DB Cooper

[happythoughts 0]

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How's this for logic?

Let’s see now:

SF = snowmman’s friend : : : : TK = Tom Kaye


SF – Mad Scientist type
TK – Mad Scientist type

SF – Has wife
TK – Has wife

SF – Lives in Tempe, AZ
TK – Lives in Sierra Vista, AZ

SF – Has his own private forensics lab
TK – Has his own private forensics lab

SF – Bought used gear
TK – Got his EM on e-Bay

That settles it:

Jo! Hey Jo! Snowmman’s friend is Tom Kaye!

Seriously... Tom,

Great job! Now... when you gonna publish some results, so we can all go and invade the countryside of South Clark County, WA (or is it North Multnomah County, OR?)


Sluggo

My friend Stan has an all red jumpsuit.
Santa has an all red suit.
Satan has an all red suit.

They all use the same letters to spell their names.
You never see them together.

Too much for coincidence.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Orange1

This is a pretty good synopsis.

The arid desert of the Southwest seems like the last place that anyone would be searching for the most infamous criminal from the Northwest.

But that's what Tom Kaye is doing, in a manner of speaking, in his lab just north of the Mexican border.

“One of the things that's my specialty is I look at the effects of long-term burial by things living in the ground, like bacteria and how it effects things,” he said.

Kaye, who normally digs up dinosaur bones for Seattle's Burke Museum, volunteered to examine some of the tattered loot from skyjacker D.B. Cooper.

For the first time, the bills are examined under a powerful electron microscope.

“As we zoom in the first thing that's noticeable is the fibers from the bill,” aid Kaye.
Tiny bits of never-before-seen evidence come to life.

The story of D.B. Cooper, the nation’s only unsolved skyjacking, has an important missing link.
A passenger calling himself Dan Cooper demanded parachutes and $200,000 ransom, which the FBI delivered during a Seattle fuel-stop.

Airborne again, Cooper leaped from the commercial jet with the money into the icy Northwest sky and disappeared.

Beachcombers found some of the money nine years later along the Columbia River, well south of where Cooper was believed to have landed.

How did it get there? Kaye says his research is already revealing some answers.

“We have absolutely found some things that shocked us when we first looked at those bills," he said. “It's my personal opinion that most everything we've heard from eyewitnesses and the people involved is wrong."

Drumming up new leads, from places other than dusty Cooper files in the Seattle FBI office, is exactly what Agent Larry Carr had in mind when he loaned the Cooper bills to a respected team of scientists nationwide, including Kaye.

“I think if he can take a dinosaur bone, pull it out of the ground and tell me what it had for lunch millions of years ago, well, if he can do that with a dinosaur bone, then maybe he can do something with the money we have,” said Carr.

The old case is such a low priority, Carr can't get tests done at the FBI’s busy lab, so he's appealed to the public for help, with promising results.

Wayne Walker of Alabama discovered something scores of FBI agents didn't. He noticed a basic miscalculation on the FBI’s map of the plane's flight path used to determine Cooper's drop zone.

That, and other new evidence, means the massive search in 1971 was in the wrong place. Cooper probably jumped more than 15 miles south of the search area.

Kaye's team is also uncovering evidence that Cooper landed south, but won't release specifics until research is complete.

He expects to re-write some chapters of Cooper history and spur new leads.

“So D.B. Cooper, if you're out there, we're coming to get you and our guns are really loaded with technology,” said Kaye.

The FBI plans to take the new information that citizens are uncovering and develop a new profile of the Cooper case, which will be made public some time next year.

Sluggo

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Thanks Sluggo!

and kudos for all you guys involved in this... & welcome to the forum, Tom.

looking fwd to the new evidence ... sounds like something that may satisfy the CSI junkies is forthcoming?:

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Kaye's team is also uncovering evidence that Cooper landed south, but won't release specifics until research is complete.

And kudos to Ckret too, looks like your approach is paying dividends.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[BuzzardNest 0]

Well, OK, CKRET. I guess I was a little fast to judgment. Besides, you seem to have a large cadre of buddies in here who are now chastising me for taking you on. Humble apologies. Anything that you can share, though, regarding locations on 467 where some of the prints were lifted? I'll watch my language next time.
ps. By the way, what beach are you sucking it up on?

