DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

(i think that was what snow said? is that true) that would make him 64 now, close to retirement and a strange age to be taking up contracts in foreign countries? Again sure it's possible...but unlikely?


See Orange1, you prove my point. Everyone is brilliant.
Again, there are always outliers, so we can never say "never". But it does at least make us wonder, right. When I posted my collection of details that Jo took affront at....it was funny, because the details were solely from her posts. I did no research. I was just writing what she said (spread over multiple posts)

Like the apparent in-usa to handle citizenship issues for wife? I assumed that meant new wife..which again would be strange for the age...could go thru and estimate the age of this marriage from Jo's posts...but the main point, as you say, is: it just seems odd.

Now, if all the ages are accurate, then being an outlier is enough to make it interesting in it's own right.

So true or false, we may never know. But it's interesting.

[snowmman 3]

it's amazing to think that a carved message of some sort could have been there. I can't begin to guess at what it could be, but that has never stopped me before: :)

I was thinking the placard was removed so Cooper could read it.

But now I'm thinking of Cooper looking at a "Warning" placard...and chuckling and pulling it out and saying "You're warning me? I'm warning you" by leaving his own little "placard".

The (I think second?) Dan Cooper comic book that was released in 1971. Amongst my crazy theories was whether Cooper might have seen it on a newsrack or something at the last minute, triggering a memory from his past.

The title of the '71 #17 comic was "S.O.S. dans l'Espace"

Cooper may also have been suffering some kind of schizophrenia, and maybe the initials were related to some alternate person. Or maybe the message was related to his grudge.

Ckret always went on about the money, but I think that was secondary. I think the grudge was primary.

There were many interesting events in the '60s in Seattle. The 1962 World's Fair. The 1963 National Parachute Championships at Issaquah. It's hard to figure out what things were really like there, back then.

Like for instance, here's a picture of Miss Issaquah flipping the power switch on for the new sewage treatment plant in Issaquah in 1968. I'd swear the mayor is looking at her boobies.

and the second is Elvis presenting a ham as a present at the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.

[Ckret 0]

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I have posted the full text before. It was evidently copied to the NY Times, The Wash. Post, the LA Times and the Seattle Times. It was signed "D.B. Cooper".
Supposedly typewritten?

I'm intrigued by the sentence structure and particular phrases.

For instance, in "situations of high risks". Both situations and risks are pluralized. You'll find that sometimes people singularize one and pluralize the other.

I've highlighted that I believe the "boasting man" line betrays a literature background.

I'm curious about how the letter was formatted on the page.

I think the claim of wearing a toupee may possibly have been correct. Cooper may have not worn a hat for that reason. The toupee may have been one that thickened thin hair on top..not one that glued to a bald pate. The initial Cooper sketch had very thin hair on top. Thicker hair appeared by the '81 sketch, say.

The face putty may have been a lie. Possibly to cover up the reason for truly tanned skin.

But I think there are two key misinterpretations in the letter. Speculating: The "Unfortunately I do have only 14 months to live" was not a statement about impending death. It was a statement about needing to live..i.e. have money ..for the next 14 months for some reason. It didn't imply death at the end of that period.

The "few fast grains of peace of mind" may have been a reference to emotional or nervous "breakdown" type issues. It comes after the description of a "life" of "turmoil, hunger and more hate".

An example of the complex sentence structure is this next sentence. Note "though" was used instead of say "although". And "nor" was used correctly.
Note the comma position.

"I don't blame people for hating me for what I've done nor do I blame anybody for wanting me to be caught and punished, though this can never happen"

Colons, semicolons and commas were used (apparently to my quick scan) correctly throughout the letter? I'm curious if any punctuation was missing in places (periods)

It would be a "fun" and "interesting" part of investigating this world famous case, if a copy of this letter could be made available. And any report that was written on it's analysis. For instance what kind of typewriter. And the envelope if available. Was that typewritten also? Stamp? (postmarked in Seattle apparently?)

If the envelope was available, there might be DNA on the glue?

I'm also intrigued by the claims of flying airlines in the period after the hijack already (by Dec, 71)

Thank you for your attention.
(edit) I'm drinking a Schlitz while writing this. Hopefully that de-uppities things sufficiently.

(edit) Oh, as a matter of course, I expect the letter and enveloper were dusted for prints? Were the only prints found from the newspaper folk? If so, does that say the writer took precautions to prevent prints? Would be interesting to know. A simple hoax letter (no fraud) is not very criminal. May indicate the writer actually was worried about prints?

Lots of "Cooper" letters have been sent to the FBI, this was the first one. In fact, every time something comes out on the news I get some. I actually know where this one is and will scan and post it when I get back from vacation (2 weeks).

I also remember reading a lab report about it but can't say 100% without going back so I'll wait posting on it. Safe to assume nothing came of it.

