DB Cooper

[georger 194]

BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

[happythoughts 0]

Since the stairs were used at airports...
if a person was at an airport...

...and was watching airplanes through a window.
Perhaps watching friends take off.

The random airport-attending observer could observe
the use of the rear stairs. No research needed, just
the use of some imagination.

Of course, that would add to the list of
suspects "anyone who has been to an airport".

Perhaps the stairs aren't such a big deal.

[377 20]

Good point Georger. I wonder what might have been left out?

You gotta hand it to the crew though, they made all the right decisions to maximize their chances of survival. In the end, although a credible threat of extreme violence (the bomb) was made, nobody got hurt except perhaps Cooper.

I also have to give the FBI credit for managing to gather recorded S/N cash and chutes on such short notice. I also credit them with good judgement in NOT storming the plane. I wish the same restaint had been shown at Waco TX. A lot of kids would be alive today had the same restraint been shown there.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations Georger! Post or PM a baby photo when you get a chance. There are few life events as joyous as the arrival of a healthy baby into a family that wants him/her.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

Since the stairs were used at airports...
if a person was at an airport...

...and was watching airplanes through a window.
Perhaps watching friends take off.

The random airport-attending observer could observe
the use of the rear stairs. No research needed, just
the use of some imagination.

Of course, that would add to the list of
suspects "anyone who has been to an airport".

Perhaps the stairs aren't such a big deal.

I was a plane nut and a skydiver in 71. I looked at every plane as a potential jumpship. I saw plenty of 727s with the stairs down. It may sound dumb, but never occured to me that they could be used for an inflight exit. I figured that there had to be all sorts of interlocks preventing their deployment in flight. I assumed also (incorrectly) that their deployment would give a very dangerous pitch down aerodynamic force.

There was an airshow act back then that had a pylon mounted on top of a DC 8 to which a stuntman was attached as sort of a "wing walker". He didn't really walk anwhere, it was just a low flyby and steep climbout with a guy on top of a big jet transport. We thought they should have sweetened the act with a zero G roll and have the guy jump off with a chute. I guess the chances of a tail strike were pretty high.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations
Your first grandchild? nachas!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Since the stairs were used at airports...
if a person was at an airport...

...and was watching airplanes through a window.
Perhaps watching friends take off.

The random airport-attending observer could observe
the use of the rear stairs. No research needed, just
the use of some imagination.

Of course, that would add to the list of
suspects "anyone who has been to an airport".

Perhaps the stairs aren't such a big deal.

I was a plane nut and a skydiver in 71. I looked at every plane as a potential jumpship. I saw plenty of 727s with the stairs down. It may sound dumb, but never occured to me that they could be used for an inflight exit. I figured that there had to be all sorts of interlocks preventing their deployment in flight. I assumed also (incorrectly) that their deployment would give a very dangerous pitch down aerodynamic force.

There was an airshow act back then that had a pylon mounted on top of a DC 8 to which a stuntman was attached as sort of a "wing walker". He didn't really walk anwhere, it was just a low flyby and steep climbout with a guy on top of a big jet transport. We thought they should have sweetened the act with a zero G roll and have the guy jump off with a chute. I guess the chances of a tail strike were pretty high.

377

Someone once told me that criminals have a mindset
that is always looking for an opportunity.

In a restaurant, instead of thinking, "What pleasant music and food", the criminal is thinking, "If I worked here, how could I steal money".

At a store, "How could I steal something?"
At an airport, "How could I hijack this plane for money?"

Recently, a private investigator told me that it is
easy to follow people because most people don't
constantly check to see if they are being followed.
The mindset is different.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Someone once told me that criminals have a mindset
that is always looking for an opportunity.

In a restaurant, instead of thinking, "What pleasant music and food", the criminal is thinking, "If I worked here, how could I steal money".

At a store, "How could I steal something?"
At an airport, "How could I hijack this plane for money?"

Recently, a private investigator told me that it is
easy to follow people because most people don't
constantly check to see if they are being followed.
The mindset is different.

Mindsets do set in for different groups, don't they?
(Ever looked out a plane window on a commercial flight to check for a clear landing area...?! Always take note of wind direction no matter where you are..?! etc!)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

GUYS - I need some help. Go to SUGARALPHA site there is a picture there posted called Uhaul. In that picture are good shots of front packs. In the past I have been sent all kinds of pictures of hardware and parachute things.

