Farflung 0
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Hominid 0
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I find it interesting how many writers take the spoken word out of context.
It's been one of the curses of the case. The media has from the start produced garbage about the case. I think it's been basically for two reasons: (1)The "journalist" understood practically nothing he read or was told by someone who actually knew something, and; (2)The stress was always on the "Robin Hood" romantic adventure angle.
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This is all "writer wording". They want to make their story stand out and to be read. What did anyone expect the interviewer or publisher to say? For ex: At one point an officlal in a trench coat walked up to the door of the plane. BORING!
Yeah. Part of the curse. Interest is entertainment rather than fact reporting.
Hominid 0
QuoteBTW, a meteorologist, Sean Potter, did a piece in
a publication named Weatherwise, not too long ago.
Mildly interesting article. One of the things about it that is interesting to me is that it illustrates how even an "expert" can screw up by making snap judgements. And, of course, it becomes part of the authoratative record.
He said the low was beginning to move onshore on the morning of the 24th. Truth is the low was in virtually the identical position the next morning. The condition creating the low there still existed there.
He said the outside air temperature was -7°C. As Robert99 has said (and I have verified) it was close to -12°C.
He basically found info about the weather rather than doing an analysis of it.
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Is it possible that some people confused the
day of the hijacking with what followed beginning the
26th? Dona Elliot at Ariel specifically?
I think it very likely. It would be easy for a person even just a few weeks after the fact to remember the weather a day or two after and think he/she was remembering the weather on that night. This is why some kind of documentation produced quickly after the event is important to support a claim of when the event occured. And, the weather did get a bit cooler on the 25th. She would only have to be off by one day.
Hominid 0
QuoteI took a copy of surface chart .... Then estimated isobars for 8pm on jump night.
Quote
I fixed the bottom part of the 8pm chart a bit. Then made one for 9pm using the data from the 9pm page Georger posted, plus a little from Weather Underground. Both have estimated isobars, but based on actual atmospheric pressure observations at the respective times (just like meteorologists do).
Then I made an estimate chart for 8:30 by interpolating isobar positions shown on the other two charts. This would not be quite as accurate as the 8pm and 9pm charts. So the condition at 8:15 would be midway between the 8pm chart and the estimated 8:30 chart.
I put some arrows on some places of the 8:30 chart to indicate trend direction. Basically indicate that the 1016 isobar was straightening out and the 1017 isobar was moving northward around Pendleton (east of Portland).
Wayyyy! Over my Head, plus I am very very tired tonight. Has been a long day.
Do not know how much longer I will be hanging in, NOT much I can offer.
Do not forget this - the last 2 airports he pointed out as we heacded toward Tahoe.
Redmond: Again the statement
"we used to fly in and out of there". Then he spoke about a place the guys used to eat at in Prineville. He commented on some Canyons, but what he said is lost to me. This was the point when I asked about what he did that required his flying in and out of the airports. His answer was evasive and he change the subject and I let it go.
What I can remember of what he said - unless it was noted in my statements to other individuals back in 1996 and 1997 and 1998----no one would believe!
All I can hope for is that it is in some of my statements and tapes I made prior to going public and before I got a computer in 2000 and before I knew much about Cooper or theories. All I had was what he told me and what some friends found for me about some things.
On the trip to Seattle and then to Tahoe - I learned things about my husband and yet I knew nothing. I just did NOT pry into his past other than what he volunteered. When ever the conversations in our marriage drifted to the past - Duane revealed little of his past during those first 12 yr - other than this trip. In 1990 - I learned about Jefferson because of his trying to use the John Collins ID. He did try to talk about his past after he settled down with the machine that 1st yr then he went into - the usual mode until the last few wks of his life in 1995
1990 to 1995 - Things on TV such as a big forests fires and then about a man being killed and french doors and shadows and a man in fatigues standing with legs apart and a rifle across his chest...there was a building behind him (Duane told me he knew this man). The man looked like a man I met in N.Orleans in 1979 or 1980.