[Ckret 0]

Georger posted

"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements. Anyway, John ended up as my boss at Airline X for a while, which led directly to my retirement from the airline. I did, however, come to understand why he was chosen to carry the ransom to Dan Cooper on the airplane. I am convinced that his bosses secretly hoped the hijacker would shoot him."

reply:
This is not the person who brought the money to the plane and he was not naked. There was a hijacking at SeaTac after the Cooper case where an FBI agent had to carry the cash to the plane in his underware.

[Ckret 0]

"DB Cooper carved his initials on the rear
tail door of that 727-100 a/c... before jumping ......
I don't know who owned the aircraft at that time...
(if someone knows that would be great...)
Then DB Cooper bailed with his ransom.... but
the money showed up way south ..."

reply:
If someone put initials on anything it was after the Cooper case. The plane was processed several times and no one ever reported initials carved in the plane anywhere.

[Ckret 0]

"The (I think second?) Dan Cooper comic book that was released in 1971. Amongst my crazy theories was whether Cooper might have seen it on a newsrack or something at the last minute, triggering a memory from his past.

The title of the '71 #17 comic was "S.O.S. dans l'Espace""

reply:

I think the comic is a great find and has several possibilities. I will be highlighting it as part of "new" evidence in the case. I think it can be used to narrow the pool of possible "Coopers"

Not saying Cooper got the idea from the comic series but that he may have been a fan or collector. His exposure was in a small area of Europe or Quebec.

So now one of the theories; we are looking for a male 6’, brown eyes, dark complexion, dark hair, would have been in late 40’s to early 50 in 71, no distinguishing accent, possibly served in the military as part of a flight crew and collected or read Dan Cooper comic books.

If I put that out to the media maybe a new lead develops or at least makes enough of a buzz that someone who knows something comes forward.

[Ckret 0]

"Ckret always went on about the money, but I think that was secondary. I think the grudge was primary."

reply

You write it in past tense, I still go on and on about the money. If Cooper did this and his primary focus was a grudge it wasn’t much of one. If someone puts their life on the line to make a point they at least make one. Cooper never made his point; he never brought to light what it was he was so angry about. So then you have to default to the money making the point for him.

Well, that was not much of a point if it was solely a grudge. $200,000 to Northwest was not gong to be a blip on their radar. So if it was a grudge, then Cooper was not just an idiot, he was a flaming idiot.

Boy howdy that was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

"Ckret always went on about the money, but I think that was secondary. I think the grudge was primary."

reply

You write it in past tense, I still go on and on about the money. If Cooper did this and his primary focus was a grudge it wasn’t much of one. If someone puts their life on the line to make a point they at least make one. Cooper never made his point; he never brought to light what it was he was so angry about. So then you have to default to the money making the point for him.

Well, that was not much of a point if it was solely a grudge. $200,000 to Northwest was not gong to be a blip on their radar. So if it was a grudge, then Cooper was not just an idiot, he was a flaming idiot.

Boy howdy that was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no that was good. It does outline the "it's just the money" theory. It may be right. I only think about the grudge thing because of the behavior of other hijackers, not because of anything Cooper did. I could easily be exactly wrong.

[snowmman 3]

not asking ckret a question here, so he can ignore. Was wondering about feedback from others.

Ckret has mentioned that it's quite possible the release of the composite sketches hindered the investigation, and maybe just the simple verbal descriptions would have helped more early on.

It got me thinking about how the sketches inherently have embedded information in them, that was exchanged between the witness and the sketch artist. Maybe stuff that wasn't exchanged during the FBI interview.

So I was wondering if looking at the sketches (maybe look at them serially), what "features" pop out at you that you would verbalize.

I'm not good at this, but like would you say things like
"long thin nose"
"heavy eyelids"
"thin eyebrows"
'horizontal creases on forehead"
"thin lips"
"wrinkles, sags below eyes"
"broad chin (or ???)"
"rounded shoulders?"
"beard may grow quickly"

I'm more curious about how people perceive a composite sketch.

The ears, hairline, have been talked about, but we've not discussed much how you would describe the information inherent in the sketch to someone.

[snowmman 3]

Looking at the composites, I am reminded of the following fashion tips!
I have no idea what was prevalent in 1971.
But assuming the artist didn't just "draw whatever"..I would say

"long point straight collar, well fitted to Cooper's neck size."

Cooper may have had a selection of ties. His shirt collection may have been more focused, preference-wise.

Quote

Shirt collars vary and the style you choose can greatly affect your look:
Round, wide faces benefit from straight or long point collars. Avoid spreads and round collars.
Long, oval faces can use a medium-spread collar.
Long neck. Tab collars or pin collars look great.
Short neck. Pick a collar that rides lower and shows more of the neck.
Thin or slight build: Avoid collars that are too big for your neck. Bigger collars may make your shoulders look narrower.

