snowmman 3
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Orange1 0
QuoteDo we have the testimony on the note exactly right? Forgive me if we do, I searched the thread, but wasn't confident. Also, were we told whether the note was typewritten, handwritten in block letters, pen or ink or ??? I don't think so? Please clarify.
(edit) In Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew"
http://www.google.com/books?id=J8JB_5MdDN0C&pg=PA65&dq=come+sit+by+me
when Petruchio says "Come sit on me", the interpretation is as a "bawdy introduction to sex"....[etc]
What are you sayiing - we have all been mistaken and should be looking for an English Lit major?
And even if Duane's writing does match that in the book - first, is the handwriting so unusual? 2nd ... so what? Even if confirmed, all it tells us is he read a book. Hey, it is entirely possible that Duane's secret ambition was to catch DB Cooper and he went down all these roads long before we did, and died frustrated, finally mentioning why (well, it's as possible as the fact that he was Cooper!)
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 194
QuoteJo Stated:
Snowmman : Here is the one thing that did come out ok tonight..it was short memo and I edited out most of the memo.
Snowmman Replied:
I'm assuming that's Duane's block hand lettering on the letter? He must have scribbled notes on the copy after he mailed the original to whoever he was asking for record details?
Is that correct? Is something like this what you would say "matched" the "Toutle" marking on the map we've seen before?
He did make notes in Red pen and with a thick point pen he liked to use, but I have pencil notes just like the scribbled notes in the book in other items such as business logs and many other handwritten pencil items.
I have waited Patiently for the FBI to produce the lightly penciled envelope that was mailed a few miles from where Duane's sister lived - BUT, they do not seem to be able to find this - just like the cigarette butt.
I have never posted anything but the "toutle page" - there is a complete sentence in another part of the book. With the toutle you have ONE word even though some of you tried to say there was part of it cut off and other writting there - "Toutle" was the only handwritten item on that page. Part of the page did not scan - but nothing was there that was not in the original book.
The ther page is waiting for the FBI and others to WAKE up. If you think I am going to put everything out here for the lurkers we have, to write a book you got another guess coming. I have been used and used, but I still hold things.
I am getting ready to mention one of those things since Georger walked right into it.
The Smorgasbord - Grand Court - Order of the Amaranth - State of New York. Not research just something I have sat on - waiting and you opened the door. Thank You, Georger.
Reply> Thank you. Its not mine to prove, but yours.
It's not mine to prove or even deal with, in any event.
And, if you check the record, Jo, I am the one who suggested a Catskills Borscht Belt connection for you
and Duane a long time ago. You as much as denied it. Now you require it! How's that for luck.
If this link with Max Gunther is as solid as you now claim - lets forget youve never mentioned any of this
in any forum before - why when Gunther was informed
by you of your evidence didn't he pick right up on this
and issue a national best seller. It was in his power to do so. It was in your power to do so through Gunther.
Why did reporters at the NY Times etc miss the
connection all these years? Maybe you have just written
Geoff Gray's book for him.
Don't let me discourage you, as if I could.
G.
snowmman 3
QuoteWhat are you sayiing - we have all been mistaken and should be looking for an English Lit major?
mistaken? what were we looking for anyhow? I thought we had no good profile. Did you think we had a profile?
Also, I have no confidence any more that I know what the note actually said, so ignore that particular post.
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteWhat are you sayiing - we have all been mistaken and should be looking for an English Lit major?
mistaken? what were we looking for anyhow? I thought we had no good profile. Did you think we had a profile?
Also, I have no confidence any more that I know what the note actually said, so ignore that particular post.
well... insofar as "profile" was concerned I don't think anyone has mentioned Eng Lit majors before
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat are you sayiing - we have all been mistaken and should be looking for an English Lit major?
mistaken? what were we looking for anyhow? I thought we had no good profile. Did you think we had a profile?
