DB Cooper

[phildthedildo 0]

ok so who was this fourth unamed adult??? ol db hisself??

[377 20]

Quote

What does "squiding" mean?

Jo,

Squidding refers to the appearance of the round canopies in the 727 film before they are fully inflated, looking like a squid with a bulbous head (partially inflated canopy) and tentacles (suspension lines) trailing.

Round canopies deployed at high speeds apparently have a natural aerodynamic characteristic that slows inflation. This was really good news for Cooper.

As I said before, if he pulled above approx 800 ft AGL he was very likely OK, suspended under an open intact canopy without major injuries, but as Wolfriver Joe pointed out, landing is a whole different matter and fraught with peril under the conditions Cooper faced that night.

I previously thought that the opening shock in an unsleeved round deployed right out of a 727 would be HUGE, but obviously I was wrong. I try to keep an open mind and don't mind being wrong. You learn that way.

If Cooper knew about the Air America jumps then his choice of the military bailout rig over the sport rig was not at all irrational. A sleeve (which slows canopy inflation) wasn't really needed for a safe jump. I thought I knew a lot about round canopies, but seeing that 727 film showed me that I still had a lot to learn.

A fatal river landing would be consistent with the evidence we have so far, but we sure cannot rule out a safe landing. I like to think Cooper landed safely.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quote

He does caveat it with "deployment diapers" and I guess everything says there was no such thing on Cooper's rig.

I am 99% sure the bailout rig did not have a diaper. They showed up on round reserves late in the game and reduced inversion malfunctions. Riggers can chime in here.

The C9 is an incredibly strong canopy having continuous suspension lines reinforcing the entire canopy unlike other round canopies where they are just attached to the skirt by stitching and end there.

C9s were desiged for jet ejections. They are not indestructable, but they are very very robust. My old C9 had a high descent rate (porous ripstop nylon material) but I never worried about its strength. If you limited UV exposure they were like the Rock of Gibralter.

Now that we know about squidding and have a rough idea of the NWA 727 exit speed I think the chances of a malfunction or major canopy damage are very very low.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

ok so who was this fourth unamed adult??? ol db hisself??

The Unamed adult was whoever Harold and Pat were
staying with at the time, who helped separate and dry
the money when Harold, Pat, Brian, Crystal, and Denise got back from Tina Bar.

Himmlesbach did not need to rush to a press conference on Feb12th, before all of the facts were
in and all of the principles had been interviewed.

The reason this story is important is, it directly
affects the nature of the money found at Tina Bar
and its history in terms of Cooper bailing and landing.
We already now there was more, perhaps much more,
than $5800 at Tina Bar.

If Crystal Ingram's account is true, that affects the
whole nature and history of the money found at
Tina Bar. (That is a issue far greater than Brian
Ingram and his award).

G.

[snowmman 3]

There were a couple articles that quickly printed the story as kids digging in the sand, finding the money. Attached is the 2/17/80 article in the NYT. I always assumed they had gotten it wrong. But now from what Georger is saying maybe they were right? Who knows who they talked to.

It's hard to believe that Crystal would go into so much detail about something that wasn't true? Was she just supporting her daughter Denise, who made up the story? In another article, Denise evidently tells the story on her own to a reporter. I've posted that before.

I guess Crystal didn't really see it, so is relying on what Denise said?

This 2/17/80 article has the sticks poking in the mud angle.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

He does caveat it with "deployment diapers" and I guess everything says there was no such thing on Cooper's rig.

I am 99% sure the bailout rig did not have a diaper. They showed up on round reserves late in the game and reduced inversion malfunctions. Riggers can chime in here.

The C9 is an incredibly strong canopy having continuous suspension lines reinforcing the entire canopy unlike other round canopies where they are just attached to the skirt by stitching and end there.

C9s were desiged for jet ejections. They are not indestructable, but they are very very robust. My old C9 had a high descent rate (porous ripstop nylon material) but I never worried about its strength. If you limited UV exposure they were like the Rock of Gibralter.

Now that we know about squidding and have a rough idea of the NWA 727 exit speed I think the chances of a malfunction or major canopy damage are very very low.

