DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

My photos of the partial extension of the airstairs, for an in-flight 727, in the LIFE series of photos, and my question about whether the lower half slides out or folds down, made me realized I didn't understand the partial extension request made by Cooper.

So while we've reviewed this before, I'll just note it again since I was reading the FBI transcript again.

I've attached the documented exchange on the stair request from the FBI transcript from Sluggo's site
page 2 and 3
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Logs%2006-20-2008R.pdf

It's also interesting that in this report, the request for chutes were "chest-pack" and "back-pack" (not front-pack). I've raised questions about whether "front-pack" was a stewardess miscommunication.

Note it's odd that Cooper apparently engaged in dialog about partial stair extension. (page 3) While it's obvious that the stairs extend, for any passenger, the partial extension issue isn't as obvious?

This dialog about the stairs may have contributed to Rataczak's feeling about the amount of knowledge Cooper had.

[snowmman 3]

here's how you operate the airstairs from the outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg

(edit) But: maybe 377 can chime in, it looks more like md-88 stairs? there's no folding or lower bit? I'm still confused about whether there is something that folds or rolls out on any of these stairs. Maybe the answer is no.

It makes this next story sort of believable. It's at the same site as the last air stair story. I believe from the same flight engineer.

http://funnyairlinestories.com/stories/single_story.asp?id=140

"We had just been cleared onto the active for our flight from Mexico City to Dallas. I had made the PA advising the Flight Attendants to be seated for takeoff when the call bell goes off. I answered the interphone, and a Flight Attendant told me to taxi clear of the runway and depressurize the aircraft. I questioned her, but she said: “Just do it.” As we were leaving the runway, I noticed the Aft Entry Door light come on and go out. She called to say everything is okay now, and she will explain later. We were dying of curiousity. She finally come up to explain. Turns out that a passenger was late arriving at the gate. Braniff didn’t want to lose any revenue but also didn’t want the delay, so someone decided to run this guy up the airstairs. Security was not a major issue back then, so the agent run this guy out on the ramp and to the back of our airplane. Of course, nobody advised the crew what was going on. The Agent lowered the airstairs and told the guy to get onboard. He scoots up the airstairs, and the agent raises the stairs. Unfortunately, the agent hadn’t explained how to get in the aircraft. By this time it is dark, the only illumination coming from the small porthole in the Aft Entry Door. The passenger finally finds the door handle but can’t open the door since by now the engines are all running and we are pressurized. He bangs on the door but nobody hears him since the F/As are in the cabin taking drink orders. He starts to get scared and starts to scream. Then just before takeoff, the aft F/As sit down and hear something. One of them finally turns around and sees a panic-stricken face in the porthole. Not sure which would have gotten him, the noise level, the cold or the hypoxia."

[377 20]

How would Cooper know about partial stair extension? Would this be more indicative of a Boeing rather than Air America connection?

Rat thought Cooper's orders indicated that he knew a lot about the 727 and flying. I'd put more credence in Rat's real time on site conclusion of 727 competence than Ckret's conclusion of the opposite.

This partial stair thing is potentially significant. Leave it to Snow to extract signal from the noise. Were the stairs removed in the Air America S/L drops?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nitrochute 2]

when cooper opened up the chest pack he would have left fingerprints on the ripcord handle. did the fbi recover the ripcord from the aircraft or did cooper take it with him?

[377 20]

Quote

here's how you operate the airstairs from the outside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg

(edit) But: maybe 377 can chime in, it looks more like md-88 stairs? there's no folding or lower bit? I'm still confused about whether there is something that folds or rolls out on any of these stairs. Maybe the answer is no.

