DB Cooper

[JerryThomas 0]

It's amazing how everything pertaining to Duanes family comes to a quick end when it comes to contact with them. Make's me wonder.Whats next a claim that your related to President Washington

[snowmman 3]

377:
I was thinking along those lines, but I was thinking that Cooper revealed that the SAGE intercept was dysfunctional, i.e. that the Russkies could fly in low, in bad weather, and have their way with us. And so that had to be covered up.

Remember the intercept failed.


Which reminds me, from this month's "Echoes Radomes' Quarterly Publication"

(some interesting comments on multiple targets: they were talking about the possibility of Russkie's coming in on the "radar wake" of a commericial plane. Also. maybe the 0.5 nm radar error may had to do with radar pulse width?


While it's true that the FPS-93a pulse width of 6us is half a radar mile, every intercept controller I ever met was able to visually discriminate multiple targets much closer than that. Two overlapping targets just don't look the same as one. First any range separation at all makes the combined pulse wider than 6us, which is detectable. Second the pulses we got back from aircraft were not clean square-topped pulses, but more of a gaussian shape, having a peak in the middle, so two pulses as close as 3us give a distinct double-peak in the 'scope paint.

Visualize a two-humped camel versus a one-hump. Even though the humps are closer together than the length of the camel, you can still count two humps. Anybody who's ever had a GPA-98 (target and jamming simulator) thrown at them can see the difference instantly, because it's too rectangular. Third if you have two heavy aircraft at the same azimuth (bearing) and range, the paint you get is REALLY strong, which will look wrong to an experienced operator. Furthermore, any lateral separation (azimuth separation, relative to the site) would show up as an abnormally long arc, or a double-peak in the paint brightness, since there's a gaussian shape to the antenna beam as well.

I've seen operators get height cuts on targets accurate to better than 1000 ft, even though the paint is 15,000 ft tall on the 'scope, with water/ground reflections and multiple aircraft close together. In fact it was fairly typical during intercept exercises that the combined paint from three or four aircraft would look to the untrained eye like one big blob, but a good operator could keep them all straight. I've also seen operators pick up targets weaker than the MDS (minimum-discernable-signal) of the radar receiver, just by visually integrating the multiple pulses visible in the persistence of the CRT phosphors. RAdio Detection And Ranging really was an art.

[snowmman 3]

377 said
"SAGE must have had a mode that would suppress the data display block that surrounded any echo of a transponder equipped friendly aircraft, otherwise it would be too easy for a Russian bomber to penetrate the ADIZ by flying in close formation trailing an incoming friendly trans Pacific airliner and remaining hidden in the data block area surrounding the airliner echo. "

it's a funny coincidence that you mention this. I posted one part of the exchange talking about discerning multiple targets this month (the old guys like to speculate about recent events)...here's the start of it


Okay what about this idea? How close to a commercial "heavy" would a USSR R/C have to fly in order to stay in the heavy's radar shadow and avoid his turbulence, so AC&W could squawk the heavy but miss the R/C? Heavies used to fly north of the Aleutians over the Bering towards Anchorage. Why not send in recces with them and back out again using the same methods?
xxx xxxxxxx

You're on the right track, xxx. At some point during my stay at the King ('75-'76) we had a rather bold intruder follow astern of a regular Flying Tiger civilian bird. He was painting separately, so wasn't even trying to hide. He came right along FT's normal track up the Aleutioan chain towards Anchorage. And, of course, all this time we've got our Rhinos sitting out at the end of the runway, pilot's and controllers' adrenaline pumping, just waiting for clearance to intercept. Just as the strange a/c would have entered our airspace, he turned north as if to say "See? We know right where your silly boundaries are. Neener."

The inevitable happened. Once were were in a clear tail chase, ANRAC finally cleared us to scramble. Our guys were really mad at being denied a good intercept-especially when they got to within spitting range. Then this taciturn stranger bumped up to above the mach and literally ran away from our F-4s. Prevailing intel said there was nothing in the Soviet inventory that could fly that fast. We advised ANRAC of what we saw. ANRAC told us what we would instead call it. I guess there's a reason they call it 'war games'

[javelin1 0]

WAIT I"VE GOT IT! a DB COOPER board game!

[Orange1 0]

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WAIT I"VE GOT IT! a DB COOPER board game!

Brilliant idea!
Maybe along the lines of Clue, where who Cooper was changes each game

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

I wonder what kind of person would want to wear a
"D. Weber Jump School" T-shirt?

http://www.zazzle.com/dweb_tshirt-235137390305307613

this may seem like "coincidence" until you see that the creator put a "DB Cooper" search tag on it.