[TomKaye 1]

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SF = snowmman’s friend : : : : TK = Tom Kaye


SF – Mad Scientist type
TK – Mad Scientist type

Sluggo

Whoa! That's a a lot of math! I will have to call one of my physicist buddies.....

Thanks Sluggo, you paved the way for all of us. Our intention is to do a formal, scientific, peer reviewed paper of the findings, probably around spring. We have to do experiments to verify our ideas. Once we publish, the debate can begin in earnest.

Tom

[Ckret 0]

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Well, OK, CKRET. I guess I was a little fast to judgment. Besides, you seem to have a large cadre of buddies in here who are now chastising me for taking you on. Humble apologies. Anything that you can share, though, regarding locations on 467 where some of the prints were lifted? I'll watch my language next time.
ps. By the way, what beach are you sucking it up on?

None of the prints lifted in the original sweep of the plane were of value. When it was discovered that none of the lifts could be used, agents were asked to go back on the plane and try again. The prints recovered that are of value came from a magazine found in the row of seats Cooper was sitting.

Fast forward to 37 years; I cannot find any reference to Cooper reading a magazine. Agents did the best they could with what they had at the time. Whether that effort recovered Cooper’s prints I don’t know, but (Buzzard) if you send me the originals instead of copies I’ll run the comparisons.

As far as “buddies” go on this thread, I can tell you this, no one gives me passage here. I think it may have more to do with you having just joined the conversation in October, having 6 post and taking me to task without provocation. But then again I suspect we go back a ways, don’t we.

Regardless, apology accepted; you seem to have much to say, I look forward to your contribution.

PS Orlando

[skyjack71 0]

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Thanks Sluggo, you paved the way for all of us. Our intention is to do a formal, scientific, peer reviewed paper of the findings, probably around spring. We have to do experiments to verify our ideas. Once we publish, the debate can begin in earnest.

Tom

I sent you some private info so you don't have to rely on second hand info...regarding the places Duane took me...in 1979.

Forgot the Diary farm, but we didn't get out of the car...this will help I hope to exclude or include certain sites.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

1) I and I are not Tom K.
2) I wouldn't join a cadre that would accept me as a member.
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc

[377 20]

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Anyone who's willing to put themselves out there in the media deserves some slack

uhhh, would that include Ckret?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

The question came up whether hotels were visited/employees questioned, back in 1971.

So we rustled all the PhD's out of bed here, and sent them off with clipboards and donuts to interview all the blog-owning-night-clerks we could find. Some were in Brazil. One interview took place at a dance club called "Help" just outside Rio. Bribes etc were exchanged as necessary. Substance abuse when deemed proper.

This is what we came up with. So apparently agents went to the Carlton.(edit) It's no big mental leap to assume the same scene played out at every hotel etc.

Don't know if they confiscated any Che Guevera panties.

(the stuff below is verbatim from the blog)

http://housesoncedarstreet.blogspot.com/2008/11/was-he-or-wasnt-he.html

"I went to work at the Carlton on December 17, 1971, only about three weeks after this famous nights. The people at the Carlton were still buzzing with what they perceived as truth that DB Cooper had been a guest at the Carlton Hotel just days before his famous night. According to the guests, the FBI had been all over the hotel looking for clues.

I don't know for sure that he was or had ever been a guest at the Carlton.We did not require picture Id's in those days to register. But, for some strange reason, I feel a special bond with DB Cooper because I feel that he had been in the Carlton, and I could feel his presence. Maybe it was just my imagination, or maybe it isn't. I do not know for sure any more than the FBI knows who he was or if he survived that historical night."

[377 20]

Come on folks, dont play it so safe. Speculation is what we do best here on the DB C forum. So what will TK's test results imply????

my guess: the kids did find the money but they were subtly lead to the spot by the Dad who put it there.

That find story always struck me as fishy and waaaay too improbable.

Welcome Tom Kaye! Glad to have you aboard.

Ckret, looks like your innovative web based citizen-agency collaborative investigation model is bearing some fruit. Very cool, whether it solves the case or not.