Looks like a 727 not an MD 88 Snow as you can see the center engine exhaust nozzle. The winglets initially puzzled me as no 727s were made with them, but there are aftermarket FAA approved winglet mods. Not sure about the apparent lack of a folding or lower section on the stairs.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

377 - you mentioned USAID. It seems to have been "helping" the CIA with cover too - I'd seen mention of similar before, and just come across this example:

Quote

Earl E. Jones was CIA Air Operations, 1964-66 (official title: deputy chief, Air Support Branch, USAID

I wonder if this adds US AID workers in Nam/SE Asia as ones who might also have knowledge of the 727 airdrops?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

This partial stair thing is potentially significant. Leave it to Snow to extract signal from the noise. Were the stairs removed in the Air America S/L drops?

377

I think it was Snow pointed out they were and a ramp was in place. I picked up on that because it would be consistent with Cooper knowing the plane could be flown with the aft door open, but not knowing exactly how to lower the stairs.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

when cooper opened up the chest pack he would have left fingerprints on the ripcord handle. did the fbi recover the ripcord from the aircraft or did cooper take it with him?

Great point - if he opened it using the ripcord. But if he cut the container open to get the chute out, that might pin him as a non-jumper?
I don't recall seeing anything at all about the ripcord handle.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

377 - you mentioned USAID. It seems to have been "helping" the CIA with cover too - I'd seen mention of similar before, and just come across this example:

Quote

Earl E. Jones was CIA Air Operations, 1964-66 (official title: deputy chief, Air Support Branch, USAID

I wonder if this adds US AID workers in Nam/SE Asia as ones who might also have knowledge of the 727 airdrops?

377

presumably only the ones who were actually CIA and just using USAID as cover?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

How would Cooper know about partial stair extension? Would this be more indicative of a Boeing rather than Air America connection?

Rat thought Cooper's orders indicated that he knew a lot about the 727 and flying. I'd put more credence in Rat's real time on site conclusion of 727 competence than Ckret's conclusion of the opposite.

This partial stair thing is potentially significant. Leave it to Snow to extract signal from the noise. Were the stairs removed in the Air America S/L drops?

377

It may be as simple as whether he could stand on
and bail from partially extended stairs - would they
support weight and extend far enough away from
the aircraft... the Transcript has extensive exchanges
on the subject ...

G.

[nitrochute 2]

if he just cut the container open, it would have been of no use to him to carry the money.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

when cooper opened up the chest pack he would have left fingerprints on the ripcord handle. did the fbi recover the ripcord from the aircraft or did cooper take it with him?

Great point - if he opened it using the ripcord. But if he cut the container open to get the chute out, that might pin him as a non-jumper?
I don't recall seeing anything at all about the ripcord handle.

the ripcord handle was recovered. Ckret confirmed and I later provided snaps from a video that showed it. It was a metal cloverleaf, consistent with what you expect for that reserve that was opened.

(edit) I think there were enough snaps from videos to say that the reserve container doesn't appear to have been cut in any way.

Also, georger was going on about weapons. Cooper likely used his own knife, rather than cutlery to cut the lines. There are a number of cases of hijacker threatening stewardess with knife, I remember one case where the knife was held to her throat. Georger might say Cooper wouldn't have advanced to such violence, but who knows. That was one of the advantages of having a stew close by? maybe?

[snowmman 3]

Correction: I'm looking at more pics of 727 stairs and maybe I was mixing up the md-88 and 727 stairs too much. the 727 stairs on sluggo's site do appear to have the vertical arm near the bottom.

Quote

Looks like a 727 not an MD 88 Snow as you can see the center engine exhaust nozzle. The winglets initially puzzled me as no 727s were made with them, but there are aftermarket FAA approved winglet mods. Not sure about the apparent lack of a folding or lower section on the stairs.

377

Okay I think the guy who posted that video may have been connected to that 727 being used for freight.
Same guy posted this video of him apparently standing in the cockpit videoing during a landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68_ejEbYgXA

Okay his blog has more:
http://dayinthelifeoftrent.blogspot.com/2009/01/my-year-of-flying-boeing-727.html

"Way back in 2006 I had the adventure of flying as a First Officer on board a Boeing 727. The airline was a small cargo outfit out of Miami called Amerijet. The experience was quite an eye opener for me. It was real grit flying to some very exotic places in Central and South America. Most 727 operators hire new flight crew as Flight Engineers, but not Amerijet. Amerijet, due to pilot attrition, was looking at new hires as potential Captains a year down the line. The Flight Engineers were basically Mechanics first and Flight Engineers second. We were hired after attending a Pilots Job Fair at Aeroservice in Miami."