377

I've read all of the NickDG comments and the squidding stuff, but I've also seen these mentions of the permeability having an effect on opening shock. (there's a program OSCALC that's interesting that was done under Army-Natick labs contract). There's a lot of research online as mil reports that was done in the '40s and '50s on rounds.

In any case per
http://books.google.com/books?id=2PopFBjLZV8C&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=c9+canopy+permeability+cfm&source=web&ots=lcpSzavX7T&sig=C5tQMM2WniTYKiI-g9enD43sdXg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

the C-9 is made from MIL-C-7020 Type 1 ripstop nylon fabric?
breaking strength 42 lbs/in. minimum
20% elongation in both directions, minimum
80-120 CFM air permeability

interesting. seems more like a sieve compared to the fabrics used in modern canopies?

[snowmman 3]

Quote

The Unamed adult was whoever Harold and Pat were
staying with at the time, who helped separate and dry
the money when Harold, Pat, Brian, Crystal, and Denise got back from Tina Bar.

okay, well obviously I've thrown out Harold's brother as a possibility, as well as raising questions about what address they were really staying at.

If Harold was staying with someone in WA, the brother makes the most sense. I was trying to put together the entire Ingram family at one time...I think some of them were still in OK in '71? There was also something down in CA cause Harold/Patricia went down there at some point after the money find before returning to OK...there was a newspaper article with the town and a picture of Patricia and Brian.


Also, if the brother was divorced from Crystal, it might make sense that he didn't go to Tena Bar.

I haven't looked at this since May, so maybe need to dig again.

[snowmman 3]

just another random video. This is a modern one.
Nothing for you guys who know stuff, but interesting for me. Showing C-9 deployments.

It starts out looking bogus, cause of it's bogus title and music
first has some jet ejection examples
but then there's apparently a bunch of recent military test jumps of C-9's, the orange/white/sage versions, just out of a Cessna sized plane.

A lot are right out of the plane. It seems like the jumpers are trying different positions on the pull...a number are not belly to the ground.

There's one or two where the C-9 doesn't seem to deploy immediately correctly. Interesting to watch.
The camera guy is generally right next to the guy deploying the C-9.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCH6PAlNMoA

(edit) there's one deployment where the guy turns his head around to look, and the fabric looks like crap, and he does things with his body position quickly, and the deployment is then good. Maybe people can comment. Makes me wonder about deployment reliability, even at lower speeds.

[georger 197]

Quote

There were a couple articles that quickly printed the story as kids digging in the sand, finding the money. Attached is the 2/17/80 article in the NYT. I always assumed they had gotten it wrong. But now from what Georger is saying maybe they were right? Who knows who they talked to.

It's hard to believe that Crystal would go into so much detail about something that wasn't true? Was she just supporting her daughter Denise, who made up the story? In an other article, Denise evidently tells the story on her own to a reporter. I've posted that before.

I guess Crystal didn't really see it, so is relying on what Denise said?

This 2/17/80 article has the sticks poking in the mud angle.

Reply> This I do know. The FBI interviewed Crystal
three times after she went public on Feb 13th
(the morning after the Ingram-Himmelsbach press conference on the 12th).

They interviewed Crystal on the 13th, the 14th
the day she brought more bills in, and later on
the 19th.

If Crystal had not called Himmelsbach she very
likely would have been bypassed completely.
Himmeslbach had already rushed and given
his press conference. Crystal gained nothing by
any of this and it only further isolated her and her daughter from the rest of the Ingrams (Harold, Patricia, David...). Patricia and Harold were very
angry because it attacked their credibility.

Apparently, things moved so quickly on the 12th
that Harold/Patricia did not communicate with
Crystal before the press conference at 3:00pm
was already happening. Harold & Patricia had gone
in and turned in their money to H in the morning,
and H then scheduled (or already had scheduled!)
a press conference for 3:00pm.

It seems strange Harold and Pat wouldnot have called Crystal and told her what was going on ... ?

It appears Crystal was blinded sided. The next thing
she knows a press conference has been held, Harold
and Pat and Brian are famous and have given their
story, and she (Crystal) and Denise have been left
out completely - not even talked to.

Who knows what transpired between Crystal and
Harold and Pat the evening of the 12th. But, Crystal
goes public first thing the next morning and winds
up talking to Himmelsbach ... with Harold and
Patricia suddenly silent.

