a man who had HIGH connections in the Government - all they way to the Presidents of the US and Unions.
Duane was in CO in 1968 after he left prison, the FBI went looking for him and he goes to New Orleans. I know who they spent 2 wks with in N.O.
but for some reason the FBI walked away and never looked for Weber or Collins again. He wasn't hiding - he was selling Insurance in AL, but something bad had happened in N.O. After Duane went to GA - a man involved in this dies a suspicious death.
Do I know what happened there or why anyone would want that man dead. If what I was told was true - I would have killed the man myself had I been involved.
Did the FBI verify ANY of this?
How did any man pull off the skyjacking and get away. Maybe he had "insurance". Maybe he was collecting a debt he felt was owed to him.
I never thought much planning went into the jump or had anything to do with "others". Cooper actually thought he would die. My gut tells me it was revenge and/or an attempted suicide and Tina's statement made to me on the phone "He was a very sad man" only solidified that feeling.
Then this AGENT CARR uses the statement on the FBI sight, yet the first time those words were ever made public was when Tina told me that on the phone in 2004. And when I told it on this thread - THEN Carr makes Tina's statement and the Dan Cooper Comic part of the official FBI site. GIMME a BREAK!
Carr didn't do a DAMN thing except use this thread!
PS
I did NOT make this SHIT up!
Maybe I should have signed on the dotted line, but Jo WANTED to do the right thing - hoping the FBI would resolve this.
Hell, that is why the FBI even asked for the DNA - collected in 2003 and never tested until the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008.
WHY? Because I was posting in this thread I needed to be shut-up.
The DNA tests on Duane's dna was NOT done until Nov and Dec of 2007 and some in Jan of 2008 - I have the FBI report that they accidentally left in the box they returned to me. The agent called frantically telling me they had TO have that report. DUH! more mistakes.
If that report had not been in the box - I would not have known the dates they did the DNA on. Bear in mind they picked up the DNA in 2003 -
8 yrs after he died and 7 yrs after I contacted the FBI. WHY wait SO long if they ACTUALLY had Cooper's DNA?????
1996 I call FBI
1998 FBI dismisses Duane based on PRINTS only.
2000 THey still do NOT have adequate or correct files on Weber - AGENT claimes Duane not in Army or in McNeil.
I was holding government papers to the contrary.
2003 They ask for DNA
2007/2008 they finally test the DNA.
Duane's DNA sat in that box for 5 yrs before they tested it - and I didn't think anything I sent them had his DNA on it. Glad I didn't let them have his watches and the pipe he used. What they took had been handled in a flea market and by those who came to my home. PLUS I am know as MRS CLEAN. The items had also been kept in a hot attic for several yrs.
Georger YOU made ME mad!
Perhaps I should have let the movie produce who contacted me after I went public do a contract like he wanted to do. Hey, they were ready to do the "JOB", but I wanted to find the truth and I didn't know enough.
I had all of this "stuff" I knew about Duane and the people I actually met and they were NOT small time. Bernie Barker and his big tall buddy, BT a known Chicago contact. The mafia man and his body guard. (I have his name in my files and I could draw you a picture of the way the looked - in fact someone has already done a characture of this man - in HA HA HA).
I got a picture of a man who knew Duane well - the one I knew as Ed Huran (however it was spelled)....the one who we went to help because he was sick and needed some medicine picked-up. He was feeling so bad he talked about things he asked me NOT to repeat and NOT to tell Duane - that someday Duane would tell me himself when he was ready to share that part of his life with me. I kept my word to ED.
Both of them worked for a man who had HIGH connections in the Government - all they way to the Presidents of the US and Unions.
Duane was in CO in 1968 after he left prison, the FBI went looking for him and he goes to New Orleans. I know who they spent 2 wks with in N.O.
but for some reason the FBI walked away and never looked for Weber or Collins again. He wasn't hiding - he was selling Insurance in AL, but something bad had happened in N.O. After Duane went to GA - a man involved in this dies a suspicious death.
Do I know what happened there or why anyone would want that man dead. If what I was told was true - I would have killed the man myself had I been involved.
Did the FBI verify ANY of this?