"Loading cargo was the duty of the First Officers and it was a critical task. FE's were busy with fuel loading and planning, while the Captain was busy in the Flight Room and shooting the shit."


yeah what's odd is I don't see the fabric sidewalls on the stairs, which was characteristic of 727 stairs, and I thought the 727 stairs extended beyond the vertical hydaulic arm, whereas the video seems to have the stairs ending at the hydraulic arm. (edit) I'm revisiting this thought right now.

Even the md-88 stairs I posted extended beyond the vertical hydraulic arms a bit.

[377 20]

I think AmeriJet might be the same company that flew skydivers in their 727 at WFFC.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Here's a pic of a 727 rear air stair from 1967 with no fabric sidewall on the stairs.

I'm thinking I was all confused about the stairs. The vertical hydraulic arm is placed differently on the md-88 vs the 727 and I had some mistakenly labelled photos.

So partial deployment of the stairs would only refer to their angle...there is no secondary folding or sliding parts or anything like that.

I included the best of the Braniff series showing "partial deployment" in flight. (unknown speed. How did they drop? just gravity?)

[snowmman 3]

okay, replaying some stuff, just because I confused the situation a bit, and wanted to clean things up.

two pics.
one from the inside, which we've seen before when we were exploring the idea of hiding spaces. It shows the placement of the vertical hydraulic arm, and when combined with all the previous pics, confirms there's no need for any secondary folding stairs or anything. There's the top stairs which don't move, and the stairs on the moving part. That's it.

And the vertical arms are near the bottom.

And surprisingly, the aluminum that forms the outer skin does impact the ground when the stairs are lowered? That's odd. I would think it would dent, etc.

Second pic is the stairs in use...you can see fabric sidewalls on this one. This one is nice cause someone is on the stairs going down.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

This partial stair thing is potentially significant. Leave it to Snow to extract signal from the noise. Were the stairs removed in the Air America S/L drops?

377

maybe it means nothing. It's interesting that the word "partially" is used. Who first used the word. Cooper? The pilot? How did it get in the FBI transcript.

It's interesting that the word "partially" is underlined on the page (pen or pencil). Someone reading the transcript afterward it was typed/copied, and thought "partially" was interesting too, and underlined it.

Maybe it all means nothing. Too bad we don't have the exact Cooper <-> cabin exchange on this.

[snowmman 3]

The Cooper Vane is actually a pretty piss-poor security mechanism, and easily defeated.

Here's how.

1) Open the aft door and climb up the closed stairs until you're about at the position of the external vane.

2) Clip a harness you're wearing to both side rails. The stairs will drop once you cut the Cooper Vane and you don't want to fly off.

3) a battery operated sawzall (milwaukee 18v or equiv.) with as long a blade as you can get, cut into the seam between stairs and fuselage. Eventually you'll hit the Cooper vane and cut through it.
Some initial planning should get you the position pretty close, even though you can't see the vane.

4) The stairs should drop after you cut thru the vane.


You don't need to bring the sawzall with you. You ask for it along with the chutes and money.


(edit) Or simpler:
Make them take off with the stairs just slightly opened. As long as the stairs aren't fully closed, the cooper vane can't do anything.

(edit) Or:
slap some duct tape over it, keeping it from turning. The area of the vane is relatively small, so that even at 200 mph, duct tape should be sufficient to keep it from turning.

[georger 197]

Also, georger was going on about weapons. Cooper likely used his own knife, rather than cutlery to cut the lines. There are a number of cases of hijacker threatening stewardess with knife, I remember one case where the knife was held to her throat. Georger might say Cooper wouldn't have advanced to such violence, but who knows. That was one of the advantages of having a stew close by? maybe?