Crystal meets with Harold and Pat the evening of
the 13th and gets their extra bills and then meets with 'H' the next morning (14th) and turns over
the money to 'H' and is interviewed.

One thing I have not mentioned is these four bills
turned in by Crystal were sent in for analysis and
became the basis for a report about the nature
of the money found at Tina Bar.

I believe, that things moved so quickly on the 12th
with the focus on Harold and Patricia, that Crystal
was bypassed. (Why Tosaw would take Harold
and Patricia's side later, only Tosaw can answer).

The money was wet when found. A limp stack of
mushed together bills. If the money was just off
the shoreline that condition is explainable - if the
money was further up the bank the wetness is
less explainable, potentially.

Crystal's story seems totally consistent. Harold
and Patricia's story seems less consistent and
more tainted by greed.

But, we all know there was more money on the
bar than $5800. The question is how much more.

Let me just drop this for discussion.

PS* BTW, I have not read anything by Denise
Ingram, or an interview with her about any of
this.... I would like to if there is something out
there?

Georger

[snowmman 3]

Yes the story of sand dry enough to brush away with Brian's hand, yet bundles that are soggy, may be slightly inconsistent.

Pictures of Tena Bar tend to show flat black sand. The dig photos do show dry loose sand, so the sand must dry out if exposed for enough time. Not clear how long a bundle of money would take to dry out in drying sand.

Quote

One thing I have not mentioned is these four bills
turned in by Crystal were sent in for analysis and
became the basis for a report about the nature
of the money found at Tina Bar.

Yeah it's interesting if they were "representative" or not. From what we've seen, the analysis should have covered top/bottom/middle bills. The top and bottom would be most important.

What I don't understand:

If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult.

And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers.

Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work.

Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity?

[snowmman 3]

I've posted this before. There's not much, but apparently these are quotes from Denise, the little girl.


(quote)
"I thought it was play money," said Denise Ingram, 5, of Vancouver Wash., in an interview after the FBI disclosed that the money was from the Cooper hijacking. She said she and her cousin, Brian Ingram, 8, "both found it. It was buried in the sand. I gave it to Brian, so he could hand it to my aunt Pat."

The child said she was on a family outing at a popular fishing sand bar for several Ingram relatives and their children.
(endquote)

The articles give the spelling of the mother's name as "Christal" ..also that she was 25 years old.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

What I don't understand:

If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult.

And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers.

Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work.

Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity?

The soggy separation question i agree sounds suspect.

But maybe you are becoming like... er, someone else who reads too much into some stuff. The find was a good number of years after Cooper, no reason they would have immediately thought of him. They may well have been mulling over what to do with it - realizing there was a good chance it was illegally obtained, because huge sums of money don't normally get deposited in a riverbank rather than a real bank, but they might have thought it could have been a bank robbery, or drug money, or or or.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

Yes the story of sand dry enough to brush away with Brian's hand, yet bundles that are soggy, may be slightly inconsistent.

Pictures of Tena Bar tend to show flat black sand. The dig photos do show dry loose sand, so the sand must dry out if exposed for enough time. Not clear how long a bundle of money would take to dry out in drying sand.

Quote

One thing I have not mentioned is these four bills
turned in by Crystal were sent in for analysis and
became the basis for a report about the nature
of the money found at Tina Bar.

Yeah it's interesting if they were "representative" or not. From what we've seen, the analysis should have covered top/bottom/middle bills. The top and bottom would be most important.

What I don't understand:

If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult.

And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers.

Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work.

Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity?

I have wondered the very same thoughts -

Souveniers of what? When did they decide to keep
"souveniers", the evening of the 10th? More likely
the evening of the 11th after the Cooper connection
had been made and before any money is turned in. If that is the case then they all are culpable
Crystal included.

And that is interesting because why should Crystal
get anything unless it is a joint find? If it was the
evening of the 11th then they have tocome back
together and discuss this, to dole out dividends.

But things definately change beteen the Ingrams
by the morning of the 13th, after the press conference the 12th. Crystal is now willing to go
out on her own and turn in her own "souveniers"
and tell an independent story that potentially
can have Harold and Patricia in trouble.