Georger and Sluggo, you guys rock.

Don't count Snowmman out. He has not been idle, just kind of quiet.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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See the video about Dr. Kaye's work on the money:

H E R E

Thanks to Georger, Sluggo and the rest of you citizen sleuths.

Thank you Larry. And to the rest of you too.

Now, get the hell out of here and go enjoy Thanksgiving and the time off. It's our privelege.

Sincerely,
Georger

[quade 3]

Feel free to never post in this thread again.

Cya.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[snowmman 3]

ah man.
I had the street cred of being the last guy banned here.
Now I'm just the 2nd to last? (2nd place is first loser?)

[377 20]

all Snow all the time...

Snow, surely if you know the term street cred, OG is familiar to you as well.

If you are a true OG, and few here would dispute that you are, then you have permanent exhalted street cred, kinda like street tenure.

The young kids commit brash in your face Quade felonies seeking street approval, but you are beyond that now.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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ah man.
I had the street cred of being the last guy banned here.
Now I'm just the 2nd to last? (2nd place is first loser?)

No, in this case banned is losing IMO. You are just no longer the most recent loser. I've never understood the idea of getting caught and sent to prison as being a good thing. If you were that good, you never would have gotten caught (compare Sam Giancana with Al Capone for instance).

Man, I go away for 3 days and look what happens. Nice job all you folks on the forensics. Now I want to know what else he found.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[georger 197]

Dropzone lurker who posts on parachute matters
at Dropzone but has avoided our DB Cooper Forum, is evidently working on a new book about the Cooper
case, he says

He is GEOFF:
Gray, Geoffrey. "Unmasking D.B. Cooper." New York Magazine. October 22, 2007. http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/

Evidently Geoff has been working with Agent Larry Carr behind the scenes.

Its news to me! Im sure its news to everyone here.

Congrats to Mr Gray on his forthcoming book.

When do you plan to publish your book?

Georger

[snowmman 3]

yeah, I don't really like lurkers who freeload.
"ggjumpshot" sent me a PM with a nymag email address. A couple weeks back I think?? 11/3/08

He mentioned some stuff that I told him was novice level Cooper thinking...Level 0. He went away. I'm surprised he never posted here. I told him to go research when night vision goggles first arrived in Vietnam! (for 377).

He was on about Dan Cooper comics and NATO bases or something. Didn't talk much with him.

Why do random lurkers think I would care about keeping any PMs "private"? Is there some law of the jungle that if I violate I get constipation for the rest of my life?

It's like walking up to a crazy nut in the parking lot, ranting about Cooper, and thinking the nut will just forget what you just said.

It's like "Oh yeah, I have a nymag email address, so I get some respect" ...not!

Get a clue! the internet is full of kooks..don't send out your phone number!

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forgive me for waiting so long to contact you. i'm not a message board person, but have been following the case for some time and am now working on a book for crown publishing. (I know, another book, right?) anyway, i'm after pretty much everything in this thing but was particularly intrigued with your take on dan cooper the french comic. and other things. i have much to ask you. what's the best way? my email is [email protected] (xxx-xxx-xxxx)

(okay I had a heart and didn't include his phone number)

Another example of his "deep" thinking. He sounds more interested in getting a cutesy story than anything else...
Like duh, like we don't know who wrote the Dan Cooper stuff.

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i see a lot of things in the toast. Jesus, maybe, but also Albert Weinberg.

who? he's the creator of the dan cooper comic. he's from belgium.

i think the coincidence between the cooper name and the cooper comic is too great to overlook. agree?

if so, then how would the hijacker become acquainted with the french comic?

i think he's european misses the point. he could easily be an american, or maybe even a canadian, stationed in france or elsewhere in europe during that time. He could even be at an airforce base.

but now i am speculating...

my question is: if we agree the the dan cooper comic book lead is too good to ignore, have you taken it a step further?

i agree: this thing doesn't have to be so complicated. that's why the name he gave (dan cooper) seems like such a no-brainer lead.

[Orange1 0]

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yeah, I don't really like lurkers who freeload.

hmmm. i have a more philosophical approach to them i guess... occupational hazard. end of story.