How did any man pull off the skyjacking and get away. Maybe he had "insurance". Maybe he was collecting a debt he felt was owed to him.
I never thought much planning went into the jump or had anything to do with "others". Cooper actually thought he would die. My gut tells me it was revenge and/or an attempted suicide and Tina's statement made to me on the phone "He was a very sad man" only solidified that feeling.
Then this AGENT CARR uses the statement on the FBI sight, yet the first time those words were ever made public was when Tina told me that on the phone in 2004. And when I told it on this thread - THEN Carr makes Tina's statement and the Dan Cooper Comic part of the official FBI site. GIMME a BREAK!
Carr didn't do a DAMN thing except use this thread!
PS
I did NOT make this SHIT up!
Maybe I should have signed on the dotted line, but Jo WANTED to do the right thing - hoping the FBI would resolve this.
Hell, that is why the FBI even asked for the DNA - collected in 2003 and never tested until the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008.
WHY? Because I was posting in this thread I needed to be shut-up.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 20
Jo wrote
Jo,
You say you are an old lady with "nothing to lose" yet you tease about secret govt programs involving ex cons, etc. if you have nothing to lose then spill the beans. Do an exposé. Go public. Lets see what evidence you have to substantiate these spectacular claims.
It's easy to tease and claim that national security prevents you from telling all you know. That story is repeated every night in a hundred bars by guys claiming to be spooks, spies, etc.
Hope your health is improving. I give you a hard time here, but truly wish you the best.
377
QuoteTry this - Let us go into the covert / secret mode:
I was told things I am not supposed to know.
Some of these secrets are from 1962 to 1974. Secrets that involve our government and ex-cons during this time frame
These individuals could NOT and still cannot talk about what they did. Some had information so xxx there had to be government officials in a surgery room. sutle as the suggestion I be ignored - you force me into defensive mode. I have not told everything. I was willing to let things go, but I refuse to be ridiculed in the manner under which the likes of you operate.
Jo,
You say you are an old lady with "nothing to lose" yet you tease about secret govt programs involving ex cons, etc. if you have nothing to lose then spill the beans. Do an exposé. Go public. Lets see what evidence you have to substantiate these spectacular claims.
It's easy to tease and claim that national security prevents you from telling all you know. That story is repeated every night in a hundred bars by guys claiming to be spooks, spies, etc.
Hope your health is improving. I give you a hard time here, but truly wish you the best.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
Wow, that skinny tie sure is 60’s and freakishly strange. Cooper sure would have stuck out like a person dressed all 60’s in a hip, modern, contemporary, swinging place like Portland. The hijacking did originate in Portland didn’t it? Doesn’t matter, this is the DBC thread, nothing is close to accurate.
Georger made a point about the inherent bias ever person has. Some people are so utterly blinded by their bias; they make errors which pleasure me with amusement. Like self proclaimed historians who constantly get historical items incorrect, or comments about the rarity of an item which proves quite common. Those are two examples of bias.
If only I could think of a third…… oh well, I can’t.
Georger made a point about the inherent bias ever person has. Some people are so utterly blinded by their bias; they make errors which pleasure me with amusement. Like self proclaimed historians who constantly get historical items incorrect, or comments about the rarity of an item which proves quite common. Those are two examples of bias.
If only I could think of a third…… oh well, I can’t.
Robert99 37
Quote
Jo writes:
Try this - Let us go into the covert / secret mode:
I was told things I am not supposed to know.
Some of these secrets are from 1962 to 1974. Secrets that involve our government and ex-cons during this time frame
These individuals could NOT and still cannot talk about what they did. Some had information so xxx there had to be government officials in a surgery room.
Jo,
Exactly how did you find out about this if "these individuals could NOT and still cannot talk about what they did"?
Obviously, they DID talk and you have now also talked so it is all common knowledge. Or at least part of it.
But your being "told things I am not suppose to know", even if it is true, still doesn't mean that Duane Weber was D.B. Cooper.
Robert99
377 20
Liked your skinny tie poster farf. In this case a picture was worth a thousand words.