Another guy whose name I have always tried to remember lived in New Orleans - muscular and decent build. but not particularly masculine. I keep thinking Dale. Had a baby face, but he was nice - not the prison type. (He was younger than Duane and perhaps even young than myself - Duane was 17 yrs older than myself). He knew Duane from yrs past, but did NOT discuss that past with me (our conversation was brief - perhaps 5 minutes). He was at the same place as the "military" man and the other man I now know to be Barker.
Do not know how much longer I will be hanging in, NOT much I can offer.
Do not forget this - the last 2 airports he pointed out as we heacded toward Tahoe.
Redmond: Again the statement
"we used to fly in and out of there". Then he spoke about a place the guys used to eat at in Prineville. He commented on some Canyons, but what he said is lost to me. This was the point when I asked about what he did that required his flying in and out of the airports. His answer was evasive and he change the subject and I let it go.
What I can remember of what he said - unless it was noted in my statements to other individuals back in 1996 and 1997 and 1998----no one would believe!
All I can hope for is that it is in some of my statements and tapes I made prior to going public and before I got a computer in 2000 and before I knew much about Cooper or theories. All I had was what he told me and what some friends found for me about some things.
On the trip to Seattle and then to Tahoe - I learned things about my husband and yet I knew nothing. I just did NOT pry into his past other than what he volunteered. When ever the conversations in our marriage drifted to the past - Duane revealed little of his past during those first 12 yr - other than this trip. In 1990 - I learned about Jefferson because of his trying to use the John Collins ID. He did try to talk about his past after he settled down with the machine that 1st yr then he went into - the usual mode until the last few wks of his life in 1995
1990 to 1995 - Things on TV such as a big forests fires and then about a man being killed and french doors and shadows and a man in fatigues standing with legs apart and a rifle across his chest...there was a building behind him (Duane told me he knew this man). The man looked like a man I met in N.Orleans in 1979 or 1980.
Another guy whose name I have always tried to remember lived in New Orleans - muscular and decent build. but not particularly masculine. I keep thinking Dale. Had a baby face, but he was nice - not the prison type. (He was younger than Duane and perhaps even young than myself - Duane was 17 yrs older than myself). He knew Duane from yrs past, but did NOT discuss that past with me (our conversation was brief - perhaps 5 minutes). He was at the same place as the "military" man and the other man I now know to be Barker.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Duane mentioned McDermitt - I am foggy on this area. I believe he mentioned an airport, but uncertain at this late date.
What I find strange about the places Duane mentions - might just be common to the area. Indian Reservations and John Day.
What I find strange about the places Duane mentions - might just be common to the area. Indian Reservations and John Day.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Hominid 0
QuoteDuane mentioned McDermitt - I am foggy on this area.
Jo,
Does this mean you'd like to talk about weather?
QuoteQuoteDuane mentioned McDermitt - I am foggy on this area.
Jo,
Does this mean you'd like to talk about weather?
Had forgot to turn the computer off and found your post. I had my laugh for the day. Thank You!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Hominid 0
There are a few relationships between the weather data Georger posted and the communication transcripts. Nothing earthshaking, but do confirm somewhat the mutual agreement of the information from the two sources.
First, something really insignificant. Each little logged string of communications begins with the date in Greenwich, England. Immediately after this, on the same line, are two symbols of the types used in the weather messages. The first is the circle with the line down through its center. The "scattered" cloud coverage symbol. The next is the down-pointing arrow that was supposedly used for approximate wind direction info.
Next, a message that has seemed totally unrelated to the hijacking case gives some high altitude weather info. This 7:34 message: 22 ONEILL 32/370 ETA MSP 0420 -60 WINDS 305 SLASH 85. I assume the 370 is the flight level. What would the "32" be? The flight thought it was 46 minutes out of Minneapolis-St.Paul. Anyway, -60°C, wind from 305° at 85kt. The first winds aloft forecast of those Georger posted gives, for MSP at 39K', 82kt from 290°, -55°C. For 34K' it gives 108kt from 290°, -53°C. Interpolating between 82kt and 108kt would give about 92kt for 37K'. The winds aloft forecast is close to the message report as far a wind direction, but only in the general "ballpark" where speed and temperature are concerned.