(you can always look up the economic literature on the free rider problem)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

Quote

yeah, I don't really like lurkers who freeload.
"ggjumpshot" sent me a PM with a nymag email address. A couple weeks back I think?? 11/3/08

He mentioned some stuff that I told him was novice level Cooper thinking...Level 0. He went away. I'm surprised he never posted here. I told him to go research when night vision goggles first arrived in Vietnam! (for 377).

He was on about Dan Cooper comics and NATO bases or something. Didn't talk much with him.

Why do random lurkers think I would care about keeping any PMs "private"? Is there some law of the jungle that if I violate I get constipation for the rest of my life?

It's like walking up to a crazy nut in the parking lot, ranting about Cooper, and thinking the nut will just forget what you just said.

It's like "Oh yeah, I have a nymag email address, so I get some respect" ...not!

Get a clue! the internet is full of kooks..don't send out your phone number!

Quote

forgive me for waiting so long to contact you. i'm not a message board person, but have been following the case for some time and am now working on a book for crown publishing. (I know, another book, right?) anyway, i'm after pretty much everything in this thing but was particularly intrigued with your take on dan cooper the french comic. and other things. i have much to ask you. what's the best way? my email is [email protected] (xxx-xxx-xxxx)

(okay I had a heart and didn't include his phone number)

Another example of his "deep" thinking. He sounds more interested in getting a cutesy story than anything else...
Like duh, like we don't know who wrote the Dan Cooper stuff.

Quote

i see a lot of things in the toast. Jesus, maybe, but also Albert Weinberg.

who? he's the creator of the dan cooper comic. he's from belgium.

i think the coincidence between the cooper name and the cooper comic is too great to overlook. agree?

if so, then how would the hijacker become acquainted with the french comic?

i think he's european misses the point. he could easily be an american, or maybe even a canadian, stationed in france or elsewhere in europe during that time. He could even be at an airforce base.

but now i am speculating...

my question is: if we agree the the dan cooper comic book lead is too good to ignore, have you taken it a step further?

i agree: this thing doesn't have to be so complicated. that's why the name he gave (dan cooper) seems like such a no-brainer lead.

I don’t want to speak for Geoff, but he was lurking here at my advise for research. So much good work was/is being done that I did not want him to miss it.

[snowmman 3]

Hey Orange1 thanks for that reference. wikipedia had a nice quick summary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

I was surprised to see a Pareto reference. I'm always interested in how many places that guy shows up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency

"A weak Pareto optimum (WPO) satisfies a less stringent requirement, in which a new allocation is only considered to be a Pareto improvement if it is strictly preferred by all individuals (i.e., all must gain with the new allocation). In other words, when an allocation is WPO there are no possible alternative allocations where every individual would gain."

"A common criticism of a state of Pareto efficiency is that it does not necessarily result in a socially desirable distribution of resources, as it may lead to unjust and inefficient inequities"

[Orange1 0]

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I was surprised to see a Pareto reference. I'm always interested in how many places that guy shows up.

OK, given my background: I was unsurprised to see a Pareto reference, but interested in the other places (outside of economics) he shows up?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Quote

I was surprised to see a Pareto reference. I'm always interested in how many places that guy shows up.

OK, given my background: I was unsurprised to see a Pareto reference, but interested in the other places (outside of economics) he shows up?

Google is your friend!

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Well Well jump over to Ebay 15 "partial Bills" that ingram found are on Ebay closing in four days. I thought these were already sold a few months ago?

[snowmman 3]

thanks skywhuffo
looks to be 15 of them? not sure if these are resales of the previous bills auctioned or sold or whether these are new ingram bills. He didn't sell everything he had at the last auction

to see 15

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=d.b.+cooper+ransom+money

to see what I think is the best one (it's a darker one too, which is rarer? It's a pretty full one)

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/47224-D-B-Cooper-1971-Ransom-Money-1963A-20-PCGS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem260315708620QQitemZ260315708620QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f0

(edit) higher resolution photos are available directly at the auction site
http://www.ha.com/common/search_items.php?txtSearch=d.b.+cooper&chkAuctions=1&chkInventory=1&ic=homepage_search&hdnSearch=true&optGlobalSearch=1