It all makes sense when you see someone has a "DB Cooper Jump School" T-shirt.

http://www.zazzle.com/db_cooper_jump_school_tshirt-235020381978337193

I find the refrigerator magnet more tasteful
http://www.zazzle.com/d_b_cooper_pin_magnet-147472563131554241

My guess, based on a sense from jumpers on this thread, is that I might not be warmly embraced if I showed up at a DZ with either of those T-shirts? Bad idea?

[377 20]

If you bring enough beer you will be warmly received regardless of what we really think of your t-shirt. That's a promise.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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It's amazing how everything pertaining to Duanes family comes to a quick end when it comes to contact with them. Make's me wonder.Whats next a claim that your related to President Washington

How do you contact Dead People?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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How do you contact Dead People?

The best way is using a radio or other electronic device because of EVPs (Electronic Voice Phenomenon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon

There are about 400 members of the AAEVP who might be able to help:

http://www.aaevp.com/

"The American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena (AA-EVP) is a nonprofit educational association that is dedicated to the support of people who are interested in or who are studying Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) and Instrumental TransCommunication (ITC). This website offers examples, techniques and concepts concerning these phenomena.

The study of EVP concerns unexpected voices found in recording media or heard as an output of devices capable of processing voice, and is studied as a form of after death communication. ITC is a newer term that includes all of the ways these unexpected voices and images are collected through technology, including EVP. Of the many hypotheses designed to explain these phenomena, the Survival Hypothesis has been found to be most effective in answering the evidence, and therefore, the most useful for designing research protocols."

There is a lot of proof on the site, for instance:

"In this first example, the Butlers were recording in one of the cell blocks at Alcatraz. You can hear Lisa Butler say, "You can speak on this device." Immediately after that, one or two men can be heard saying, "That's right, we know you." The example appeared in Tom's recorder but not in Lisa's. It has been slightly filtered above 1300 Khz."

the sound is here:
http://www.aaevp.com/examples/sound/(c)butler2004_thats_right_we_know_you.mp3


If Cooper died, it is very likely that the traumatic event caused his Ghost to be trapped near where he died. It is possible that we could find out more, by walking the flight path with an AM radio tuned to 305 khz. Other interesting frequencies might be the radar frequency used that night, or any of the pilot's voice comm frequencies back then.

[happythoughts 0]

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Snow: You are correct. They even brought ought troops from Ft Lewis to search the area. Alot was found But nothing pertaining to this case.

clicky

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I spent a month or two in the the dead winter of 1971 looking for DB while I was stationed at Fort Lewis with the the Third Cav.They called it adventure training I carried the radio for my captain and was close to the FBI agents every day. I saw a map overlay of where they thought DB droped from the plane along with the wind pattern. At the very spot where they estimated his chute opened I found a brown penny loafer in the woods next to a remote farm field.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Orange said:

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Someone remind me. There are 2 separate sets of 305 comms on the transcripts. One is with ATC, is the other with NWA, or who? I have pointed out before that the one seems more detailed than the other but also that it is not verbatim comments - i originally thought one was a summary but that isn't the case. One is Seatac ATC (the more detailed one) the other is "flight ops". Who are flight ops?
(Apologies if this has been asked & answered already.)

Orange, it is exactly as you have assumed. The Flight Ops is with Northwest's Flight Operations department.

[JerryThomas 0]

Jo you already said Duane has family still alive. Now your saying all his family is dead.Go figure.

[snowmman 3]

377: was wondering what you thought on the following.

I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request.

We have evidence of the following:

1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.

3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted.

In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on?

[georger 197]

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377: was wondering what you thought on the following.

I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request.

We have evidence of the following:

1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.

3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted.

In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on?

You sure know how to end a conversation!

Are you and Jo going to sue to have the Easter
Bunny banned from schools?

And parachutes from all private citizens?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

377: was wondering what you thought on the following.

I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request.

We have evidence of the following:

1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.

3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted.

In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on?

You sure know how to end a conversation!

Are you and Jo going to sue to have the Easter
Bunny banned from schools?

And parachutes from all private citizens?

You're trying to draw parallels that don't make sense.

I talk freedom, and you say it leads to restrictions.
That's dumb.

You seem to take for granted a lot of work that people have done on your behalf, to keep information freely accessible.
(I'm talking generally).

I know I appreciate anyone who has ever worked on making information available.

Why do conversations end? Lack of fun? How can I be accused of being "no fun".
I think I'm the most fun.

There are two additional things
1) Cost. Normally they try to dissuade FOIA work, by charging fees. But it's been demonstrated, thru TK, that the FOIA work can be "FREE"..i.e. Tom was granted access and photographed documents. So I should be able to argue for the same access.
i.e. library-style access.

This could lead to a broad-brush effect on a wide amount of government material, outside of DBC.