Also, I have no confidence any more that I know what the note actually said, so ignore that particular post.
well... insofar as "profile" was concerned I don't think anyone has mentioned Eng Lit majors before
ah okay, then yes. I thought I had already introduced it when I suggested "boasting man" on the "possible" Cooper note (that Ckret hopefully can find) may have suggested literature also.
Yes I'm thinking civilian, with jump experience. No engineering background. Literature? maybe. You gotta get the big ideas and big dreams from somewhere. If you're a loner you get them from books.
Me, I think Ckret hasn't got a clue what engineers are like. I don't see why he threw out "engineer" in his early profile. I actually think it has more to do with his own perceptions than any professional assessment, but what do I know. I'm a nutcase posting on a DB cooper thread, on a skydiving website and I don't jump or fly!
Orange1 0
QuoteI'm a nutcase posting on a DB cooper thread, on a skydiving website and I don't jump or fly!
(Sins of omission...) do you hijack aeroplanes though??
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 194
QuoteMore Letters
Rep: they dont look related to me.
attached -
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteI'm a nutcase posting on a DB cooper thread, on a skydiving website and I don't jump or fly!
(Sins of omission...) do you hijack aeroplanes though??
No, and I don't know who does. None of us do. So there's no distinguishing factor there for us. None of us have secret knowledge that brings us closer than others to hijackers.
However, even though I'm whuffo, my probes have convinced me of the lack of knowledge here about '60s era skydiving. Sure some people jumped then, or know about it. But we don't have the full coverage that would give us data about "possible Coopers".
For instance:
1) How many schoolteachers, non-engineers, etc were sport jumping '62-70 in the WA area?
2) How were jump clubs organized on USAF bases in southeast Asia and Vietnam from '62-70?
3) How many civilians jumped at those clubs?
4) What kind of US civilians were present in southeast Asia in '62-'70 that would be mid '40s in '71...like schoolteachers, USAID, or US non-military support programs.
5) I focus non-US because of an assumption of good US FBI coverage. But it's obvious that the search was lame or the data gathering bad. So the same questions apply to WA area '62-'70.
6) For each year within the '62-'70 period, what percentage of civilian jumpers used surplus gear, and non-steerable canopies. Split that between US and Southeast Asia.
Note we have zero data on whether the FBI investigation covered all of that or not. 1000 suspects doesn't sound like a lot to me, especially when guys like Duane and some others are representative of "the list"
I actually just laugh when you make it sound like "lit" would be off base. There's absolutely nothing that would say it's off base.
I laugh at the relatively narrow understanding of Vietnam. (actually it's not funny, and I wasn't there).
Orange1: Do you have data on the backgrounds of civilian jumpers from '62 to '70? Especially ones that would be mid-40's in '71. What do you think the breakdown is, for their "employment". We can fully assume some kind of military background like WWII since most males of the right age would have had it.
The only reason "engineer" was brought into the subject was a perceived access to information about Boeing 727's? Right? That betrays a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and distributed and maintained in the early '60s, say. (to say that "the knowledge" somehow points to "engineer".)
I hijack threads though!
Orange1 0
Quote- Order of the Amaranth -
OMG. Well I suppose it was just a matter of time before the Masonic (Templar/Rosicrucian etc) aspect made its way into this grand conspiracy theory. The only thing still left out is Roswell?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 194
QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm a nutcase posting on a DB cooper thread, on a skydiving website and I don't jump or fly!
(Sins of omission...) do you hijack aeroplanes though??
No, and I don't know who does. None of us do. So there's no distinguishing factor there for us. None of us have secret knowledge that brings us closer than others to hijackers.
However, even though I'm whuffo, my probes have convinced me of the lack of knowledge here about '60s era skydiving. Sure some people jumped then, or know about it. But we don't have the full coverage that would give us data about "possible Coopers".
For instance:
1) How many schoolteachers, non-engineers, etc were sport jumping '62-70 in the WA area?
2) How were jump clubs organized on USAF bases in southeast Asia and Vietnam from '62-70?
3) How many civilians jumped at those clubs?
