DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

Just checked the forum Geoger . sorry Try the call tonite if you want. Jerry

[377 20]

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Stunts aside, skydivers wouldn't jump with ties.

Darn right. And when it gets really hot other items of clothing become optional. Ask anyone who was skydiving with those young ladies from Holland at WFFC 2000. Truly shocking. Georger would have turned his head away. I couldn't, safety you know. Always maintain eye contact with other jumpers.

I am REALLY looking forward to the National Geo. special. I don't have broadcast TV. Raised my kids without it, just tapes and DVDs. I will have to find a friend with cable who wants to watch it with me.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Unfortunatly for Jo. Duane Webber was not Cooper Jo Knows this so please let her have her fantisies. She does realize the opposition she is up against and she also Knows that there is no way her stories can be verified. Now that leaves us with one of two choices . Either to Ignore her or to check Every story she tell's .This has been done more than once. When Jo comes up with a new story or a new Idea I always check it out regardless of how far fetched it may seem. So if Jo in her own way can help solve this case So Be It! I personally will not hold my Breath. Untill she comes to terms and helps this Investigation instead of leading some in a direction that is strange. Still I will always check out new leads. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Orange one Your fantastic your comments are perfect. No wonder your a great mom and Skydiver . Jerry

[BruceSmith 3]

After reading Billy Waugh's book, it is my understanding that SOG teams HALO jumped with T-10 parachutes.

Further, I understand they were common military chutes for the time, and reliable.

Thus, my question: In what way were T-10 similar to NB-8s?

If DB Cooper was a SOG vet, would he have preferred an NB 8 over a paracommander?

Anyone?

[snowmman 3]

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After reading Billy Waugh's book, it is my understanding that SOG teams HALO jumped with T-10 parachutes.

they jumped with modified t-10 canopies. 7 gore TU. (hmm..maybe I should find a pic of that mod???)
(edit) I don't think we have detail on the rig used with those canopies? Other than the pics I posted of the guys rigged up before the HALO jump.

We've covered the parachute issue to death.
We didn't get perfect information from Ckret, and there's some debate about a 28' canopy fitting well in the NB-8.

But I think we're saying the NB-8 had a 28' unmodified C-9 canopy, white.
I didn't go back in the thread, but that's my recollection. Others?

There is a lot to read if you want to read about the testing that was done stateside for HALO, and what REAL HALO guys stateside were doing in that time frame (altitude records, oxygen etc.)

There was a good site I ran into with some nice b/w pics from the 60s of the teams at Fort Bragg.

The important thing to remember: While Waugh did a HALO jump in Vietnam, he didn't come thru the program in Fort Bragg as a HALO guy..the Vietnam guys straight up acknowledged they weren't the best HALO guys in the world at that time.

Comments?



Now it's fair to ask: what experience did Waugh have at the time of his HALO jump and what training and jumps had he done? There's some info on that in his bio, and in the HALO brief already published.

Brucie: you remember all the stuff Ckret posted about how when they tried to explain things to Cooper, he rejoined a couple of times "I know" or something to that effect, right?

(edit) And Brucie, the HALO pdf file I posted has much better detail on all the Vietnam HALO jumps than Waughs book. Waugh's book just confirms it.

(edit) I still think the rip handle mod was called a "right hand outboard pull" based on what Ckret posted, although no jumper here wants to engage in that conversation, I think because we don't have jumpers from the '60s posting here!

Back in the '60s when I was jumping out of trees, I got the directions for my mod from here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA434&lpg=PA434&dq=%22right+hand+outboard+pull%22&source=bl&ots=n_qpwo8K-k&sig=za3giz9sQwhiC-DSnarSjCe4LsE&hl=en&ei=ORNlSoSXKYmCswPXh8XeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

(i've posted this before)

[snowmman 3]

I read here that Mike Pelkey and Brian Schubert who first jumped El Cap, did it in 1966 with TU-7 mod on a 28' canopy....

http://www.johnnyutah.com/mikepelkey.html

"We were both jumping 28-foot TU-7 mains and 24-foot reserves. The fancy parachute, Paracommander, designed especially for sport jumping, had been around for a couple of years but neither of us had one. We both also wore full jump suits, paratrooper boots, and helmets."

(edit) or here. Plus pic attached
http://www.baseclimb.com/sports/basejumping

[snowmman 3]

You're missing the story.

Obviously the FBI must have investigated Waugh.