What if Crystal had stayed silent? What then?
There is nothing to suggest hat Harold and Patricia
would have changed their story or confessed to
not turning in all the money.

I dont have any evidence the FBI talked to Harold
or Patricia after the 13th! (Press people tried to
but were turned away).

There is no evidence (I know of) that Harold or
Patricia did anything to change their story after
the 13th until finally on the 20th Patricia surfaced
and contacted several media people iquiring if
they knew anything about a "reward" the FBI was
going to give to Brian!

She then called the FBI and asked them if Brian
was going to get an award and is told "no". She
then is coy and asks if Crystal Ingram has made
contact with the FBI and is told "yes!". (She
already knows the answer!) She moves on and asks
if Crystal turned in more money (as if checking up
on Crystal!), and is told "yes". She then offers an
explaination saying they kept the extra money by
mistake, as "souveniers" the Ingrams thought
nobody would care about . . . ". (Its total BS on
Patrica's part).

Again, there appears to be no evidence the FBI
had made any attempt to talk to the Harold or
Pat after Crystal surfaced ... even after the glorious
press confernence debut. (30 minutes of fame
and then dropped like a rock).

And by all accounts, the FBI dropped the whole
thing at that point.

As for the bills, I think even a forensic specialist
would have had difficulty separating the bills, in a
lab. Techniques should have been used. You can
only imagine what must have gone on on the
kitchen table. There is also no mention of the
Ingrams turning in fragments per se. The Ingrams
must still have them even after the Court settlement.

And what did the FBI do to separate bills once it
had the bundles?

The auction people are still separating fragments
from the wad of bills Brian gave to them!

What has the insurance company done with their
bills and what analysis, if any, have they performed.

Lots of still unanswered qustions -

One thing I can say: Its too bad they didnt bring the Smithsonian into this. This might have gone a
different better direction -

(edit) and if you add up all of the fragments in
diffrent places, including those recovered during
the excavation, how much money was there at Tina
Bar? More than any $5800.

Georger

[377 20]

Quote

the C-9 is made from MIL-C-7020 Type 1 ripstop nylon fabric?
breaking strength 42 lbs/in. minimum
20% elongation in both directions, minimum
80-120 CFM air permeability

interesting. seems more like a sieve compared to the fabrics used in modern canopies?

When NEW they were like sieves. Put a few hundred jumps on them and you could seine fish with them. My tired old C9 gave me REALLY hard landings, but it built my character and sure as hell taught me how to do a good PLF every time. If I didn't do a good PLF, the structural integrity of my bones would have been compromised.

I made a few LoPo jumps, commercial rounds with low porosity fabric (hence the LoPo name). Man what a difference. It was agony to go back to my bone crunching C9, but I just couldnt afford the good gear back then.

Today I jump a Triathlon 190 ram air canopy that gives me gentle landings every time. If you haven't jumped cheapos (surplus rounds were called cheapos, mocking LoPos) you cannot truly appreciate squares. These kids today don't know how good they have it blah blah blah....

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I first raised the question of the Denise story with Ckret in a PM way way back.

He said there was nothing, so I let it drop. Didn't even post to the forum, although I mentioned it to Sluggo.

I recently a month or so mentioned the Denise story again.

What I really don't understand, is how come Ckret didn't give us anything on this before?
Even if it's nothing and doesn't add anything, it at least was extra "evidence" that potentially modifies the story.

Either Ckret didn't know, or he decided to just let us have the story as previously told? How could Ckret had not known?

I can't understand any of this.

I said Ckret was "full of shit" at one point. I was feeling a little bad about that recently. But now I'm wondering "Geez was I right".

how I am supposed to digest this new release of information?

And where is georger getting it from?

[georger 197]

Quote

I first raised the question of the Denise story with Ckret in a PM way way back.

He said there was nothing, so I let it drop. Didn't even post to the forum, although I mentioned it to Sluggo.

I recently a month or so mentioned the Denise story again.

What I really don't understand, is how come Ckret didn't give us anything on this before?
Even if it's nothing and doesn't add anything, it at least was extra "evidence" that potentially modifies the story.

Either Ckret didn't know, or he decided to just let us have the story as previously told? How could Ckret had not known?

