DB Cooper

[TomKaye 1]

All,

A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public. We will be able to release info in the published paper.

Before the window closes, I can tell you that there probably was a clay layer report, I am sure I must have seen it, but it was insignificant enough that I didn't bother to even photograph it.

Tom

[snowmman 3]

wolfriverjoe said

"The Poynter manuals have pics and descriptions of the NB-6 and Pioneer rigs too, but those aren't onlline that I can find. Maybe Snowmman can find them. "

From the info Ckret provided, we can't identify the Pioneer rig. We can revisit that if there are more knowledgeable people reading now.

With respect to the NB-6, there are subtleties. I don't think people realized that the NB-6 has slight changes over time, and different manufacturers. A current NB-6 (like you can buy on Ebay as surplus, likely '90s era) is not what a 1971 or earlier NB-6 looked like. Essentially the same, but the key point: We don't have an exact photo of the NB-6 Cooper had.

[Orange1 0]

Clay notwithstanding, with Agent H around either lurking the forum or in contact with active posters, I am reminded that there were a number of news reports that said he believed Duane was a credible suspect around the time Jo was going public with her story. I would be interested to know (assuming that the original reports were correct) if he still thinks Duane is a credible suspect.


Edited to add a definition in case some of the people not used to the net think I am being disparaging
In Internet culture, a lurker is a person who reads discussions on a message board, newsgroup, chatroom, file sharing or other interactive system, but rarely if ever posts or participates.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

All,

A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public. We will be able to release info in the published paper.

Before the window closes, I can tell you that there probably was a clay layer report, I am sure I must have seen it, but it was insignificant enough that I didn't bother to even photograph it.

Tom

Thanks Tom.

I don't know why you would post that there wasn't a Clay Report, if you didn't know if there was a Clay Report.

By now, you must be sensitive to how myths get created with Cooper, and I'm surprised you create them so easily.

You created the SR-71 myth. There is no data than anything happened with the SR-71, except that one line you provided.

But you fell into the trap of implying something.

It's really easy to see how people get sucked into creating myths. Everyone thinks they know stuff, or can digest stuff, better than others. And that secret data makes sense.

Good luck with your plan.

[377 20]

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Hey it's actually cool to see that Ralph is back in the fray.

I'm seriously all for getting the guys from back-in-the-day back out and cutting it up with the new guys who think they're all that!

Go Ralph. Look forward to seeing maybe some insight from someone who was actually there, on all the questions we have.

Thanks Jerry.

Being a total aviation nut I want to know what Ralph flew as a military pilot. I know it wasn't an SR 71 but I would be impressed by any early planes. Jerry, can you ask him?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Quote

Hey it's actually cool to see that Ralph is back in the fray.

I'm seriously all for getting the guys from back-in-the-day back out and cutting it up with the new guys who think they're all that!

Go Ralph. Look forward to seeing maybe some insight from someone who was actually there, on all the questions we have.

Thanks Jerry.

Being a total aviation nut I want to know what Ralph flew as a military pilot. I know it wasn't an SR 71 but I would be impressed by any early planes. Jerry, can you ask him?

377

I'd like to hear stories about Ralph's days as a fighter pilot. I think I posted the exact plane he flew before.

And when did he jump? Military or Sport? Was it before 1971?

Ralph may have more expertise that's relevant than a lot of the posters here...well 377 goes back a ways, but we're missing 60s-era jumpers. (early 60s)

[JerryThomas 0]

As to your question on Duane Webber. Ralph does not believe he was cooper.

[377 20]

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A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public.

Who is the FBI DBC czar who first muzzled Ckret and now Tom? I voted for change. This isn't change.

I am going to write to my congressperson and get some daylight shining in Seattle. Maybe they still have W's picture hanging in the office. Maybe J Edgar too.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public.

Who is the FBI DBC czar who first muzzled Ckret and now Tom? I voted for change. This isn't change.

I am going to write to my congressperson and get some daylight shining in Seattle. Maybe they still have W's picture hanging in the office. Maybe J Edgar too.