4) What kind of US civilians were present in southeast Asia in '62-'70 that would be mid '40s in '71...like schoolteachers, USAID, or US non-military support programs.
5) I focus non-US because of an assumption of good US FBI coverage. But it's obvious that the search was lame or the data gathering bad. So the same questions apply to WA area '62-'70.
6) For each year within the '62-'70 period, what percentage of civilian jumpers used surplus gear, and non-steerable canopies. Split that between US and Southeast Asia.
Note we have zero data on whether the FBI investigation covered all of that or not. 1000 suspects doesn't sound like a lot to me, especially when guys like Duane and some others are representative of "the list"
I actually just laugh when you make it sound like "lit" would be off base. There's absolutely nothing that would say it's off base.
I laugh at the relatively narrow understanding of Vietnam. (actually it's not funny, and I wasn't there).
Orange1: Do you have data on the backgrounds of civilian jumpers from '62 to '70? Especially ones that would be mid-40's in '71. What do you think the breakdown is, for their "employment". We can fully assume some kind of military background like WWII since most males of the right age would have had it.
The only reason "engineer" was brought into the subject was a perceived access to information about Boeing 727's? Right? That betrays a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and distributed and maintained in the early '60s, say. (to say that "the knowledge" somehow points to "engineer".)
I hijack threads though!
All good points but Im guessing a demographer
would say such stats were not available in the 60s.
There was a Bureau of Vital Statistics in the
1960s which kept some obscure stats. (Their stats played a large role in the building of the Dictionary of Occupational Titles which became a central document for policy making & funding by the mid 1970s. The document was used under Nixon to decommission many government programs; little known fact, including some of the very people and
agency programs which were working on the DOT!)
Inferences from vital stats on record at the time might be assembled to estimate some of the subset catagories you mention, but it is 37 years late.
But you wont know unless you ask the appropriate
agencies.
I always come back to the time Mucklow spent with
Cooper and what they talked about. Surely it wasnt
all spent in silence? That, to mind, would be one of
the best guides as to who Cooper was, or was not,
as compared to a Gunther-Duane-Jo connection
which now suggsts literature background? And Jo's
post above says she's been "sitting on" Duane's
high society connections! Whoopie Dee!
If anything is pursued here under the current regime, it should be why Gunther never published further (even a magazine artikle) about 'further
developments in the Cooper case', once Jo had
hit the scene with Duane's story? I have a feeling
he ran from Jo. In any event, he said nothing
further in print?
Did Pasternak interview Gunther? Why didn't
Pasternak refer to Gunther? There are answers
there that bear on this matter.
I am suggesting the world is not as one-dimensional
as Joe would have us believe.
Keep in mind. Jo is only searching for the truth.
Jo is fair & balanced, on this channel.
Bring in the Geico ad!
G.
Ckret 0
QuoteQuoteI'd go by Ckret's version of the note myself, keep in mind that Cooper didn't let Tina keep it, he took it back. Any "testimony" on the note is going to come from the interview with Tina after the fact. How well would she have remembered details like that under those circumstances? I'm a little different, I've trained a bit to study for important details under stressful situations, but I think Tina would have been mostly thinking about how to keep Cooper from setting off the bomb.
whatever. Why are you making excuses for how little we know?
No matter what, there has to be some consensus truth that we say is "The Note". All we have is a casual comment from Ckret on the text. I had other questions. Sluggo noted that the stew notes describe the original note slightly differently.
So all I'm saying, is that Ckret could tell us more about the testimony about the note. Maybe the interview didn't cover more detail.
I don't know.
That's all I'm saying. Anyone who says they know more than Ckret's casual post on the text of the note, would be interesting to hear from.
(edit) For background on uncertainty even around the text:
Per Crew Notes #2:
Miss -
I have a bomb in my briefcase.
I want you to sit next to me.