I can't understand any of this.

I said Ckret was "full of shit" at one point. I was feeling a little bad about that recently. But now I'm wondering "Geez was I right".

how I am supposed to digest this new release of information?

And where is georger getting it from?

Well Jo, some of us do research.

Georger

[377 20]

I too am puzzled by all this new money find info and why it wasn't previously released. I have always smelled a rat in the story, but it's just a hunch based thing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[steve1 5]

I recall watching a movie on D.B. Cooper's jump. Several people commented on how dangerous it would be to jump from a jet aircraft.

Actually jumping from a jet may not be that different than other jumps.

I made my very first jump from a C-141 jet in the army. It was probably comparable to the jet cooper jumped out of. In all I probably have around seven static line jumps out of a 141.

We used the side doors. There was a wind deflector that allowed you to clear the door before hitting a blast of wind.

If you had the right body position you were perfectly stable coming out of it. Openning shock wasn't bad either. We used t-10 canopies that are slightly para-bolic in shape.

My old para-commander used to open really hard and fast though. More than once my face bounced off my chest mounted altimeter.

I think anyone with any skydiving experience would know better than to pull right out the door of a jet. Most would wait a while till they slowed down and were perfectly stable, (if altitude allowed).

Any gear that wasn't secured might fly off in that kind of wind. (Possibly even shoes).

We used to jump old military gear in the early 70's, skydiving. I made probably 30 jumps on a 28 ft. round. I had two cut-aways on 24 ft. reserves.

I never openned in a track. I imagine some of that gear might smack you good, if you did open in a track. I knew a few people who went to terminal before opening their undiapered reserves. Most said it was awful. I've talked to a couple who said the openning shock wasn't bad though.

So, that's my limited knowlege on jumping rounds.

I don't think an experienced skydiver would have much trouble tail gaiting out of the back of an airliner.

Landing may have been the tough part. Jumping old gear, in the old days usually meant wearing boots, (French jump boots were best). If you were really young and tough, you could try tennis shoes.

You also needed an open field. The Columbia Gorge sounds like a death trap to me....

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

I first raised the question of the Denise story with Ckret in a PM way way back.

He said there was nothing, so I let it drop. Didn't even post to the forum, although I mentioned it to Sluggo.

I recently a month or so mentioned the Denise story again.

What I really don't understand, is how come Ckret didn't give us anything on this before?
Even if it's nothing and doesn't add anything, it at least was extra "evidence" that potentially modifies the story.

Either Ckret didn't know, or he decided to just let us have the story as previously told? How could Ckret had not known?

I can't understand any of this.

I said Ckret was "full of shit" at one point. I was feeling a little bad about that recently. But now I'm wondering "Geez was I right".

how I am supposed to digest this new release of information?

And where is georger getting it from?

Well Jo, some of us do research.

Georger

It's not research if you don't post a source.
but whatever. This is just a forum.

[snowmman 3]

hey steve1, any random comment and we gotta drill into it till nothing's left :)

Quote

I made my very first jump from a C-141 jet in the army. It was probably comparable to the jet cooper jumped out of. In all I probably have around seven static line jumps out of a 141.

We used the side doors. There was a wind deflector that allowed you to clear the door before hitting a blast of wind.

Steve1: You reminded me I had been looking for C-141 exits..only found this one short 10 second clip but put it up on youtube. 377 had mentioned the blast deflectors before. They're in the vid..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSOdVpMLLhE&feature=channel_page

[377 20]

airplane trivia: those blast deflectors were aftermarket, necessitated by a few paratroopers actually hitting the side of the C 141s when they jumped without them.

The C 141s are all being scrapped now. Seems to me they might have made good air tankers for forest fires. They are using a DC 10 in CA with good results. Jets can carry a lot and transit between a tanker base and a fire at very high speeds.

The govt no longer sells flyable aircraft surplus to civil buyers if they have any possible military use. The DOD bid contracts require that the wings be severed at the roots and cut up before removal from the Davis Monthan AFB storage area.