377

Since everyone's revealing who's pulling their strings. I guess i need to. Obviously during the election transition I couldn't say much, but now that they're threatening to come after us for stuff we did during the Bush years, all gloves are off.

When I walk the halls, I see guys dumping secret files now to 120GB thumb drives right and left. The biggest hole: they left the USB ports open on the PCs everyone had. Thumbdrive fits on your keychain. WHOOPS!

Hey Sluggo was theorizing about Northerners and Sortherners. Here's my theory.
Northerners call you a fat old man to your face.
Southerners smile, offer you tea, and talk smack when you're not around.

[snowmman 3]

Tom,
Since you're a scientist, you're obviously analyzing the leached material in the manila folder that the FBI kept the money in, correct.

I know it's obvious, but just wanted to mention it, so people can look for it in your report, when you release it.

Normally, you wouldn't expect the staining we saw in the photos.

It might be nothing, but one would have to do testing to know it's nothing.

[377 20]

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When I walk the halls, I see guys dumping secret files now to 120GB thumb drives right and left. The biggest hole: they left the USB ports open on the PCs everyone had. Thumbdrive fits on your keychain. WHOOPS!

Yeah, cheap solid state memory and image sensors have made things so much tougher for the feds involved in couterintelligence and spycatching. I don't envy their jobs. Tech deck is stacked in favor of the bad guys.

I used to get security briefings in the 70s when the hot spy tech weapons were Minox film cameras. Now an internet enabled cellphone with a camera can be an awesome spy tool.

Just think how easier Cooper's skyjack would have been if he had a GPS and a cell phone. McCoy did it all with no high tech assists, so we know it can be done.

Bruce, I am not being sarcastic in asking this. Can you glean any info about Cooper's personality from his interaction with the flight attendants? I may be reading too much into it but he didn't seem especially socially inept in dealing with Tina.

I have seen people with serious personality disroders when I did volunteer work in a county rehab center a long time ago. The serious cases just couldnt interact successfully or appropriately in even very brief social encounters. They were awkward in the extreme.

Safe, can't you say that Gossett's story fits too? If Duane can be Cooper why can't Gossett?

BTW, I am sure you made Jo's day by saying that Duane fits the DBC facts so far. That is a good thing even if I disagree with what made her feel good.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

All,

I feel I should mention the post Bruce made above about the pysch disorders he first sent to me in a PM and was reluctant to post it here because it wasn't "hard evidence". I told him we had touched on a number of the issues already anyway and invited him to post it here.

I myself have been wondering about narcissistic personality disorder. Believing you are innately superior to others (possibly explaining the brush-off of instructions on the rig so as not to "look dumb"), the grudge aspect, among others might describe Cooper in this context. (or they might all be explained otherwise, of course...) IIRC mayoclinic.com has descriptions of various disorders for those who are interested.

Bruce, use the search function at the bottom of the page. You might get other threads in this section popping up in the search results, but i'm guessing most of the CIA and MK Ultra references will be in this thread.

Edited to add: just seen 377's post above. I understand that narcissists can be very adept, polite, entertaining etc in social situations (albeit they have trouble maintaining long term relationships).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

377:
If Tom had told us he was going into the vault, we could have tricked him out with multiple cameras in his glasses etc, with DVRs for live video storage (multiple hours)

We would have had tons of data to analyze, and perhaps info that would have helped us get in the vault thru the back door.

remember, the only other access point we had was the FAX number that was not redacted on the FAX Ckret sent to Sluggo.

That FAX was networked into the Seattle LAN, and my research showed there was a test diagnostic mode that could be activated from the call-in line. Apparently there was the ability to create diagnostic TCP/IP packets from the outside line.

I thought that would be usable to ping the LAN and get info that could be used, in addition to the FAX's sniffing capabilities, but it turned out not to be true.

In any case, we blew a big opportunity by not gearing Tom up appropriately beforehand.

I almost cried when I found out all he had was a digital still camera.

it's like sending a hijacker out the aft stairs with just a NB-6 and a broken reserve.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "I used to get security briefings in the 70s when the hot spy tech weapons were Minox film cameras. Now an internet enabled cellphone with a camera can be an awesome spy tool."

Well, the FBI was on to this next trick. It didn't work.

