DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

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If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts?

It does show up in the transcripts. You can find it on pages 189 and 190. ATC told them they could bust altitude by 4000 feet. 305 also requested not to be restricted by the noise abatement procedure and was granted permission to climb at any angle they needed to. They also were told “No restrictions at all, you fly any way you can do her”.

Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

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snowmman,

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If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts?

It does show up in the transcripts. You can find it on pages 189 and 190. ATC told them they could bust altitude by 4000 feet. 305 also requested not to be restricted by the noise abatement procedure and was granted permission to climb at any angle they needed to. They also were told “No restrictions at all, you fly any way you can do her”.

Sluggo

Everything you refer to is all before 305 takes off, not during flight.

The immediately next exchange is on page 190

(GC): And 305 another suggestion if you do get on top of 10,000 let center know because there's going to be people behind you and probably be trailing along with you.

(P): Ground Northwest 305 we didn't answer you, were were talking with the company.

(GC): Okay you're going to have people following you all the way down so if you do get on top or where the visibility is good, you might advise center about it.

(P): Okay we will do that. Thank-you sir.

So how you do interpret that? Why only mention altitude?

Everyone can form their own opinions. If people think there's stuff that confirms other stuff, that says 305 wasn't where the flight map path says, that's fine with me. We all have different opinions on lots of stuff. Might as well have different flight paths!

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Sluggo beat me to this, but I am going to try and provide a little more detail.

snomman said:

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My understanding of ATC is that it's not a thing where you can drink beer while working, right? They really like to know what a plane is going to do, before it does it right?

Under normal operating conditions you are exactly right. This is also why you have standardized "roads in the sky" in the form of V and J routes. . It significantly reduces the workload for ATC. ATC's job is to guarantee safe travel by insuring separation between aircraft. With standardized routes ATC will vector aircraft from the airport to the route and off of the route to the destination airport. During the flight ATC monitors the aircraft in their sector to ensure adequate separation is maintained.

However, as we are all aware this wasn't a normal flight. The most obvious way of explaining how the rules can change is a pilot declaring an emergency. In a declared emergency, the rules of the road go out the window. ATC will give the plane declaring the emergency significant leeway. Controllers will not only do their best to guide the plane with the problem down, but they will also reroute other aircraft as needed to keep everyone safe.

With 305, we see a somewhat similar situation.

On page 188 there is an extended conversation where V-23 to Sacramento is decided upon by all parties.
On Page 189
305, indicates that they have concerns about getting up to altitude in an expedited manner and asks about any possible restrictions.

Normally departing busier airports you will be given heading/altitude restrictions that you are expected to comply with to ensure optimal traffic flow and safety.

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Ground control replies, "No restrictions at all. You fly in the best way you can do her."

This is significant "latitude."

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305, replies, "Thank you."
Ground control responds "And 305, there'll be people with you all the way down."

Page 190 provides further clarification of how broad said latitude is.

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"another suggestion, if you do get on top of 10,000 let center know because there's going to be people behind you and probably trailing along with you."

This statement goes to what has been asked in the previous couple of pages about other traffic. ATC basically says you are free to do whatever you want below 10,000. If for some reason you need to go above 10,000 advise us, because there will be not only chase aircraft, but other commercial traffic being routed above you.

On page 191 again the range of the discretion given to the pilots is illustrated.
The ground controller is talking to the tower/departure controller

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"Northwest 305, he wants to go to altitude as fast as he can go, so don't restrict him... And he's cleared to Sacramento. I don't know he may deviate on his own, he said he didn't know, but he would go one way or another to do whatever he needs."

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Doesn't the lack of additional voice comms pretty much say they were flying as expected on V23??

Under normal operations this would likely be a fair assumption. Once a commercial flight departs the airport, and especially when they get above 18,000 required communication levels drop significantly. Above 18,000 the altimeter gets set to the standard 29.92, and the airplane is likely already on the "J" route. Thus the only communication that is typically necessary is to alert to traffic conflicts.

Again in this case, normal is obviously no longer in play. 305 was given significant leeway by ATC, and other traffic was kept out of the way. In this situation the only communication I would expect is if A) there was an plane somewhere where it shouldn't have been or B) if 305 was heading towards say Mt. St. Helens.

What happens if you're flying and you start diverging? Does ATC say anything to you usually?

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at happens if you're flying and you start diverging? Does ATC say anything to you usually?