Hey, I paid for those F 14s they are now scrapping. Why can't I buy one?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

so I downloaded the 300+MB of higher resolution FMFM
and snapped two frames for Jo, and chopped just the 727 jumper exits and slow mo'ed by 10x and youtube'ed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs

It's interesting looking at them.
The static line deployment idea seems pretty bad.
The canopies drag against the bottom of the rear engine area and seem ripe for snagging. Also, the canopy actually "hits" the rear exhaust plume..you can see it deflects off that air stream.

All-in-all, static line deployment doesn't seem like a good idea there?

I looked for face snaps for Jo. Two attached.

I'm mindful of the age old wisdom delivered by every old guy in a bar to the next generation:
"Never get involved with a crazy woman, it's never worth it"....see, the thing is, women never really find out how all encompassing men can define crazy: ....i.e. "she said she wants what??? is she nuts?"

But it's Be Nice to Jo Month!
I couldn't find any other good faces Jo.

I noticed the guy with the white short sleeves that was helping one of the static line jumpers, who had a static line rig on himself, (no helmet though)..his rig had a tag on the top left strap..like a big laundry tag. Didn't get his face though.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

What I don't understand:

If the bundle was soggy, how did they separate bills in the kitchen so quickly? Wet bills don't separate. You might be able to separate chunks, but not an individual bill? Even after drying it might be difficult.

And why would anyone be eager to have just a "souvenir" ..i.e. one bill. I could see divying up the loot equally...But why hand out small numbers.

Isn't it likely that they suspected D.B. Cooper money right away, and they were mulling over just what to do for max gain, during the time interval? I guess I don't buy this story that they didn't think of Cooper till he went to work.

Now what we really don't know is whether there were more than 3 bundles at Tena Bar. The 12 mini-bundles the FBI showed, (the first money) seemed plausibly a breakup of 3 original bundles. The future court case seemed to only talk about $6000 or so. So are the extra bills just small amounts, and the story of 3 bundles etc still basically correct, in terms of quantity?

The soggy separation question i agree sounds suspect.
-----------------------------------------------------
Reply: Suspect how? Maybe they baked it in the
oven ? Are you saying they found dry bills? The
bulk of evidence is against that. I dont think we
can quibble too much about something we dont
have any "insight" into. Whatever the facts of how
the Ingrams handled the money, or how the FBI
handled it, the auction firm is "still" separating frgaments from the few bills turned back to Brian
years later. So the word "wet" and "bonded" seems
to be in the picture. The nature and extent of the bonding is another matter. The money had obviously sat in nature for some time.

One of the original explanations for "wet" was
"recent snow melt". But Christal Ingram's scenario
offers another explanation, ie. "near the water".

The position of the money on the bar may correlate
with the process that deposited it, and the time.
Notice the changes in the beachline over time -
attached. (Notice changes in the discharge end
of Catapillar island).

The photos presented thus far of the money show
clearly that some of the money separated rather cleanly, even after its original condition when
found. You can draw your own conclusions from
that but obviously finding bills with such integrity
goes more to the conditions these bills were
subjected to over time, than anything the Ingrams
did in separting them.

We don't know, for example, the ratio of fragments to whole bills. If the ratio is 1000:1 then we know
something important.

G.

• Quote

[georger 197]

Quote

I too am puzzled by all this new money find info and why it wasn't previously released. I have always smelled a rat in the story, but it's just a hunch based thing.

377

A rat? Then follow your own tail?
You are one of the people who said you did not believe the Ingram story and cited reasons why.
Your own citations were clues you failed or werent
interested in following up on.

You moved ahead with other matters and dropped
the Ingram matter. I didnt. Therein is the difference.
Im sorry!

G.

[snowmman 3]

(I know this is revisiting this issue, but a little bit new angle based on historical Ckret posts)

I've not been able to find the right data for the 727 in 1971, but some stuff seems to suggest that 15 degrees was the normal takeoff flap setting, and that the FAA allowed 5 and 10 also, I guess under some conditions? Be nice if we knew for sure.

So while they eventually went to 30 degree flaps, they couldn't have taken off with flaps more than 15 degrees?

I'm wondering about this thing Ckret suggested, i.e. that the pilots may have created the 15 degree spec, and that Cooper only said "down"
It doesn't seem to jibe with what the pilots apparently told newspapers later, but who knows what happened in communications.