DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Actually I am surprised the USAF revealed that the 727 intercept by ther F 106s failed.

OK, I must have missed something important here.

I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the
"document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I
was asleep and missed it -

Where is this document. ???

there is none.
We don't know how far the F-106's flew.
They could have turned back before Cooper even jumped.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Emphasis mine

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They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots {155.4 mph} and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact.

That just didn’t sound right to me for an aircraft designed to be used as a trainer and “Proficiency Logger” for Command Staff. So I did some quick research on the various versions of the T-33.

From a recent accident account in the AAIB Bulletin: 12/2007

ACCIDENT
Aircraft Type and Registration: Lockheed T-33 Silver Star Mk 3, G-TBRD
For the accident flight, when the weather was warmer and the TOW had increased to 14,161 lb, the TODR was calculated to be 1,326 m. At that weight, the stall speed, with takeoff flaps selected and the landing gear extended, was 101.5 kts. {116.8 mph}

From http://www.ccminc.com/vintage/acinfo.html
VINTAGE THUNDERBIRD
Aircraft Information
Lockheed T-33A "Thunderbird"
Year Built: 1958 S/N: 58-665
Top Speed: 600 mph
Pattern Speed: 300 mph
Stall Speed: 115 mph [(Aprox. 100 kts) I assume this is “clean” based on the info above]
Gross Wt.: 15,300 lb
Fuel Flow (FL300): 200 gph
Crew: 2

More at:
http://www.ccminc.com/vintage/history.html

This is the stuff that just drives me crazy! snowmman is quoting from a book which was sold as “non-fiction.” What reason would he (or anyone else) have for not believing that the account is accurate. My personal conversation with Himmelsbach indicates that he believes it to be “true” (accurate?). Yet, common sense dictates that the account, as stated, probably isn’t “true” (accurate).

Any T-33/P-80 jockeys out there want to help us out here?

Sluggo_Monster

Late edit after reading interim posts:
snowmman, get your head out of your ass. The T-33 asked permission to go above 305. I have no idea why ATC would reply the way they did, unless it was tacit permission. ATC was telling the T-33 that 305 could not exceed 10,000 MSL (which is the altitude dictated by the hijacker). I guarantee you if Cooper had told them to go to 12,000 they would have and ATC would not object based on previous information. If he had asked for 14,000 MSL, there might have been a problem because the were unpressurized and the mask would have deployed.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 197]

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Actually I am surprised the USAF revealed that the 727 intercept by ther F 106s failed.

OK, I must have missed something important here.

I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the
"document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I
was asleep and missed it -

Where is this document. ???

there is none.

exactly.
so 377 is just blowing smoke rings, again, and
siting his "personal opinion" as fact!

we do have the account of the 106's maneuvering
to stay behind 305, and their seeing 305's light
flashed ....... but the intercept failed according to
377 with nothing to suggest that.

I think I have it now.

[snowmman 3]

Pete Karculias was an electronic technician/computer repairman for the Q-7 back in 1967-1969. He was stationed at McChord AFB, WA.

These are from the McChord SAGE!

I've attached his pic of an Op Console, and two radar images from the screen apparently. THE LAST ONE IS GREAT..I think you can see the sectors..and you can see all the radar reflections? Doesn't it look like it reaches past Portland?

more pics at the url
scroll down on this page to see the pics (the 25th is McChord). Click on the pics to get higher resolution versions.

http://www.smecc.org/sage_a_n_fsq-7.htm

"These are personal photos of the 25th Air Division HQ SAGE system. They were taken in the spring of 1969 in the evening. I could not photograph the operators on duty as it would have interfered with their duties. Also, some areas were off limits due to security (ECM room, e.g.)."

He describes each picture. This was interesting:

"11. Its_Crashed.jpg
This is for fun. We kept a Polaroid camera in the operator's room to snapshot the console if a computer crahsed. We could reboot and analyze the status later. I am on the right. The computer has just crashed with a memory parity error."

(edit) His description of the two SID photos gives detail on the range:
"20 SID_Close.jpg
Close-up of a Situation Display (SD) console. You can see the outline of Washington, Vancouver Island and British Columbia, Canada to the North. The 25th Air Division covered all this territory. Each Direction Center (DC) overlapped coverage with the adjacent DCs. The DC to the South was located in California."

21. SID_Console.jpg
This is longer shot of the SD console."

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Re: SID_Close.jpg

I don't know if I can see Portland, but the reflection on the screen is DEFINATELY Darth Vader. (Or is it Duane Weber?)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 20]

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The more I read about the background of the jump and what was going on in the US during the 40's and in the 60's I am starting to believe the Cooper's Jump was a covert CIA operation or a former CIA renegade covert operative.

I disagree with your covert CIA op conclusion Jo, based on slicing your thesis with Occam's razor. I also don't see what CIA goal would be advanced by hijacking a US airliner, asking for money, getting it and jumping out.