I posted exactly what Schaffner said the note said, she is the one who received the note from Cooper. I also posted exactly what she said Cooper dictated to her. Whether that is exactly what Cooper wrote and said I don't know, I was not there. I believe they are exacting, Schaffner wrote notes and kept a running log of what happened as it was happening.
In regard to handwriting samples, I have several hand written letters from Duane to his mother. Speaking of that, there was a comprehensive investigation into Duane’s life, from his teen years through his death. We tried very hard to link Weber to the Cooper case, we put a large amount of effort into the investigation. From our Seattle office to the Jacksonville office to our lab in Quantico and a few in between. We interviewed family members, colleted evidence and documents outlining his life; civilian and military. I have the file at my desk; from that investigation no leads were developed that could be followed linking Weber to the Cooper case.
Keep in mind this is not a member of the a victims family seeking justice or a family member seeking justice from a wrongful conviction. This is someone wanting to find justice by having her husband named as a hijacker and after a comprehensive investigation the FBI’s refusal to do so. That ranks very low on the “seeking justice” scale and my efforts to help. That is why I have encouraged those wanting further review to seek a private investigator. My mind is not closed, I just need evidence, not stories that have no investigative avenue. No one is hiding anything and if a private investigator, or anyone, was able to come up with something that could link Weber to Cooper (and we could prove it) so be it; case solved.
snowmman 3
One thought I've been musing about, is how the Cooper thing was really a technology exploit. i.e. the airline industry operated with a set of technologies and behaviors that were easily exploitable.
Putting all issues of ethics and morality aside (because they don't matter for what's "doable")...I think that anything that is physically doable, eventually gets done, if there's some reward in it. (maybe not even financial). When I look at what things humans have done, that seems true. All possible crimes eventually get committed. The laws, morality etc. just reduce the rate.
So when I think of Cooper, I can't help but wonder if Cooper might have had that thought: "It had to be done".
I've also been reading a lot about Vietnam recently. Realizing how little I know. Lots of crazy things. Somehow my eye is always drawn to Quad-50's that were mounted on the back of dump trucks. I think just because it seems so insane.
Putting all issues of ethics and morality aside (because they don't matter for what's "doable")...I think that anything that is physically doable, eventually gets done, if there's some reward in it. (maybe not even financial). When I look at what things humans have done, that seems true. All possible crimes eventually get committed. The laws, morality etc. just reduce the rate.
So when I think of Cooper, I can't help but wonder if Cooper might have had that thought: "It had to be done".
I've also been reading a lot about Vietnam recently. Realizing how little I know. Lots of crazy things. Somehow my eye is always drawn to Quad-50's that were mounted on the back of dump trucks. I think just because it seems so insane.
snowmman 3
Attached is article claiming the first no-chute jump. (reserve chute transfer in air)
Rod Pack. 26. Jumped from 14,600 ft.
Ex-carpenter, stuntman.
Two skydiving photogs supposedly.
His 534th jump.
167 lbs. Wore skin-diver belt with 30 lb weights
4000' to the start of the transfer.
4000' to complete the transfer.
Said Pack: "They claimed it couldn't be done, but we proved differently"
....
"You always hear somebody joking about jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Then I got to thinking, 'why couldn't it be done?'"
(edit) I guess it's well known trivia already
http://www.parachutehistory.com/skydive/rodpackjump.html
picture there. funny Rod says he had never opened a reserve before.
Rod Pack. 26. Jumped from 14,600 ft.
Ex-carpenter, stuntman.
Two skydiving photogs supposedly.
His 534th jump.
167 lbs. Wore skin-diver belt with 30 lb weights
4000' to the start of the transfer.
4000' to complete the transfer.
Said Pack: "They claimed it couldn't be done, but we proved differently"
....
"You always hear somebody joking about jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Then I got to thinking, 'why couldn't it be done?'"
(edit) I guess it's well known trivia already
http://www.parachutehistory.com/skydive/rodpackjump.html
picture there. funny Rod says he had never opened a reserve before.
QuoteI've also been reading a lot about Vietnam recently.