[georger 197]

Quote

The Cooper Vane is actually a pretty piss-poor security mechanism, and easily defeated.

Here's how.

1) Open the aft door and climb up the closed stairs until you're about at the position of the external vane.

2) Clip a harness you're wearing to both side rails. The stairs will drop once you cut the Cooper Vane and you don't want to fly off.

3) a battery operated sawzall (milwaukee 18v or equiv.) with as long a blade as you can get, cut into the seam between stairs and fuselage. Eventually you'll hit the Cooper vane and cut through it.
Some initial planning should get you the position pretty close, even though you can't see the vane.

4) The stairs should drop after you cut thru the vane.


You don't need to bring the sawzall with you. You ask for it along with the chutes and money.


(edit) Or simpler:
Make them take off with the stairs just slightly opened. As long as the stairs aren't fully closed, the cooper vane can't do anything.

(edit) Or:
slap some duct tape over it, keeping it from turning. The area of the vane is relatively small, so that even at 200 mph, duct tape should be sufficient to keep it from turning.

Duc tape might be seen: you can just slap a wad of fast plumber's epoxy putty on it (in the joint) and it wont go anywhere...

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

All,

Because of my web site I get a lot of e-mails from kooks and weirdoes. But, every once in a while I get a message from someone who has their head screwed on right. This weekend I got a message about the Flight Log Transcript and why they were squawking 3100 from a former Air Force Navigator. I told him I was going to publish his information on the site (when I get time). He replied with the following, which I thought georger and snowmman should have a go at. Here’s the e-mail:

From: REDACTED
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:23 PM
To: sluggo
Subject: Time Line credit and other BS


Hello Sluggo,

Thanks for the rapier speed response and consideration of my email. As far as ‘credit’, I think Friend of Site would be more than anyone could expect. I admire your open source approach and would like to contribute in that spirit. Using data which has a source reference free of individual recognition seems to be in the best alignment. However, my ego appreciates your generous offer!

Understand the difficulties of working off site, new man in a strange land. Yet the technology of the internet, even with its porosity is a marvel. Remember sending off for something from exotic Battle Creek, MI sparked by a box of Kellogg’s cereal? Five to six weeks later you would receive that submarine or plastic air boat. Guess I’m still accustomed to that time frame in regards to response time.

I have read some (half) of the Dropzone postings on the subject and find it to contain the expected mix of contributions, motivations and head scratchers. For such a complex subject; there appear many disciplines shoehorned under the same chapter. One being, Cooper’s knowledge of aviation, aircraft systems and parachutes (skydiving) which should be subdivided into at least three distinct categories: sport, utility and emergency procedures. As a former aircrew, my ONLY view of a parachute belongs in the last classification. Simply because I can don a chute like I’ve done it a thousand before (which I have) does not equate to any expertise in its use [Emphasis Sluggo’s].

Here is an analogy free of any prejudices or emotive responses associated with Flt 305. Growing up around cattle would unknowingly facilitate me with knowledge about situation control. The cattle we raised were of a polled variety. This was a form of selective breeding which resulted in the lack of horns; one less thing to worry about (getting gored). We combined that trait with a barbed wire fence to limit the possibility of their escape and kept them penned with minimal effort or fear of retaliation. Sounds like I know a fair amount about Heifers doesn’t it?

What does this have to do with an environment in a 727? If one is in possession of intimate knowledge of aircraft systems with the desire of eliminating risk, I would have included several small actions in my plan.

I would have one of the flight attendants retrieve the crash ax (Attach 1, 2) from the cockpit and return it to me in a bag to keep from alarming passengers and to limit it being used on me. In this case, removing their ‘horns’.

Additionally, I would require the cockpit escape rope(s) removal (Attach 3) and have it delivered in the same fashion. This would keep the crew in the cockpit while making escape more difficult. This would act as a sort of human ‘barbed wire.’