I often wonder what is says about Cooper that he would drink Bourbon before such a dangerous jump. I jump sober and clean, always have. I have nothing against mind altering substances, its just that I dont want my mind altered or reactions dulled if I have a low altitude high speed malfunction.
Not all skydivers share my caution though. Back in the day I was on DC 3 loads where jumpers were smoking pot and even snorting coke on the way to jump altitude. Never saw anyone boozing on the way up though.
377
I often wonder what is says about Cooper that he would drink Bourbon before such a dangerous jump. I jump sober and clean, always have. I have nothing against mind altering substances, its just that I dont want my mind altered or reactions dulled if I have a low altitude high speed malfunction.
Not all skydivers share my caution though. Back in the day I was on DC 3 loads where jumpers were smoking pot and even snorting coke on the way to jump altitude. Never saw anyone boozing on the way up though.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFCWv1CUhOE
I really don’t see any value in cross checking data or doing any sanity checks on my theories. I’m too special to be biased and certainly won’t admit to it, no matter the data presented.
I don’t have time to do a search on “skinny black tie” and see what has already been covered. Nope, just a declarative statement backed with faux authority, and the races can begin now the wheels have spun off the wagon.
Yeeeee Hawwwww! (thwack!)
I really don’t see any value in cross checking data or doing any sanity checks on my theories. I’m too special to be biased and certainly won’t admit to it, no matter the data presented.
I don’t have time to do a search on “skinny black tie” and see what has already been covered. Nope, just a declarative statement backed with faux authority, and the races can begin now the wheels have spun off the wagon.
Yeeeee Hawwwww! (thwack!)
Then you have Geoff Gray, who was allowed access to the original FBI witness reports...who says it IS true.
Witness Robert Gregory pegged the hijacker at no taller than five foot nine, by the way. Quote:
From some of the others:
Tina Mucklow: Five ten to six feet.
Flo Schaffner: Six feet, no shorter.
George Labissoniere: No older than 35.
Cord Spreckel: About 50 years of age. He had a square jaw.
Bill Mitchell: He had a saggy chin.
The three stews also selected different combinations from the FBI's Facial Identification Catalog.
Stew Alice Hancock thought his hair was wavy, while Mucklow said it was straight. Both got good looks at him.
Robert Gregory thought the hijacker's hair was so shiny it could have been a dye job.
No matter how you cut the mustard, this is typical in eyewitness descriptions, which are a lot like the old story of the blind men trying to identify the elephant. Everyone's description is a bit different.
My opinion on Ckret is simple. He got some things right, and on others I am not so sure. Like when he said the FBI had changed its opinion on whether the hijacker had any decent chute experience. I disagree with the idea that the hijacker did NOT have decent experience. I believe it was more a case of a guy who had a fair amount of experience but who had not jumped in a long time. That doesn't necessarily mean it was KC...a lot of people could fit that profile.
Georger says in part:
Not physics. Common sense. I suggested that it MIGHT be difficult to estimate someone's true height within the confines of an airliner cabin, rather than seeing them out in the open or on the street. The differing descriptions of the hijacker may lend some credence to this theory.
So all the time SA Larry Carr spent going through files and 302s is trumped by book writer Geoff Cook going through files! ? Gray is the better FBI agent?
If the descriptions of the hijacker do not "differ" as
you and Gray suggest, then your new physics is full
of poop. ie., "confines of an airliner cabin, rather
than seeing them out in the open or on the street."
"Confines of an airliner cabin, rather than seeing
them out in the open or on the street." is simply
another strawman in a long list of strawmen, you
have constructed and keep offering ad nauseum.
Your logic is biased ie. flawed.
And not least: if your physics is utter baloney and
madeup strawman, then your prior socalled
recitations are made up also -
At the very least we have a very serious difference
between Carr and other agents vs. Gray/you.
And we know for a fact Gray got science team facts
totally wrong!
Gray is not infallable.
And your sole source is some book written by a
Geoff Gray, so you have no firsthand knowledge of
anything in this!
b'rashit bara elohiym v'et hashmayim v'haaretz.
from the Torah above. Tell us what it says since you
like "translating" from books you use as hooks...