McCoy was a VN vet and skydiver, so it's not a bad profile.
Part of the appeal of Christiansen and Gossett as suspects
is that they both have parachute experience.
The armed services reduced their number by quite a bit
at this time. Example - the 6th SFG was deactivated in 1971.
There were probably some career people at Fort Lewis that
left the military about that time. People with the skills and
knowledge of the area.
Someone with 20 years in the military, no savings,
and on their way out... It would check a lot of boxes.
georger 194
QuoteQuoteI've also been reading a lot about Vietnam recently.
McCoy was a VN vet and skydiver, so it's not a bad profile.
Part of the appeal of Christiansen and Gossett as suspects
is that they both have parachute experience.
The armed services reduced their number by quite a bit
at this time. Example - the 6th SFG was deactivated in 1971.
There were probably some career people at Fort Lewis that
left the military about that time. People with the skills and
knowledge of the area.
Someone with 20 years in the military, no savings,
and on their way out... It would check a lot of boxes.
Reply> and Iv been thinking about how a person
selects a mode of escape, which parachuting was, or was it more (a thing in its own right)?
Was it fashionable by '71? (goes to the copy cat idea).
Snow has already covered some of this, but there must
be more to this.
Was it a choice based on skills alone? We have no firm
data on that except Sluggo believes Cooper had a
well signed plan based on knowledge.
Was it a choice based on efficiency/less chance of
apprehension.
Was it a choice based on probability of success given
several factors, for Cooper personally.
Was it a psychological choice, a pact with himself
willing to risk suicide (to make a statement?). He
could not have chosen a specific drop site but only a
drop zone?
These are some of the factors which come to my
mind.
Ckret has delivered a breath of fresh air. Tov Miod!
G.
snowmman 3
I will cut Ckret a little, but not much, slack on his engineer profile.
Hahneman was an electronics engineer. I've covered him a lot. He asked for a lot of gear on his jump. Including cigarettes. (jump suit + helmet too? not sure what got delivered)....Evidently it was close to evening (Honduras) cause when he turned himself in, he said the first thing he did on landing was take off his gear, light a smoke and wait for daylight.
I liked that, cause my prediction for Cooper on landing, would be, first thing, light a smoke.
But if someone's going to say "McCoy is how a jumper would do it. (Well is Heady also a non-whuffo example then? He was pretty wild with pillowcase etc) ..you should then also say "Hahneman is how an engineer would do it".
see I think most of our profiles are gooblegooky pseudo-psychology-today level thinking. We really can't predict how anyone would do anything when you're talking about hijacking...unless maybe the violent subgroup..guys with guns, political agendas, etc.
Google news archive improved over the months. Coughed up a better photo of Hahneman (attached)
His full name is Frederick William Hahneman. I guess He went by William? 49 in '72. Got life.
(edit) demand list was like: two helmets, two jump suits, food, drink, cigarettes, two bush knives, the money, and six parachutes. I think Benson & Hedges. Yes, exactly 2000 of them. Really.
(edit) The pilot was quoted:
"I wouldn't have made that jump for a million dollars," said W. L. Hendershott, captain of the Eastern airliner. "It was extremely dangerous. Our crew saw him jump, but never saw the chute open."
"He was cold and ruthless," said Hendershott. "There was no doubt in my mind that, if we balked at his orders, he would've shot the crew one by one."
Leaped from 9000 ft as the pilot reduced speed over the highlands of Honduras.
Quotes from:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=00sNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Lm0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7317,1138973&dq=hijack+honduras+jump+suits
Hahneman was an electronics engineer. I've covered him a lot. He asked for a lot of gear on his jump. Including cigarettes. (jump suit + helmet too? not sure what got delivered)....Evidently it was close to evening (Honduras) cause when he turned himself in, he said the first thing he did on landing was take off his gear, light a smoke and wait for daylight.
I liked that, cause my prediction for Cooper on landing, would be, first thing, light a smoke.