At 7:46 the comm transcript had an exchange about possible alternate landing points. PDX, Red Bluff, and Medford. Seattle traffic control replied to NWA flight ops "It's fog and haze." But the transcript didn't state which of the airports this applied to. The 8pm report Georger posted indicates fog and haze only for Red Bluff (ground fog, haze and smoke; .4 covered by fog). Apparently, the decision that they were talking about Red Bluff didn't get into the comm transcript.
At 8:10 the transcript has flight ops saying Reno has 25T, overcast, 12mi visibility, north wind of 15kt, gusty. The 8pm message report says 12mi visibility, 13kt wind from 310° (apx NW). Nothing about "gusty." The cloud coverage info is illegible. But, overall, pretty close to agreement. The 7pm METAR from Weather Underground indicates north wind like the transcript says.
First, something really insignificant. Each little logged string of communications begins with the date in Greenwich, England. Immediately after this, on the same line, are two symbols of the types used in the weather messages. The first is the circle with the line down through its center. The "scattered" cloud coverage symbol. The next is the down-pointing arrow that was supposedly used for approximate wind direction info.
Next, a message that has seemed totally unrelated to the hijacking case gives some high altitude weather info. This 7:34 message: 22 ONEILL 32/370 ETA MSP 0420 -60 WINDS 305 SLASH 85. I assume the 370 is the flight level. What would the "32" be? The flight thought it was 46 minutes out of Minneapolis-St.Paul. Anyway, -60°C, wind from 305° at 85kt. The first winds aloft forecast of those Georger posted gives, for MSP at 39K', 82kt from 290°, -55°C. For 34K' it gives 108kt from 290°, -53°C. Interpolating between 82kt and 108kt would give about 92kt for 37K'. The winds aloft forecast is close to the message report as far a wind direction, but only in the general "ballpark" where speed and temperature are concerned.
At 7:46 the comm transcript had an exchange about possible alternate landing points. PDX, Red Bluff, and Medford. Seattle traffic control replied to NWA flight ops "It's fog and haze." But the transcript didn't state which of the airports this applied to. The 8pm report Georger posted indicates fog and haze only for Red Bluff (ground fog, haze and smoke; .4 covered by fog). Apparently, the decision that they were talking about Red Bluff didn't get into the comm transcript.
At 8:10 the transcript has flight ops saying Reno has 25T, overcast, 12mi visibility, north wind of 15kt, gusty. The 8pm message report says 12mi visibility, 13kt wind from 310° (apx NW). Nothing about "gusty." The cloud coverage info is illegible. But, overall, pretty close to agreement. The 7pm METAR from Weather Underground indicates north wind like the transcript says.
What names? John Day projects are all over the OR and WA area.
McDermitt is the name of a place.
This is about finding what Duane's past was in WA and OR and OH and ID and CA.
McDermitt is the name of a place.
This is about finding what Duane's past was in WA and OR and OH and ID and CA.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert99 37
QuoteNext, a message that has seemed totally unrelated to the hijacking case gives some high altitude weather info. This 7:34 message: 22 ONEILL 32/370 ETA MSP 0420 -60 WINDS 305 SLASH 85. I assume the 370 is the flight level. What would the "32" be? The flight thought it was 46 minutes out of Minneapolis-St.Paul. Anyway, -60°C, wind from 305° at 85kt.
Hominid, You are correct that this message is not related to the hijacking. Note that it was sent one minute after the previous message which was related to the hijacked airliner. And it was probably included here by mistake.
Also note that the these separate messages start with the GMT date (which was 11/25 at that time) and that the GMT time is given on the bottom line of each message along with the PST time which is 8 hours BEHIND the GMT time. The two sets of initials before and after the GMT time probably are an identification of the person who typed them into the NWA teletype net and the specific segment of the teletype net.
My guess is that the message in question is a simple position report from a NWA flight to the MSP Operations office. Here is my "translation":
"NWA flight number 22, over O'Neill (which would be a VORTAC or other navigational fix), at 32 (minutes after the hour and two minutes before this message was sent), at flight level 370 (37,000 feet), estimated time of arrival at MSP 0420 GMT (48 minutes after passing over O'Neill). Temperature -60 degrees Centigrade, winds from 305 degrees (true) at 85 knots."