It appears that it may be true that details of the Vietnam HALOs weren't declassified until 1995. It would be good if anyone reading has first hand knowledge of that and when the stories started being told.

The story here that should be written is "When did the FBI investigate Waugh, and why did they clear him?"

Right?

I mean, nothing else would make sense, like "he was never investigated" or something like that.

[snowmman 3]

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Orange one Your fantastic your comments are perfect. No wonder your a great mom and Skydiver . Jerry

Okay, I can't let Jerry's comments about moms go by any more.
Now I'm sure Jerry cares about moms a lot.

But I know a bunch of women that are moms.
And if they were posting in a forum on DB Cooper, the last thing that they would take as a compliment, in that context, would be "and it's obvious you're a great mom"..especially if they themselves rarely bring it into the conversation.

I mean, I'm sure Orange1 is a great mom, but WTF does that have to do with anything here?

Am I just missing something here? Orange1 do you have any reaction when Jerry says that your momness means something core about you?

straighten me out. I may be clueless.

[Erroll 49]

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... but WTF does that have to do with anything here?...

About as much as 90% of your own posts.

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I may be clueless.

[snowmman 3]

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... but WTF does that have to do with anything here?...

About as much as 90% of your own posts.

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I may be clueless.

Erroll. Grab some skill.
100% of my posts are worthless.
Although if I'm a troll, you proved otherwise. Any reply is a success for me, loss for you..
Who's more f*ed? me, or you by responding?

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman All I have to say is you have a good day Jerry

[377 20]

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(edit) I still think the rip handle mod was called a "right hand outboard pull" based on what Ckret posted, although no jumper here wants to engage in that conversation, I think because we don't have jumpers from the '60s posting here!

I've been jumping since 68, but I was not very gear savvy back then. Had I been savvy, I would never have jumped the gutter gear I did.

Outboard pull goes against all the safety stuff I was taught: minimize potential snag points, protect ripcord handles, etc.

Nitro and Guru can better answer old gear Qs. Probably Airtwardo too.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman All I have to say is you have a good day Jerry

Fair enough. Thanks. I'd offer the same, but I don't think you'd value it from me. But it's there.

[377 20]

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Obviously the FBI must have investigated Waugh.

I'd like to think they did investigate Billy, but you'd be astounded at things that are missed by the FBI Snow, really. Hindsight is 20-20 of course, but I have seen some amazing things missed in important cases. To be fair, the clues might not have been so obvious when masked by the noise of thousands of irrelevant bits of info.

It wouldn't be impossible for the FBI to have missed Billy.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman yes I do I value your comments and your intelgence is suppurb How ever sometimes I question your reasoning techniques. Still I Injoy the Battle. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Since 377 replied, maybe it's worth posting the detail in case people don't follow links. I'm really curious if this was what Earl Cossey had done to the rig.

I'll post the text and photos from page 434 of (one of)Poynter's book(s).
I think if you scroll (at the link), on page 436- it has instructions and closeups for making the mod.

Note I'm not sure if later editions of this book, or similar books, dropped the mention of this mod. This was there in 1984.

http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA434&lpg=PA434
The Parachute Manual: A Technical Treatise on Aerodynamic Decelerators by Dan Poynter (Paperback - May 1984)
page 434

The ripcord is mounted on the left inboard side on emergency parachutes to protect the handle, assuring against accidental activation. While this may be a problem to the pilot, it is not to the sport jumper who is more conscious of, and familiar with, his parachute.

The positioning of the ripcord may be a little thing to the experienced jumper but it is an important one to the novice. Many students begin to roll or pitch head down on the pull and this is not only discouraging, it is a terrifying experience. The scared student is now held back and made to repeat the experience over and over again until he either masters the problem or quits. Disappointed in his progression and scared of the activity, he often leaves.

The advantages of the outboard pull are many:

Stable Pull

With the outboard pull, the jumper has less of a tendency to pitch head down since he reduces his upper body drag less and does so for a shorter period of time, i.e. with the cross chest pull, he must pull his upper control surfaces (arms) in further (across his chest) and the pull takes longer since his arms must travel further. The novice's tendency to plunge head down during the pull often increases tension and fear which results in a poorly controlled "snatch" at the ripcord. This only heightens his problems as it increases his fear of the pull.