For some reason this photo stood out to me - the attachements at the front to hold on the front packs. Did anyone send me a pic of these items up-close? Does ANYONE know about when that Pic was made? I looked at so much hardware in the past that I just walked away from that part of my search - but I was just relaxing and up popped that photo...perhaps they are items shown to me before - but these stood out - looking like the item I held in my hand.

Anyone have a close up of those things. I had been told that the front chutes did not have D-rings. BUT if those ARE D-Rings then that is what I held in my hand. When we were told the front packs didn't have D-Rings we explored ways he could have secured the front pac to himself...what if he brought his OWN D-Rings - is that possible - ARE they something you can add while on a plane before you jump or are they sewn into the strapping?????? Was he prepared to attach something to himself other than the front pack, but used if for the Front Pack (the missing one). What would have been his intentions to used this hardware for other than attaching the front pac?

Was he planning on attaching something else to himself - No one has been able to figure out how he jumped holding all of that Stuff - the money bag, the brief case and the clothes he was wearing...they were never found - hence so did he jump with them rather than throw them out? What kind of durable folding container could have been in that briefcase? Could there have been a folded nylon bag or satchel with hooks on it - what was available at that time?

Not one sole answered me about the other stuff - regarding what he may have done in that bathroom and if the battery had a dual purpose...such as a communication device.

Please help me out here - that picture caused me to revisit all these old memories. My heart is coming out of my chest right now so I am going to lie down.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 20]

Rigger question: if Cooper brought carabiners (like rings that can be clipped onto something) with him, could he have securely clipped the reserve container onto the NB6 or NB 8, whatever the main harness/container actually was?

Carabiner: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.rei.com/media/763404.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rei.com/product/737864&usg=__BHds3YQOnhzgH6ojBkSbG0XWjlA=&h=440&w=440&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=mkCpLYUneWzOJM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarabiner%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN

Jo, does this look like the garage sale item?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

GUYS - I need some help. Go to SUGARALPHA site there is a picture there posted called Uhaul. In that picture are good shots of front packs. In the past I have been sent all kinds of pictures of hardware and parachute things.

can you post a link to the picture Jo?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[1969912 0]

This is the "UHaul" pic from the thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=108558;

This is the Sugar Alpha thread (same forum as this one, near the top):

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3443249;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Mrs. Weber (IIRC) described the piece of hardware as triangular, and I guessed that it might be the "male" portion of a Capewell, but look at the guy at the upper right in the pic. The attachment for his reserve looks triangular. Looks like it might be a fixed (sewn) attachment point for the reserve?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[377 20]

Hmmm, I see what you mean, it does look a lot more triangular than the reserve D rings I recall from back in the day.

Do you think a couple of carabiners would have solved Cooper's problem of how to attach the reserve to the main harness? Could you just clip to the webbing? I think you could but I am not a rigger. They could slide up and down the webbing but I think they wouold stay attached even in a jet jump.

Carabiners do look a bit triangular and they are not sewn in, you can carry them in your pocket to answer Jo's question.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Hmmm, I see what you mean, it does look a lot more triangular than the reserve D rings I recall from back in the day.

Do you think a couple of carabiners would have solved Cooper's problem of how to attach the reserve to the main harness? Could you just clip to the webbing? I think you could but I am not a rigger. They could slide up and down the webbing but I think they wouold stay attached even in a jet jump.

Carabiners do look a bit triangular and they are not sewn in, you can carry them in your pocket to answer Jo's question.

377

There are a few different shapes of carabiners. The pic you linked to is of one with an especially big "mouth" when the gate is open (pearbiner?). It also has room for a lot of stuff at its big end. I'm sure even a more common oval or D-shaped biner would fit around the front webbing (MLW?), and if it's clipped on below the chest strap (to limit upward movement of the container), it might work. Not sure if there is a way to clip the biner onto the reserve container though.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

We had a long discussion on the possibility of attaching the reserve onto the NB6 when I first posted. The lack of D-rings on the NB6 was a hinderance, but I (and others) thought that you could attach the clips from the reserve somewhere on the harness.

All you'd have to do is have a big enough carbiner to go around the main lift web and you could easily attach the reserve. Probably not securely enough to use the reserve parachute as a reserve, but well enough to secure the dummy reserve container as a carry bag.

None of us thought of Cooper having carbiners in the paper bag or in his pockets. A couple 'biners and a short length of webbing would have easily attached the briefcase, and a couple more would have attached the dummy reserve container and/or the money bag.