Since cell phones run operating systems, they can run pretty sophisticated wireless network sniffing software.

Some guys mailed a box with a cell phone on, to Ckret. The cell phone was running wireless network sniffing software, and programmed to send the results out by phone.

The idea was that if you got the right info, then you could use a parabolic antenna aimed at the seattle building's windows, and a high-end 2.4Ghz xmitter/rcvr connected to a PC, to get you logged into the FBI local network.

The problem apparently was that Ckret shot it with his gun, right away.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Thanks Tom, I look forward to reading it. Let us know where and when at the appropriate time please. (Yes, I know you probably would have).

377 - Some personality disorders increase the ability to manipulate others. Pychopaths/Sociopaths are a good example. Ted Bundy was known to be very charming, Charles Manson was also very good at it.

Snowmman - I know we won't find the exact models. I was mainly posting the link for those who want to see the hardware. I just got my textbooks and was a little surprised to see how much detail is in the Poynter texts.

Bruce - Given how much off the wall crap has been posted here, suggestions of personality disorders are well within reason. Can you make any good guesses as to what specific disorders and why you think so?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

Thanks wolfriverjoe. Post whatever you think is interesting from Poynter. It's worth reviewing from your point of view.

With regards to sanity theories. No, there is no evidence that any posters to a DBC thread are sane. I think we all agree on that already? No way to prove?

[377 20]

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377:
If Tom had told us he was going into the vault, we could have tricked him out with multiple cameras in his glasses etc, with DVRs for live video storage (multiple hours)

Yeah Snow, but you know there is a lesson here. We sniped at the FBI from day one (you more viciously and frequently than me) and virtually assured that we would never get on their A list.

If we were REALLY clever we'd have been unfailingly nice, occasionally adoring and we might have been in there with Tom.

Once in the inner sanctum, viral keyboard loggers would have been launched by swapping real time cloned USB drives. Tiny retroreflectors pasted to the windows would have turned them into laser interrogatable sound diaphragms. Oh, the horror.

Ckret isn't dumb. He knew how to bait the mad dogs early and it worked. Only the truly nice dogs were allowed inside. No mistakes were made in identifying breeds.

Now we howl outside waiting for scraps and published papers. Angry snarling street dogs pacing the alley behind the FBI office, rummaging through the trash.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377

I know I argued for sending you the memo, but the group voted against it.

We knew it would be hard to get someone in the vault. There was only one feasible plan.

Obviously it worked, and it's played out well so far.

I know the terrorist-cell-strategy is painful, and for me too, because I didn't get the memo on the next phase. I believe you were on that CC though.

(edit) Duane is God.

(edit) I like the street dog analogy. But the trash angle didn't work. They apparently shred everything first. Can we get to the shredders though?

[JerryThomas 0]

I just talked to Ralph and asked your question he says he flew all kinds of trainers, piper, cessna taylors, spearman ,AT6's, P40's and P51's .

[377 20]

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I just talked to Ralph and asked your question he says he flew all kinds of trainers, piper, cessna taylors, spearman ,AT6's, P40's and P51's .

Wow! Ralph is now OK in my book. Airplanes, especially V 12 powered fighters, take precedence over politics and other petty concerns. Any guy who flew P 40s and P 51s is a hell of a pilot. I had been defining him by his Bonanza, big mistake!

Thanks Jerry!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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377

I know I argued for sending you the memo, but the group voted against it.

We knew it would be hard to get someone in the vault. There was only one feasible plan.

Obviously it worked, and it's played out well so far.

I know the terrorist-cell-strategy is painful, and for me too, because I didn't get the memo on the next phase. I believe you were on that CC though.

You crack me up sometimes Snow.

I can handle rejection in the interest of preserving the cell's ultimate mission.

Carry on.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "You crack me up sometimes Snow."

Obviously I'm just kidding 377.
I loved the move "House of Games"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093223/
Note there is a shrink in the movie, like our embedded journalist.

You are the rock. If we lose 377, we lose our VORTAC on sanity.