Further to the above, the O'Neill VORTAC is located on the airport at O'Neill, Nebraska about 325 statute miles from Minneapolis-St. Paul. So the airliner was probably getting a hefty tailwind component. And the 0420 GMT time would be the gate time of about 10:20 PM CST on November 24th.
Although I can't find the sources at this particular moment, while on the ground in Seattle, the crew of NWA 305 was informed that the only significant weather they might encounter was some haze at 10,000 feet somewhere south of Portland (but still in Oregon). The FBI notes includes an entry that the airliner had to use its anti-icing equipment when it reached that area.
BobKnoss 0
Quote
........... The FBI notes includes an entry that the airliner had to use its anti-icing equipment when it reached that area.
And the seas rose for forty days and forty nights, and ice formed on the oceans, and birds dropped from the skies. And Cooper fell to an icy death in the deep dark forest 15 miles east of the real drop.... Oooops! That is a secret. Forget that! The ice thing is good, use that. Write it down so we don't forget. Everybody OK with that? Really cold! Blizzard conditions. Gotcha!
QuoteQuote
........... The FBI notes includes an entry that the airliner had to use its anti-icing equipment when it reached that area.
And the seas rose for forty days and forty nights, and ice formed on the oceans, and birds dropped from the skies. And Cooper fell to an icy death in the deep dark forest 15 miles east of the real drop.... Oooops! That is a secret. Forget that! The ice thing is good, use that. Write it down so we don't forget. Everybody OK with that? Really cold! Blizzard conditions. Gotcha!
It is important for the exit. Icing at Altitude not only effects the plane but it will effect "Cooper" on his exit.
Would the stairs ice up? (leading to a footing issue and thuds making your claim he slipped viable)
Will he have numb hands from a freefall? (making it difficult to deploy his parachute, since he did make a bad choice in designs to use)
Will he have numbness and pain on his exposed skin? (leading to having a hard time focusing and concentrating on his task)
The thin clothing layer of a suit would be of little use in this situation. So any dampness coupled to the icing conditions will lead to hypothermia quickly. We could ask him how it all went, but as he isn't alive, we can't.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
1969912 0
Maybe Cooper himself iced up, froze solid, and upon impact shattered into a billion pieces.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
Robert99 37
QuoteMaybe Cooper himself iced up, froze solid, and upon impact shattered into a billion pieces.
At this point, that is a viable theory. At the instant that Cooper hit the full air stream, the wind chill factor would be 35-40 degrees below zero (F and C are about the same thing in that range).
1969912 0
QuoteQuoteMaybe Cooper himself iced up, froze solid, and upon impact shattered into a billion pieces.
At this point, that is a viable theory. At the instant that Cooper hit the full air stream, the wind chill factor would be 35-40 degrees below zero (F and C are about the same thing in that range).
I was just kidding.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
Hominid 0
Thanks Robert. Of the station codes in the winds aloft report I haven't been able to read any that is for a place close to O'Neill. (There are some that seem legible although I haven't found identification of the locations.) Other than MSP, Aberdeen is the only place remotely "near." Interpolating to 37K' for Aberdeen gives 89kt from 280°. Both this and what I got for MSP are "in the ballpark" except for temp. For both stations the forecast wind would be basically a tailwind from O'Neill to MSP, and about 90kt.
I don't think you can find the source. I've found nothing about it while the plane was at SEA. The message I mentioned about fog and haze was while the flight was still at 7K', and it was about alternate landing sites (not 10K'). I agree that what you call the "FBI notes" does refer to the icing in the Medford area.
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"NWA flight number 22, over O'Neill (which would be a VORTAC or other navigational fix), at 32 (minutes after the hour and two minutes before this message was sent), at flight level 370 (37,000 feet), estimated time of arrival at MSP 0420 GMT (48 minutes after passing over O'Neill). Temperature -60 degrees Centigrade, winds from 305 degrees (true) at 85 knots."
Further to the above, the O'Neill VORTAC is located on the airport at O'Neill, Nebraska about 325 statute miles from Minneapolis-St. Paul. So the airliner was probably getting a hefty tailwind component.
I don't think you can find the source. I've found nothing about it while the plane was at SEA. The message I mentioned about fog and haze was while the flight was still at 7K', and it was about alternate landing sites (not 10K'). I agree that what you call the "FBI notes" does refer to the icing in the Medford area.