Of course, Tina never saw anything like this, she just saw Cooper trying to tie the money bag shut, but we still don't know what happened between her going up to the cockpit and Cooper jumping.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[377 20]

1969912 and Joe,

Good points about carabiners and the chest strap limiting upward travel. I am pretty sure this would have worked. My chest reserve clips could each attach to a carabiner and the carabiners could clip onto the main lift webbing. hmmm...

Snow is a climber, please chime in on hardware and who even knew about carabiners in 1971 besides climbers. Now carabiners (not climbing grade) are on keychains and kids backpacks, but it was a more obscure piece of hardware in 71.

Jo Weber, could it have been a carabiner that you sold at the garage sale?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

(Serious) Carabiners that are roughly "Triangular" shaped.

EDIT: And one that's "D" shaped.

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[nitrochute 2]

the nb6/nb8 harness does not have a normal type chest strap,like todays rigs(straight across the chest)but rather a piece of webbing that comes from the buckle(there is NO canopy release on an nb6/nb8 harness)at the shoulder then runs at a 45 degree downward angle to either a v ring or a quick ejector snap,then reverses direction and continues at a 45 degree downward angle the the main lift web near theleg strap.if i recall it then becomes one of the back straps. when both sides are hooked up it looks like an X across your chest.BUT all this is a moot point because the rig could have had a b4/b12 harness on it. only cossey would know for sure.

[nitrochute 2]

those are deep V rings, which are used on the navy NB6/NB8. HMMMMM pioneer used them as the attachment point for the reserve on the super pro
i cant scan a pic of them ,but they are on the paragear website # H425 triangle ring

[snowmman 3]

(this carabiner discussion seems so out there I don't know why I'm posting, but what the heck)

Come on.
You guys go into the weeds so quickly. You can't look at modern carabiner shapes and brainstorm about the shapes common in 1971.

You have to look at carabiner styles that were available/used in 1971.

By far, the most likely shape was the standard oval. Plenty big and would have easily clipped over even 2" webbing.

It's only in the last 20 years or so that a wider variety of shapes have become more available, more so in the last 10. (although some non-oval were available in 1971).

I'm not sure if even simple D-shapes were in use in 1971.

Now there are a lot of D shackles that screw on and would serve the trick.

There is one interesting thing to think about, though.

Cooper asked for a knapsack. What was his plan for carrying it? The other hijackers didn't seem to bring any gear with them to attach the money etc to themselves. Not sure why Cooper would be different. But he could have brought something for that? But maybe not.

Also, why would he be thinking he'd have to worry about D-rings for the reserve?

If he asked for chest packs, wouldn't he just be assume the back rigs would come with D-rings?

If he was worried about getting emergency rigs and brought carabiners or snaplinks, a carabiner wouldn't be the safest bet (they're weak across the gate, and the chaos of a jump might not guarantee loading in the one strong direction (lengthwise).

Cooper did have a knife? That could indicate outdoor or military, but just as likely mean nothing special. He was comfortable cutting cord and tieing knots?

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Cooper did have a knife? That could indicate outdoor or military, but just as likely mean nothing special. He was comfortable cutting cord and tieing knots?

Knives, cutting ropes, and tieing knots.
That narrows it down to... everyone.

So... failed Eagle Scout (that would explain the "grudge" remark ).

Or, serial killer at large. The car wash closed and
he needs some quick cash.

[1969912 0]

Quote

those are deep V rings, which are pretty much used on the navy NB6/NB8. HMMMMM pioneer used them as the attachment point for the reserve on the super pro
i cant scan a pic of them ,but they are on the paragear website # H425 triangle ring

http://www.paragear.com/templates/base_template.asp?group=245#H425

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

happythoughts said:

Quote

Knives, cutting ropes, and tieing knots.
That narrows it down to... everyone.

why so worried about "narrowing"?

Are you saying it doesn't exclude anyone? I think it does exclude some people.

Why are you looking for big things? there are none.

What you you have done, happythoughts, if the money arrived in the cloth bag? Would you have had a knife in your pocket? Would you have cut the chute lines and tied it around the money bag?

Would you have demanded the original knapsack request, or adjusted because you knew you were running out of time?

Would you have done what Cooper did or something different?

I guess I don't understand your comments. (the intent)

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Snow is a climber, please chime in on hardware and who even knew about carabiners in 1971 besides climbers. Now carabiners (not climbing grade) are on keychains and kids backpacks, but it was a more obscure piece of hardware in 71.

Yeah I would wonder about this too, add Snow's point about mainly oval ones being available there. Also ... sorry if the answer to this is lost in the mist of 8000+ posts, but would Cooper have known that there would be no D-rings brought with the rigs?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.