Might Cooper have been associated with some CIA op in the past? Sure. He could have been a smokejumper who did CIA airdrop stuff in SE Asia.

It is a big leap from having worked in some CIA afflilated project to being a real CIA agent.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

"snowmman, get your head out of your ass."

heh.

Yes, I can see it's clear to everyone else what it all means.

Sticking my head back up my ass.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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I guess I don't understand the "Indeed"

Snow, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was just commenting that I agreed with Orange's assessment. I'll elaborate a little building off of what Sluggo posted in the interim.

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The T-33 asked permission to go above 305. I have no idea why ATC would reply the way they did, unless it was tacit permission. ATC was telling the T-33 that 305 could not exceed 10,000 MSL (which is the altitude dictated by the hijacker).

The language doesn't sound like anything ATC would say at all. The whole he can't go anywhere type language A) doesn't sound like I would expect ATC or a pilot to talk and B) it simply doesn't jive with what we have in the transcript.

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I guarantee you if Cooper had told them to go to 12,000 they would have and ATC would not object based on previous information. If he had asked for 14,000 MSL, there might have been a problem because the were unpressurized and the mask would have deployed.

This is part of the reason the Norjack passage just doesn't sound legitimate. If we want to say there is a 10,000 ft altitude restriction on 305, one would have to call it a very soft restriction. The transcripts we have, basically say alright the hijacker requested 10,000, if you want/need to go above that just let us know due to other traffic. Also there is no evidence of lateral restrictions in the transcripts that seem inplicit in the Norjack wording.

[377 20]

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Actually I am surprised the USAF revealed that the 727 intercept by ther F 106s failed.

OK, I must have missed something important here.

I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the
"document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I
was asleep and missed it -

Where is this document. ???

there is none.

exactly.
so 377 is just blowing smoke rings, again, and
siting his "personal opinion" as fact!

we do have the account of the 106's maneuvering
to stay behind 305, and their seeing 305's light
flashed ....... but the intercept failed according to
377 with nothing to suggest that.

I think I have it now.

Georger,

If I was wrong, my apologies. I can't find any official USAF admission that the F 106 intercept failed.

Peer review is a bitch, but it keeps us from straying too far off the track.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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On the lighter side, programmers over the years had written some interesting "diagnostic" programs for the system. One was the Hula Girl, which was an animated drawing of a hula girl on the display scope. If you pointed the light gun at her navel and pulled the trigger, her skirt would fall off! Another was an interactive game of baseball, played on the display scope by two players. A baseball diamond was drawn, with some crude base runners. One player would press a button on the scope to pitch the ball, and the other would press a button on a cord attached to the scope to swing. If the batter connected, the men would advance around the bases. One night, after the PMIs were completed, two of our techs were playing baseball on the standby system's maintenance scope. The red phone rang, which was connected to the Senior Director (SD) upstairs in the display room. Expecting a problem, one of the techs answered the phone, to hear the SD ask, "Who's winning?" Apparently, one of the display operators had switched over to the standby system and saw the game in progress.

(from Snow's SAGE website link)

I love it. Hacking a system must be human nature.
A SAGE video game with over 50,000 vacuum tubes making it all happen.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I put the two radar screens with a current google map on the same image, so it's easy to compare.

the google map has a slightly different projection, so the big island off vancouver looks different, size wise.

But I think you can make out that island, seattle, WA. They don't seem to outline OR, although I'm not sure if the outlines match WA exactly.

see what you think. (attached)

I think there's a cluster of hits around Yakima, for instance. One by Spokane too?

(edit)

377: you can see how the weather is obscuring a bit of the screen. I wonder if anything was obscured on 11/24/71?

[377 20]

It's ambiguous to me Snow. If it is painting the Vancouver Island outline it should be showing mountain echoes too and I dont see them clearly.

In my expereince with X band marine radar, weather, especially heavy rain squalls, can totally obscure targets of interest.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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It's ambiguous to me Snow. If it is painting the Vancouver Island outline it should be showing mountain echoes too and I dont see them clearly.

In my expereince with X band marine radar, weather, especially heavy rain squalls, can totally obscure targets of interest.

377

I was thinking both the island outline and the state or sector outlines are artificially produced, say by the computer...i.e. the radar isn't hitting the island outline.

the outline of the island seems similar to the state/sector outlines, to me??

(edit) notice the one line extends out into the ocean. That's why I'm thinking some kind of sector line that roughly corresponds to OR/WA

(edit) if you click on the image to enlarge it, I think you can even see faint lines in the middle radar image that outline areas within the state?? or something.

[snowmman 3]

This is a SID display from the New England area. Can see more clearly what would be on the Situation Display. (pic attached)

http://ed-thelen.org/sage.html

there are selectable displays. Note that it includes geographical boundaries like I was speculating.