Is this an extreme example…yes. Yet I feel it offers an example of more intimate knowledge combined with what an individual may consider in regard to self preservation. If numerous discussions separating the virtues of 26 versus 28 foot canopies are germane to the subject, why not any mention of ubiquitous aircraft weapons or escape systems? Anyone who has been a crew member in a commercial aircraft is at least aware of the existence of the ax and ropes.

This no doubt, belongs in the Flt 305 ‘attic’ of research materials. However I feel this may serve as a small example which may mitigate Cooper’s system expertise and open another path of analysis to this case.

If not, and keeping with the initial analogy; it may just all be a bunch of BS on my part.

Sincerely,

Name REDACTED

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Name REDACTED,

YOU'RE A Bleeping GENIUS!

The psychology of Cooper's actions and how he controlled his environment and the perception that he was VERY knowledgeable about the B-727 is more down "georger's" alley than mine. But you just brought up some points that I think no one else has considered.

Since my time is so limited right now and I think georger and snowmman could use this insight, I'm going to post your message (with all personal info REDACTED). Watch the thread and see if anyone runs with it.

I hope you don't mind me posting it, but this stuff is "just too good" to languish around until I can act on it (considering my work schedule).

Thanks,

Sluggo

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I think this guy’s onto something. What do you guys think?

Thanx,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Duc tape might be seen: you can just slap a wad of fast plumber's epoxy putty on it (in the joint) and it wont go anywhere...

right. although if you did it after you landed for the ransom, it wouldn't matter.

There are some interesting papers that have analyzed why hijackings dropped dramatically after '72. Although they still happen. I've been reading about some hijackings in China in recent times. Historically, we've not had much info out of China.

I think once they started shooting the hijackers, that changed things. Well that and the widespread use of metal detectors. (guns were more typical than fake bombs)


Hey 377: have you seen the youtube video on 727's carrying cargo landing on dirt strips in africa. Pretty amazing. True cowboy bush pilots. I'll provide the link if you've not seen it. Some cases look like they were delivering fuel.

Evidently during some war or the other, they would buy 727s for a million or so, and make it back in like a month. Pilots got paid by the hour and just flew nonstop. Like no rules.

727, vfr onto a dirt strip. Sure they were designed for it, but doing it is another thing.

[snowmman 3]

sluggo,

well paul cini was whacked with the ax just a couple weeks before.

I think there's a supposition of how you control people in that post.

It's not necessary to remove any of their weapons or tools. In fact, if you convince people you are in control, even though they have some weapons, it's even better, because they think you have more.

Do you guys ever play texas hold-em? I think poker is the main game to think about here.

In a hostage situation where snipers are trained on your head, there is no need to convince the snipers to give up their weapons. The key is to convince everyone that shooting you in the head would lead to a worse outcome than just you dying.

There were at least one situation where a passenger shot the hijacker.

So I think it's a crap shoot believing you could remove all weapons that are a threat to you.

Not alarming anybody was probably the smartest thing cooper did.

SO: I would just say, Cooper achieved the goals you're implying (but with a different strategy? Mutual Assured Destruction?) without forcing the other guy to give up his weapons.

Hey don't they teach you this stuff in Nuke class?
North Korea, and Iran are doing a Cooper on the US as we speak. And they will succeed for the same reason Cooper did.

(edit) you could look thru all the other hijacks after Cooper. I only remember one case where the crew left and that's how the hijacker got caught. I think there was one where a hand gun was thrown up to the cockpit. Etc. A lot of randomness. In any case, there's no evidence that says many other hijacks needed to secure the rope and ax because they played a part in foiling the hijack.

I will allow that there are individual cases though.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Simply because I can don a chute like I’ve done it a thousand before (which I have) does not equate to any expertise in its use.