Quote
Although I can't find the sources at this particular moment, while on the ground in Seattle, the crew of NWA 305 was informed that the only significant weather they might encounter was some haze at 10,000 feet somewhere south of Portland (but still in Oregon). The FBI notes includes an entry that the airliner had to use its anti-icing equipment when it reached that area.
Orange1 0
Quote
Will he have numb hands from a freefall? (making it difficult to deploy his parachute, since he did make a bad choice in designs to use)
Matt
That's a good point. I remember a winter jump (and remember our winters are much milder than in the Northwest) where our camerman had lost his gloves, and his fingers froze stuck to the side of the plane as he exited! IIRC we were jumping from 11K that day. He pulled, obviously, but he didn't have to pull right out the plane or deal with a potentially hard pull. Needless to say he found a pair of gloves to borrow for the rest of the day.
Then again.... Cooper could have had gloves in his mysterious paper bag (and goggles and alti if he wasn't planning to pull right off the step).
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Hominid 0
Guys,
There is no doubt about whether or not there was icing. It would not be out of the ordinary. No need for the conspirators to fake the info. It would have nothing to do with getting the stairs down, or with Coop jumping, because the icing occured near Medford (southern) Oregon--long after the stairs were deployed and presubably long after Coop jumped.
PLEASE don't get the world thinking Coop musta jumped in icing conditions just 'cause there was some somewhere along the route.
Robert99,
Don't feel bad about mentioning icing. It's not your fault what some people will make of something. Who woulda believed that mere mention of icing far away and much later would have morphed into deploying the stairs and jumping into an ice storm?
L'Homme
georger 197
QuoteGuys,
There is no doubt about whether or not there was icing. It would not be out of the ordinary. No need for the conspirators to fake the info. It would have nothing to do with getting the stairs down, or with Coop jumping, because the icing occured near Medford (southern) Oregon--long after the stairs were deployed and presubably long after Coop jumped.
PLEASE don't get the world thinking Coop musta jumped in icing conditions just 'cause there was some somewhere along the route.
Robert99,
Don't feel bad about mentioning icing. It's not your fault what some people will make of something. Who woulda believed that mere mention of icing far away and much later would have morphed into deploying the stairs and jumping into an ice storm?
L'Homme
Icing was mentioned as a contributing factor long
ago ....... and passed through the human filter to
come to kitchen tables .... processed by "experts".
You are trying to control what canot be controled,
in any event.
Guru and others pointed out long ago that the
period he passed through 'freezing' conditions was
brief, perhaps critical, but still brief. But, it is part
of the old FBI scenario for him not surviving.
What else is missing? This is old news -
Here’s another recap of what the Capn’ meant:
He was four thousand feet higher and four minutes behind Flight 305 and presumably had the aircraft configured for cruise (gear up, flaps up, straight and level, one G, blah, blah boring blah).
Then Bohan notices something that just isn’t quite right…. hmmm…. he thinks to himself as he watches the DME count down and the seconds pass by….. that’s peculiar…. then he orders the FO to calculate winds. The FO does a time hack while fishing for his Whiz Wheel and completes the task slower than Bohan, because he is just a Co-pilot and a little scared too. He nervously announces winds of 80 knots which are well above the highest forecast by a factor of two, then swallows hard waiting for Bohan’s response.
Jesus on a half shell, Bohan announces that’s more than double forecasted. Let’s do absolutely nothing and go land on a wet, storm whipped runway in Portland, then go watch a gladiator movie together, OK? The FO nervously agrees to everything and upon retirement goes into hiding never speaking of ‘that night’. Meanwhile……..
Flight 305 has the gear dropped, flaps at 15 degrees and holding an airspeed of 170 to 180 knots, indicated. While flying through the same wind pattern which is approaching 45 percent of Flight 305’s airspeed (80 knot wind, 180 airspeed) the crew manages to detect nothing, absolutely nothing in that configuration. Umm…. yeah, just keeps gettin’ better and better with every re-write.
I think that Bohan’s flight had some of those Continental Stewardesses, you know, the ones who really move their tail for you (to make your every wish come true)….. yeah… this is getting good now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGSaE2QOd00
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