2) I believe there are issues involved that could make a request for expedited processing plausible...i.e. questions of public confidence, manipulation etc. We also have information about possible CIA involvement. The 1970 film before the Cooper hijack, and the SR-71 mention.

From a boilerplate FOIA request generator:

If your request is to the Department of Justice or any of its components such as the FBI and your request concerns a matter of "widespread and exceptional media interest in which there exist possible questions about the government's integrity which affect public confidence," you should explain why your request meets these criteria in a request for expedited processing addressed to the Director of Public Affairs, U.S. Department of Justice, Room 1128, 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20530-0001. At the end of this request you should state: I certify that my statements concerning the need for expedited processing are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.


I guess the point being, that government employees can't create secret groups of citizens that have additional access rights to government information, that other citizens are denied.

[skyjack71 0]

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1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.
3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

My dear Baboon and Snowmman:
Attention Tom Kaye

I guess I have been sleeping - would someone explain the paragraph I just highlighted in red?

If that statement is correct and I assume it is - WHAT CIA INVOLVEMENT? What photographic image? Or are you talking about the CIA clip we all saw on the forum. What does Kaye have the public is NOT entitled to?

I thought it only involved something in a chemical analysis and I have something that needs to be tested for that same element - the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the book the photo was in ..it is more than wet - it was very dark - just the cover part. The damaged cover is Gold and the other is Blue.

I thought they had detemined that the element was contamination after the fact.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.
3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

My dear Baboon and Snowmman:
Attention Tom Kaye

I guess I have been sleeping - would someone explain the paragraph I just highlighted in red?

If that statement is correct and I assume it is - WHAT CIA INVOLVEMENT? What photographic image? Or are you talking about the CIA clip we all saw on the forum. What does Kaye have the public is NOT entitled to?

I thought it only involved something in a chemical analysis and I have something that needs to be tested for that same element - the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the book the photo was in ..it is more than wet - it was very dark - just the cover part. The damaged cover is Gold and the other is Blue.

I thought they had detemined that the element was contamination after the fact.

I think that by "image" he meant the scan of the SR-71 text from a document, not a picture. The image was the attachment posted earlier showing the mention of [an] SR-71 overflight. CIA involvement in that context would be the CIA's ability to access/acquire data from USAF "spy planes". No big deal CIA-wise.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[BruceSmith 3]

I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request.

We have evidence of the following:

1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public.

2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public.

3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication)

I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted.

In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on?

[snowmman 3]

Tsar Bomba said "CIA involvement in that context would be the CIA's ability to access/acquire data from USAF "spy planes". No big deal CIA-wise."

No the issue is CIA involvement in domestic law enforcement. It's an issue.
Yes it might not be a big deal. Probably since nothing happened. But one never knows till one gets the files.

If a CIA overflight of the USA, for domestic law enforcement reasons occured, it'd be interesting to know as a precedent for the use of UAVs going forward in the USA by the FBI/CIA.

UAVs would save a lot of money, but citizens might not like it.

Half of me is also looking for angles for Bruce to write up.

Wouldn't it be incredibly spicy if there was some kind of coverup buried in the Cooper files? I mean its unlikely, since it seems more like incompetence, but imagine if there was a directive from Hoover to Himmelsbach, to spin the "Cooper is Dead" story...and Himmmelsbach is following Hoover's marching orders still?

I mean the craziness we're hearing, nonstop, where only the crazy lady seems to be rational...it's just crazy!

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example.

The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public.

[georger 197]

I'm totally with you Snow. Let's call Larry's bluff and the FBi's claim that it needs Citizen Sleuths. Let's demand they turn over all the DB Cooper files to the public. Let's all help the FBI here.

I'm ready and willing to be a full-bodied sleuth! Give me the tools to be one, Mr. Ckret!

[georger 197]

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example.

The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public.

[georger 197]

only the crazy lady seems to be rational...it's just crazy!

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example.

The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public.

[georger 197]

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example.

The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public.

[1969912 0]

Good points about the CIA.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Orange1 0]

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Orange said:

Quote

Someone remind me. There are 2 separate sets of 305 comms on the transcripts. One is with ATC, is the other with NWA, or who? I have pointed out before that the one seems more detailed than the other but also that it is not verbatim comments - i originally thought one was a summary but that isn't the case. One is Seatac ATC (the more detailed one) the other is "flight ops". Who are flight ops?
(Apologies if this has been asked & answered already.)

Orange, it is exactly as you have assumed. The Flight Ops is with Northwest's Flight Operations department.

Thanks Mr Nuke.
So when people complain we don't have access to the NWA stuff... well we have the transcripts between 305 and NWA. What other NWA stuff do "we" want, actually?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.