"Fig. 7. Situation Display of New England coastline and adjacent installations.

A 19" Charactron (Developed by Hughes Products Co.) cathode-ray-tube displays geographically oriented data covering the whole or part of the sector (Figure 7). On this air situation display scope, the operator can view different categories of tracks or radar data, geographical boundaries, predicted interception points, or special displays generated by the computer to assist his decision.

Every two and one half seconds, the computer generates about two hundred different types of displays requiring up to 20,000 characters, 18,000 points and 5,000 lines. Some of these are always present on an operator's situation display. Others he may select. Some he may request the computer to prepare especially for his viewing. Finally, the computer can force very high priority displays for his attention. "

[georger 197]

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The T-33 asked permission to go above 305. I have no idea why ATC would reply the way they did, unless it was tacit permission. ATC was telling the T-33 that 305 could not exceed 10,000 MSL (which is the altitude dictated by the hijacker).

The language doesn't sound like anything ATC would say at all.

[snowmman 3]

georger said
"I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's
part, then 377's, etal. "

ah okay.

So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then.

We can agree on that?

[georger 197]

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georger said
"I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's
part, then 377's, etal. "

ah okay.

So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then.

I didnt say that at all.
It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew!

[snowmman 3]

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georger said
"I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's
part, then 377's, etal. "

ah okay.

So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then.

I didnt say that at all.
It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew!

No, we do know. Himmelsbach said there was no radar covering on the plane. We got this from Jerry.

So the question is: Why did SAGE DC turn off their radar that night? Was it part of the planned coverup?

Everything points to Jo being correct.

The coverup that night (technology available for tracking. It was disabled)

The coverup afterwards.

Makes sense.

[377 20]

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georger said
"I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's
part, then 377's, etal. "

ah okay.

So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then.

We can agree on that?

Don't forget the door placard. It is pretty good evidence of at least one point in the flight path. Even with unknown wind drift it gives us a pretty good idea of where the NWA 727 was at some point in the door open flight. Agree?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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It's ambiguous to me Snow. If it is painting the Vancouver Island outline it should be showing mountain echoes too and I dont see them clearly.

In my expereince with X band marine radar, weather, especially heavy rain squalls, can totally obscure targets of interest.

377

I was thinking both the island outline and the state or sector outlines are artificially produced, say by the computer...i.e. the radar isn't hitting the island outline.

the outline of the island seems similar to the state/sector outlines, to me??

(edit) notice the one line extends out into the ocean. That's why I'm thinking some kind of sector line that roughly corresponds to OR/WA

(edit) if you click on the image to enlarge it, I think you can even see faint lines in the middle radar image that outline areas within the state?? or something.

What you say about the display does make sense Snow, but I am not certain. Someone on RADOMES can confim what it shows I'll bet.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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georger said
"I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's
part, then 377's, etal. "

ah okay.

So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then.

I didnt say that at all.
It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew!

No, we do know. Himmelsbach said there was no radar covering on the plane. We got this from Jerry.

So the question is: Why did SAGE DC turn off their radar that night? Was it part of the planned coverup?

Everything points to Jo being correct.

The coverup that night (technology available for tracking. It was disabled)

The coverup afterwards.

Makes sense.

Pretty funny.

[snowmman 3]

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Pretty funny.

Exactly.

It's pretty funny, that 38 years later, Himmelsbach could lead a sewing club out to the woods and proclaim that 305 was flying "manually" and off of V-23, which investigators didn't realize because there was no radar covering it that night.

And that Cooper jumped, deployed, landed and crawled to the Washougal where he died. Then the money travelled downstream, and 3 bundles got deposited at Tena Bar.

And that this theory will be tested, by throwing individual bundles of money into the Washougal, in March 2009.

I don't know why people are laughing. This is science.

[georger 197]

of interest.
377

[snowmman 3]

377: this might explain how a view of Cooper jumping, might not have been extractable from stored tapes from SAGE. But the planes flight track would have been (if they stored to tape..note the two minute drum storage limit)

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-ibm-sage.html


From Les Earnest replying to a question about "Popular [DD] Cooper Myths Debunked" - Feb 2007

SAGE computers did record radar data on magnetic drums but kept only about two minutes worth at any given time and discarded old hits as new data came in. These data were used by the computer to automatically track aircraft and those tracks often were recorded on magnetic tape.
However this process would not have "seen" a diverging radar blip unless the radar data was being displayed (it usually wasn't) and it was noticed by the Intercept Director following that flight.

-Les Earnest, who designed the Intercept Director's console layout

[JerryThomas 0]

Happy just talked to Ralph.He was not aware of this shoe you found But is very interested Can you get a beter discription of this shoe to me the shoes cooper was wearing was very distinctive. Jerry