But note how trust can break down in an instant.
See that's what Tom Kaye misses, or really any secret club.
Anyone can be "got" to.
Because everyone is paranoid.
Because conspiracies really have existed.

from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick

A confidence trick or confidence game (also known as a bunko, con, flim flam, gaffle, grift, hustle, scam, scheme, or swindle) is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence.

Confidence tricksters often rely on the greed and dishonesty of the mark, who may attempt to out-cheat the con artist, only to discover that he or she has been manipulated into losing from the very beginning. This is such a general principle in confidence tricks that there is a saying among con men that "you can't cheat an honest man."

Nevertheless, some tricks depend on the honesty of the victim. In a common scam, as part of an apparently legitimate transaction, the victim is sent a worthless check, which the victim then deposits. The victim is then urged to forward the apparent value of the check to the trickster as cash, possibly keeping a small portion of the money as a commission, which they may do before discovering the check bounces. Another fashionable scenario has the victim recruited as a "financial agent" to collect "business debts." Paper checks are not always involved: funds may be transferred electronically from another victim.

Sometimes con men rely on naive individuals who put their confidence into get-rich-quick schemes, such as "too good to be true" investments. It may take years for the wider community to discover that such investment schemes are bogus. By the time they are discovered, many people may have lost their life savings to something in which they have been persuaded to invest.

The confidence trickster often works with one or more accomplices called shills, who help manipulate the mark into accepting the con man's plan. In a traditional confidence trick, the mark is led to believe that he will be able to win money or some other prize by doing some task. The accomplices may pretend to be random strangers who have benefited from successfully performing the task.


We can all take a little financial advice from Joseph Weil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil

"Each of my victims had larceny in his heart," explained the master of hanky-panky.

"The desire to get something for nothing has been very costly to many people who have dealt with me and with other con men," Weil writes. "But I have found that this is the way it works. The average person, in my estimation, is ninety-nine per cent animal and one per cent human. The ninety-nine per cent that is animal causes very little trouble. But the one per cent that is human causes all our woes. When people learn -- as I doubt they will -- that they can't get something for nothing, crime will diminish and we shall live in greater harmony."

Weil died in Chicago in 1976 at the age of 100.

[JerryThomas 0]

Your welcome 377. I had told you guys that I was given some maps by a friend and that I would pick them up when I was in washougal.This I did they were'nt what I thought they would be. What they turned out to be was 4-D matic maps dated 1973 contour interval 200ft with supplementary contours at 100ft intervals horizontal scale 1:250,000;vertical scale 1:125,000 (exaggeration 2:1) Transverse mercator projection revised in 1974 the map shows the entire area from north of woodland washington to south of silverton oregon. from the ocean to east of Mt Hood. What is good about these maps is they show the origial logging roads that were there for that time frame and not the was added after 1974.Probably not of much interest to anyone but me. I thought they were flight path maps from 1971. My mistake

[nitrochute 2]

with respect to the nb6 , you are wrong. the most recent ones look almost identical to the older ones, just minor (i.e. subtle changes).

[377 20]

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Thanks Tom, I look forward to reading it. Let us know where and when at the appropriate time please. (Yes, I know you probably would have).

377 - Some personality disorders increase the ability to manipulate others. Pychopaths/Sociopaths are a good example. Ted Bundy was known to be very charming, Charles Manson was also very good at it.

Snowmman - I know we won't find the exact models. I was mainly posting the link for those who want to see the hardware. I just got my textbooks and was a little surprised to see how much detail is in the Poynter texts.

Bruce - Given how much off the wall crap has been posted here, suggestions of personality disorders are well within reason. Can you make any good guesses as to what specific disorders and why you think so?

I wish we could get Dan Poynter to post here once in a while about the gear. You just never know what he might see that we mortals miss. The riggers here know all about the practical aspects of NB6s and surplus canopies, but Poynter could tell you which batch of Navy harness snaps were substandard due to improper heat treatment, how the color standard for sage green is calibrated and which manuafacturers' springs held their characteristics the longest in MA1 pilot chutes.

As far as personality disorders go, read a few entries from this DSM IV (shrink bible) summary and see if you can recognize any of your friends or spouses described therein:

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/_misc/complete_tables.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.