We've spoken at length about the possibility Cooper had exposure to parachutes this way, but i don't think anyone has raised this particular point before - and it is a good one.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

All,

Because of my web site I get a lot of e-mails from kooks and weirdoes. But, every once in a while I get a message from someone who has their head screwed on right. This weekend I got a message about the Flight Log Transcript and why they were squawking 3100 from a former Air Force Navigator. I told him I was going to publish his information on the site (when I get time). He replied with the following, which I thought georger and snowmman should have a go at. Here’s the e-mail:

From: REDACTED
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:23 PM
To: sluggo
Subject: Time Line credit and other BS


Hello Sluggo,

Thanks for the rapier speed response and consideration of my email. As far as ‘credit’, I think Friend of Site would be more than anyone could expect. I admire your open source approach and would like to contribute in that spirit. Using data which has a source reference free of individual recognition seems to be in the best alignment. However, my ego appreciates your generous offer!

Understand the difficulties of working off site, new man in a strange land. Yet the technology of the internet, even with its porosity is a marvel. Remember sending off for something from exotic Battle Creek, MI sparked by a box of Kellogg’s cereal? Five to six weeks later you would receive that submarine or plastic air boat. Guess I’m still accustomed to that time frame in regards to response time.

I have read some (half) of the Dropzone postings on the subject and find it to contain the expected mix of contributions, motivations and head scratchers. For such a complex subject; there appear many disciplines shoehorned under the same chapter. One being, Cooper’s knowledge of aviation, aircraft systems and parachutes (skydiving) which should be subdivided into at least three distinct categories: sport, utility and emergency procedures. As a former aircrew, my ONLY view of a parachute belongs in the last classification. Simply because I can don a chute like I’ve done it a thousand before (which I have) does not equate to any expertise in its use [Emphasis Sluggo’s].

Here is an analogy free of any prejudices or emotive responses associated with Flt 305. Growing up around cattle would unknowingly facilitate me with knowledge about situation control. The cattle we raised were of a polled variety. This was a form of selective breeding which resulted in the lack of horns; one less thing to worry about (getting gored). We combined that trait with a barbed wire fence to limit the possibility of their escape and kept them penned with minimal effort or fear of retaliation. Sounds like I know a fair amount about Heifers doesn’t it?

What does this have to do with an environment in a 727? If one is in possession of intimate knowledge of aircraft systems with the desire of eliminating risk, I would have included several small actions in my plan.

I would have one of the flight attendants retrieve the crash ax (Attach 1, 2) from the cockpit and return it to me in a bag to keep from alarming passengers and to limit it being used on me. In this case, removing their ‘horns’.

Additionally, I would require the cockpit escape rope(s) removal (Attach 3) and have it delivered in the same fashion. This would keep the crew in the cockpit while making escape more difficult. This would act as a sort of human ‘barbed wire.’

Is this an extreme example…yes. Yet I feel it offers an example of more intimate knowledge combined with what an individual may consider in regard to self preservation. If numerous discussions separating the virtues of 26 versus 28 foot canopies are germane to the subject, why not any mention of ubiquitous aircraft weapons or escape systems? Anyone who has been a crew member in a commercial aircraft is at least aware of the existence of the ax and ropes.

This no doubt, belongs in the Flt 305 ‘attic’ of research materials. However I feel this may serve as a small example which may mitigate Cooper’s system expertise and open another path of analysis to this case.

If not, and keeping with the initial analogy; it may just all be a bunch of BS on my part.

Sincerely,

Name REDACTED

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Name REDACTED,

YOU'RE A Bleeping GENIUS!

The psychology of Cooper's actions and how he controlled his environment and the perception that he was VERY knowledgeable about the B-727 is more down "georger's" alley than mine. But you just brought up some points that I think no one else has considered.

Since my time is so limited right now and I think georger and snowmman could use this insight, I'm going to post your message (with all personal info REDACTED). Watch the thread and see if anyone runs with it.

I hope you don't mind me posting it, but this stuff is "just too good" to languish around until I can act on it (considering my work schedule).

Thanks,

Sluggo

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I think this guy’s onto something. What do you guys think?

Thanx,

Sluggo_Monster

He raises excellent points.. Until this I didnt even know these items existed. (The behavioral line
just sloped back toward Ckret's baseline).

Excellent! MORE MORE! TELL HIM TO JOIN US HERE.