If you are on ATC flight following on a VFR flight you dictate your own route. For commercial operations, flights in inclement weather, anything above 18,000, or pilots choice that necessitates IFR flight rules and an IFR flight plan, You bet ATC will tell you if you were deviating. However, as Sluggo and I have been saying and I think you realize this was not a normal flight.

In this case ATC is essentially becoming a support service for 305. They are going to clear the airspace below 10,000 for 305. They are also standing by to act as a communication intermediary, and provide any support services that they can at the behest of 305's crew.

[snowmman 3]

Yeah whatever.

You're saying the transcripts don't preclude Rataczak flying wherever he liked...i.e. nothing in them excludes it.

They don't support it either.

So, the transcripts add nothing in terms of understanding the flight path.

So we're back where we started. No idea where 305 flew or Cooper jumped.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

snowmman:

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Everything you refer to is all before 305 takes off, not during flight.

What is your point? Normal IFR operations require clearance before departure. This clearance will include route information (either confirmation or alterations of the filed route) departure heading, speed, and altitude restrictions. Most of the groundwork for what the cockpit is expected to do is precisely that groundwork.

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The immediately next exchange is on page 190

(GC): And 305 another suggestion if you do get on top of 10,000 let center know because there's going to be people behind you and probably be trailing along with you.

(P): Ground Northwest 305 we didn't answer you, were were talking with the company.

(GC): Okay you're going to have people following you all the way down so if you do get on top or where the visibility is good, you might advise center about it.

(P): Okay we will do that. Thank-you sir.

So how you do interpret that? Why only mention altitude?

Altitude is only mentioned, because it is the only relevant parameter to mention. You see on page 191, 305 is given discretion on the routing. However, this discretion applies only below 10,000 feet for the time being, due to 10,000 being the assumed cruise altitude based off of the given parameters. Anything above 10,000 could cause conflicts with other traffic. Note the controller isn't saying 305 can't go above 10,000, merely they are suggesting any intention to do so be stated.

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Everyone can form their own opinions. If people think there's stuff that confirms other stuff, that says 305 wasn't where the flight map path says, that's fine with me. We all have different opinions on lots of stuff. Might as well have different flight paths!

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Everyone can form their own opinions. If people think there's stuff that confirms other stuff, that says 305 wasn't where the flight map path says, that's fine with me. We all have different opinions on lots of stuff. Might as well have different flight paths!

This isn't about confirming anyone's theory about the flight path. It is about answering specific questions you and others have posed. In this case you questioned the statement about latitude. Two posters came back with well thought out replies citing specific examples of broad latitude given to 305. It isn't an opinion or information seeking to confirm a theory.
This is also precisely the reason that other contributors have left the board. It is rather frustrating when specific questions are asked, and knowledgably answers are given, but completely disreguarded.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow the trafic at PDX was not as busy as it is today still there was stacking of aircraft.However they still landed the same direction depending on wind conditions.. Lets not forget the cross winds that causes pilots to crab there aircraft in for a landing. yes there was reports of bad cross winds.At the time of this flight. That can be found in more than one report.Now once again the Coast Guard has reports of conditions for that evening and so does the National Guard. Along with all the TV and Radio stations to include all small airports in the area.Mt St hellens is how far to the east of V23 And how many miles from Portland. What are the deviation Boundaries? These questions I have asked and can answer. I've even questioned and checked out all reports. Snow I think maybe you are the only one that can use your computer knowledge to plot a simple flight map. Lets try this Plot seperate maps in one mile incraments from the original suspected dropzone too 13 miles east. No wind deviation. Just simple ploting.Now The Placard was found in the flight path but still to the east. of V23 . 13 mi or more East of Woodland Wa.This realy doesn't mater. This is why you take a piece of plastic and drop it from 100ft with a small breeze and it lands in a direction that is controlled by wind and heat uprising from the earth.It's realy strange.A gust makes it act like a kite with out a tail for stabilization . Need I say moore. Thanks Snow . Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Mr Nuke
"This is also precisely the reason that other contributors have left the board. It is rather frustrating when specific questions are asked, and knowledgably answers are given, but completely disreguarded."

Hi Nuke.

Sorry to offend. I'm just stating what I think. If that's offensive, well I guess I'm offensive!

When you say "the board", I'm assuming you're taking about me, because I was the only one who responded about those particulars.