But if someone's going to say "McCoy is how a jumper would do it. (Well is Heady also a non-whuffo example then? He was pretty wild with pillowcase etc) ..you should then also say "Hahneman is how an engineer would do it".
see I think most of our profiles are gooblegooky pseudo-psychology-today level thinking. We really can't predict how anyone would do anything when you're talking about hijacking...unless maybe the violent subgroup..guys with guns, political agendas, etc.
Google news archive improved over the months. Coughed up a better photo of Hahneman (attached)
His full name is Frederick William Hahneman. I guess He went by William? 49 in '72. Got life.
(edit) demand list was like: two helmets, two jump suits, food, drink, cigarettes, two bush knives, the money, and six parachutes. I think Benson & Hedges. Yes, exactly 2000 of them. Really.
(edit) The pilot was quoted:
"I wouldn't have made that jump for a million dollars," said W. L. Hendershott, captain of the Eastern airliner. "It was extremely dangerous. Our crew saw him jump, but never saw the chute open."
"He was cold and ruthless," said Hendershott. "There was no doubt in my mind that, if we balked at his orders, he would've shot the crew one by one."
Leaped from 9000 ft as the pilot reduced speed over the highlands of Honduras.
Quotes from:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=00sNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Lm0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7317,1138973&dq=hijack+honduras+jump+suits
Tandems have made skydiving more accessible,
and skydiving is more familiar to the general public
today than then.
Considering that, sit down with 10 non-skydiving friends and ask them if they would jump out of an airplane without any prior training or familiarity with gear. How many "Yes" votes?
- This points to some experience, however little.
Cooper picked the non-sport gear. You go with what you know.
- Points to familiarity with military gear.
The era of the 70s.
- VN era military is discharging people.
- 40yo estimated age. A 20-year career vet is 38.
and skydiving is more familiar to the general public
today than then.
Considering that, sit down with 10 non-skydiving friends and ask them if they would jump out of an airplane without any prior training or familiarity with gear. How many "Yes" votes?
- This points to some experience, however little.
Cooper picked the non-sport gear. You go with what you know.
- Points to familiarity with military gear.
The era of the 70s.
- VN era military is discharging people.
- 40yo estimated age. A 20-year career vet is 38.
snowmman 3
Quote
- Points to familiarity with military gear.
Attached are 3 ads from the Sept '65 Skydiver magazine about parachute gear.
Does it tell me about what jumpers of the mid '60s would be familiar with? If so, what? What about for Poor jumper vs not-so-poor?
What about early '60s?
What about non-US?
Excellent point. A lot of people in the sport community were jumping surplus military gear.
snowmman 3
QuoteExcellent point. A lot of people in the sport community were jumping surplus military gear.
What year would you estimate would be the last year that it would be hard to find someone that had not jumped a Paracommander, ever?
(edit) Said another way: last year you could find someone who had never jumped a Paracommander..
(edit) To make it more difficult, I've read that the new jumpers at jump clubs sometimes got the old gear, like 28' rounds.
Assuming they are actively jumping every year. Assuming we're talking about both poor and non-poor jumpers.
US would be one year.
non-US another year.
This estimate would provide a reasonable bounds for when someone who was a "jumper" "had" to be familiar with Pioneer gear. (I'm assuming Paracommander but we don't know. I don't know what range of Pioneer gear was around in '71. They did pilot emergency rigs, but we're told it was some kind of Pioneer Sport rig of unknown vintage, Type 226).
So what are the two years?
(edit) But there has already been hundreds of posts about Cooper's implied expertise based on gear selection. People "have" to have made an estimate in their minds. What is it? If no estimate was made...well..
(edit) Note I'm assuming correlation between "Pioneer sport rig" and Paracommander based on my weak understanding of the era. I may be missing a better correlation.
(edit) Also: Cossey was 33 in '71? What year did he start jumping?
No i-dear. Started jumping in 94. It was mostly squares when I started.
Hi Jo.
No you haven't.
-Snow
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