With the right hand arrangement, there is less tendency to roll toward the pull. The novice is in a new element and his choices with the cross chest pull are limted, with both being unsatisfactory. If he places his left arm over his head (to increase upper body drag and, therefore, lessen the forward pitch) while reaching for the ripcord with his right hand, he loses lateral stability, and may roll to one side. If he comes in with a two handed pull, he not only sacrifices lateral stability, he plunges head down as well.

Even after the best training, a student may leave one arm out as he reaches for his ripcord. With the cross chest pull, this almost certainly results in a barrel roll, while with the outboard pull, chances are, he will only waver somewhat. The head down plunge is often countered by the experienced jumper by bending his legs at the knees. Few students are even aware of their leg positioning: they don't know if their legs are bent, straight, together or apart because they can neither feel nor see them.

As every parachutist knows, instability is a major contribution to malfunctions. But it may not be too clear as to just why. Recent high speed photo coverage of some dummy drops revealed some interesting deployment sequences. The dummy tumbled as it was pushed from the door of a Cessna 180. The container opened and the revolving dummy "launched" the still folded, sleeved canopy into the air. The lines completely unstowed and the locking flap opened BEFORE the sleeve even unfolded. The frame by frame study revealed how simply the assembly might take a hitch upon itself or the canopy might emerge into the airstream in an unusual manner. Needless to say, a stable position leads to orderly deployment which increases reliability. And who should need to have his chances increased more than the student?

The outboard mounted ripcord lends itself to an easier pull because the jumper is able to exert more leverage PUSHING AWAY from the shoulder than PULLING ACROSS the chest.

Should a two hand pull be required with the right hand outboard pull (not as likely as with the cross pull), the difficulty is not increased since the ripcord is only 1 3/4" farther from body center.

(3 pics from page 434. note rh pull3 is the normal cross pull, not the mod)

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman yes I do I value your comments and your intelgence is suppurb How ever sometimes I question your reasoning techniques. Still I Injoy the Battle. Jerry

Hi Jerry.
If you want to question my reasoning techniques, I can't answer unless you spell out the question. i.e. what reasoning technique are you questioning? Or do you not care about a response? Either is ok.

[JerryThomas 0]

Perfect response. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Perfect response. Jerry

? We're communicating? Are you saying my response proves your comment about reasoning, somehow?

[JerryThomas 0]

Could be. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Could be. Jerry

To be honest with everyone, and myself: I really am just here because I'm curious about this Cooper thing, and 377 was a nice guy. I went thru the list before, and I know I don't really give a damn about anyone, and rightly so, no one should about me.

I managed to stay away for a couple months there on my own, and was proud of myself.

I wish quade would just ban me and get it over with. What do I have to do? can't I just write something like "this = 1000 insults".

I do think it's funny how much you guys kiss Quade's butt.
I have this image of skydivers as people who kiss a lot of butt. Really. But DZ.com is not skydiving. It can't be.

[377 20]

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Since 377 replied, maybe it's worth posting the detail in case people don't follow links. I'm really curious if this was what Earl Cossey had done to the rig.

Poynter makes outboard pull sound like a mod primarily done for student stability. I never saw one. Our DZ jumpmasters were fanatical about having you protect your ripcord handles in the plane. An outboard pull would have been viewed skeptically by them since it is so much more easily snagged than the traditional inboard pull.

The mod takes a bit of rigging work. Why would Cossey do the mod on a pilots rig? Various theories have been put forward, not sure if they make sense.

If Cooper were familiar with military bailout rigs and became disoriented after exit, he might never find an outboard ripcord. You'd be looking/feeling/grasping in all the wrong places.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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I do think it's funny how much you guys kiss Quade's butt.

Quade doesn't get paid. Quade gets the wrath of many jumpers for not shutting down this forum. Quade is not a DB Cooper fanatic, so there is little self interest in preserving the forum, yet he moderates it which takes time and effort.

What's wrong with thanking him? Can Quade be thanked or is the act of thanking and kissing butt inextricably intertwined as you see it?

Skydivers kiss less authority butt than most people do. They mixed it up with the cops pretty good in Quincy which lead to the WFFC's move to Rantoul. I saw a few giving major attitude to the FAA Flight Standards inspectors at several WFFC events.

Do you ever kiss butt Snow? If so, whose? We the accused now ask the inquisitor to confess his sins.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[chutebuilder 0]

"looking and grasping in all the wrong places"..lets not forget,too,it was dark and ol Coop wouldnt have even been able to see the ripcord thus adding to any terror/panic that would ensue during the hunt for the ripcord.