I think the mistake is that you want the Citizen's Task Force..i.e. contact the FBI thru the email address on their web site. There apparently is a mechanism where you can help with the investigation that way.

Here, I don't think there is anything such as "the board".

[JerryThomas 0]

Nuke what is attidude? Or hey Dude It could Altidude! What is a Idea? Or better Yet. A question asked without tack.Still all questions can be honered with proper respect. It's how it's asked that can be Important.

[1969912 0]

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Nuke what is attidude? Or hey Dude It could Altidude! What is a Idea? Or better Yet. A question asked without tack.Still all questions can be honered with proper respect. It's how it's asked that can be Important.

Did you graduate from grade school? In the US?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

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Nuke what is attidude? Or hey Dude It could Altidude! What is a Idea? Or better Yet. A question asked without tack.Still all questions can be honered with proper respect. It's how it's asked that can be Important.

Did you graduate from grade school? In the US?

:) My thoughts were

1) The stuff about questions and respect: I have an image of a trannie sitting at the end of the bar, flirting with some guy hitting on her/him at the witching hour. Maybe it's because of Bruce and his Dayton story.

2) At a strip club, it's all about how you pass the bills. Gotta do it with respect.

3) If you meet a Buddha in the road.....kill him. No I mean, ask him who DB Cooper is.

4) How come the women here are the ones that are cool, calm, collected, and the guys are the emotional ones that sound like we're in high school again?

[1969912 0]

I don't like to beat up on people, but what the hell is this? Husband/wife team going for the Ozark's Literacy Medal of Honor?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 194]

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I think Jerry has some real good intentions, but how on earth can anyone determine a DZ with the info currently available. It has more holes in it than swiss cheese. I would agree to go on a search with you Jerry, if I knew we had some evidence to search a given area. Otherwise it is all just one big crapshoot.

I often wondered if Coop just threw out a few stacks of bills from the plane intending it to be found to throw off the search. There would be no way three bundles would stay together in it's freefall though...Could they?

I almost agree with everything above. Bundles
could stay together if they were wrapped in the
the reserve front chute which was gone when they
inspected the plane at Reno. Just because one front reserve was gone does not meet it went along with
Cooper. Using that chute packed with some money
would be a good decoy ... if found.

As I see this, the whole flight path/DZ issue is
below Merwin Lake, not north of Merwin back to
SEA?

The conflict is between the FBI Map and
Himmeslbach, but H does not have an alternate
map to back his version up.

I have no doubt whatever, Jerry is pursuing what
he believes to be the correct flight path version.

Which makes you wonder: why is Carr and the Seattle Office presenting their yellow sectional
map at all, if they know its wrong?

[georger 194]

I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.

[georger 194]

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SNOW, you have the plane that has been discussed here that was suposedly behind and above, go back a few pages you guys went back and forth about it for a while.

thats Tom Bohan in Continental flight #???, landed
at PDX and filed a wind report ...

[georger 194]

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snowmman,

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If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts?

It does show up in the transcripts. You can find it on pages 189 and 190. ATC told them they could bust altitude by 4000 feet. 305 also requested not to be restricted by the noise abatement procedure and was granted permission to climb at any angle they needed to. They also were told “No restrictions at all, you fly any way you can do her”.

Sluggo_Monster

thats exactly right - verbatum...

[georger 194]

This isn't about confirming anyone's theory about the flight path. It is about answering specific questions you and others have posed. In this case you questioned the statement about latitude. Two posters came back with well thought out replies citing specific examples of broad latitude given to 305. It isn't an opinion or information seeking to confirm a theory.
This is also precisely the reason that other contributors have left the board. It is rather frustrating when specific questions are asked, and knowledgably answers are given, but completely disreguarded.

[georger 194]

The Placard was found in the flight path but still to the east. of V23 . 13 mi or more East of Woodland Wa.This realy doesn't mater.

[georger 194]

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Nuke what is attidude? Or hey Dude It could Altidude! What is a Idea? Or better Yet. A question asked without tack.Still all questions can be honered with proper respect. It's how it's asked that can be Important.

Did you graduate from grade school? In the US?

everyone take their wolfman pill!

1969912 is NOT a prime number.

[dy8coke 0]

He flew on the L1049's (Super Connie). Navy designation R7V-1. He was in Navy MATS VR-7, VR-21 and VRC-50, altho VRC-50 was a COD squardron with C-2 Greyhounds and he was not flight crew then.

[snowmman 3]

I don't think we've discussed the significance of the photos howardwhite posted in the other thread, enough.

listing some thoughts.

-the 727 static line test was with aft airstair removed, and ramp inserted.

-most jumpers have jumped 727 with airstair removed.

-howardwhite's photos show two jumpers, film guy first, backwards, "cooper" about to jump from second step

-the side curtains on the stair rails are missing.

-Who took the picture of the two on the airstairs? What did they see the airstair do? (or did they rig the airstair to stay down somehow???)

-The sled drop test didn't use a jumper. Also what speed was the sled drop test at? The speed of the plane was varying towards Portland, if you look at the ground speed implied by the distance between 1 minute radar tics. Maybe 240 MPH? (have to check). With wind, the actual air speed would be even more?

The movie apparently used a 727-100. The airstairs I think wouldn't lock down in a 727-100.

So it would be really interesting, for new data, to know what happened after "cooper" jumped. Did the airstair pop back up?

In the first picture (I'm assuming it's real, not a composite? snap from a video?)...you can see the airstair. It looks like it's still open to me?

Now we don't know how fast the movie 727 was flying. They must have had to slow down to get the stairs open? What were the flaps at? 30? 15?

It's interesting. Those two photos are unique, because I don't think we have data on ANYONE else other than Cooper, actually jumping from an airstair.

[Orange1 0]

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snowmman:............
This isn't about confirming anyone's theory about the flight path. It is about answering specific questions you and others have posed. In this case you questioned the statement about latitude. Two posters came back with well thought out replies citing specific examples of broad latitude given to 305. It isn't an opinion or information seeking to confirm a theory.
This is also precisely the reason that other contributors have left the board. It is rather frustrating when specific questions are asked, and knowledgably answers are given, but completely disreguarded.

Snow, I have sympathy for Mr Nuke's point here. He tried in a very thorough way to answer your post, and you just dissed it with a "yeah, whatever". Are you falling into the Jo trap of dismissing whatever doesn't support your theory?

And 1969912... I thought the ozark comment was uncalled for. Plenty posters on dz.com who leave a lot to be desired in the grammar/spelling stakes. Perhaps what they have to say is more important than how they state it. I prefer the approach of picking holes in arguments rather than grammar.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger you found my wifes birthdate.

[SchlitznGrins 0]

Orange, well put. You are the new voice or reason. 377 is fired

How hard is it to stay on course flying manually? I keep on thinking back to snow's flight simulations he made up a while back and it seemed he was veerring off course quite a bit.

Jerry, your whole theory hinges on the pilots trying to avoid populated areas in case the plane blew up, that is why he lands in the forest, correct?

Georger said it best when he said we needed some input from NWA. They most likely hold all of the missing pieces.

[snowmman 3]

Orange1 said: "Snow, I have sympathy for Mr Nuke's point here. He tried in a very thorough way to answer your post, and you just dissed it with a "yeah, whatever". Are you falling into the Jo trap of dismissing whatever doesn't support your theory?"


The dismissal was because Nuke was just layering a lot of speculation about what ATC could/would do. Sure he might be right, but just as easily wrong. I had the reaction that it was speculation supporting speculation.

The only "possible fact" was that "nothing in the transcript precludes 305 flying wherever it wanted".

But even that was debatable because of the comment about other planes following and wanting to be informed if 305 changed altitude. Nuke and Sluggo were trying to say that other language said they could fly wherever they wanted.

So my "whatever" was a summary comment that one could just believe whatever one wanted to believe, because there were no facts. And that the long post was speculation about speculation.

Yes, I do lump all that in the same category as much of Jo's stuff. That's my opinion. Sorry if it offends people.

I will refrain from commenting more on the alternate flight path stuff.

[JerryThomas 0]

Yes that is partly correct.Added to that is information from Ralph And Rat.Then I took into consideration ,of where the money Brian found was and the statement made by the hydroligist .Then I looked at the watersheds too determine how the money could have found its way to Tena bar.Weather conditions at the time of the jump also was considered.Now! knowing how fast the streams and rivers in this area rise and fall during flood stage and how often this happens (flooding) of all the streams and rivers. Most not recorded.Gives me reason to believe that the money had to of come down the Washougal watershed.That is the only way the money could have found its way to Tena Bar.Believe me I originally thought that Cooper landed in the columbia river. Then I researched the entire case and came to my conclusions. Jerry