[Ckret 0]

There are certain attributes associated with decay, or its nicer cousin aging, that all humans experience in common. Therefore, we all have a common understanding of what it means when a witness states, “the person appeared to be in his 20’s.” Without going into specifics with the witness, a sketch artist is trained on what those are; as well as 30’s 40’s 50’s and so on.

The artist will automatically add those components to the sketch because they are generally the same for everyone, wrinkles, sags, thin lips, droopy or heavy eyelids…. Also the same for every one is placement of parts, two eyes where eyes go, a nose where the nose goes and so on. The details that are different in everyone are (macro) female or male and (micro) symmetry, color and size of parts.

So a large portion of the data is given in just stating male or female and age, from there the focus narrows. A rough sketch is developed and then shown to the witness who refines it until they feel the subject depicted in the sketch is the subject they saw or witnessed doing said crime.

In a case like Cooper, where you have more than one witness it comes down to weight and majority rules. If you have four witnesses and three agree on the sketch and one doesn’t; and the three that agree had the best view, then you go with the one that has the most agreement.

[snowmman 3]

thanks ckret. it sounds like based on your experience and the age issues, we shouldn't expect that there's much additional info in the sketches. You have the expertise here, obviously.

[georger 197]

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1. The night clerk was in his 20's in the 70's not now..
2. It is not my call if the FBI does not investigate his claim and his statement.
3. It is the call of the witness, if he decides to speak with the media - my advice is to be quiet and let the FBI do its thing...his coming forward publically is not worth what it would do to his life. The example of that is evidenced in this forum.

Answer
1. I am not aware anyone thought the night clerk had not yet been born at the time of the hijacking (seeing as 1971 is 37 years ago). I think the question snow asked, at least as i understood, not stated explicitly: a night clerk (or any hotel clerk job really) is not exactly the most intellectually demanding job out there. Sure, that is true of a number of teaching jobs as well, but would it be normal to expect someone already doing a job like that well into their 20s to then go and get a teaching degree and end up being so good that they get contratcs in China? And the answer could be yes maybe, but at face value, it would be unlikely.
btw if the night clerk was 27 in 1971 (i think that was what snow said? is that true) that would make him 64 now, close to retirement and a strange age to be taking up contracts in foreign countries? Again sure it's possible...but unlikely?
2. Agreed. So why are there so many posts from you lambasting them for not doing anything about him?
3. Not worth what it would do to his life?? A second wife or whatever is hardly unforgiveable, and far less of interest anwyay than what he claims to know. I think this reason that you keep using is very strange. Far more people have real stuff to hide and still come forward to report on crimes. It's not like he would be the first witness in history to have his credibility called into question. Hey, he would be a hero if he helped crack the DB Cooper case anyway, so if his version is correct I can hardly see why he wouldn't go public. Of course, if what it would do to his life reveals deception of you and people despise him for that, sure then I understand it.

I think we are beating a dead horse here. Isn't that
rather obvious since at least 2005, by Jo's own
account (10 years had already been consumed
by the time of her post in 2005 she says).

Obsessive-compulsive. It isn't going to change
unless you enjoy joining her in it.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

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I think we are beating a dead horse here.
Georger

probably right.
Some consultants were hired. Best suggestions were:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Create a DZ.com thread to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other skydiving web sites to see how they ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

[georger 197]

Quote

"Ckret always went on about the money, but I think that was secondary. I think the grudge was primary."

reply

You write it in past tense, I still go on and on about the money. If Cooper did this and his primary focus was a grudge it wasn’t much of one. If someone puts their life on the line to make a point they at least make one. Cooper never made his point; he never brought to light what it was he was so angry about. So then you have to default to the money making the point for him.

Well, that was not much of a point if it was solely a grudge. $200,000 to Northwest was not gong to be a blip on their radar. So if it was a grudge, then Cooper was not just an idiot, he was a flaming idiot.

Boy howdy that was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply> Finally! someone agrees with me.

$200k to me has always seemed a paultry sum
given the risk and consequnces. $200k even in '71 wasn't that much in relative terms.

Grudge or not, poor or not, what this brings up is
scales-of-consciousness. We know he got giddy
at the sight of the money and starts giving it away.
Duhhhhhh! Earth to Cooper?

We may be dealing with a brain-damaged individual here .... which Tina described as sad?

A guy who reads comic books and enjoys them and
thinks they are real? Who may act normal in the short term on the surface (saying very little) and
be an incoherent lunatic under the surface.

Maybe his note(s) were as much to remind himself
as to issue demands! ?

And, by the way, such a person might have a very keen social perception and easily discriminate stern
(Schaffner) from sympathetic-cooperative (Mucklow)
and select quickly for the sympathetic (Mucklow)
and want her by his side for support continually. It
cuts several ways: support, hostage, assistance, trust, willdo what I say...

Georger

[snowmman 3]

Quote

A guy who reads comic books and enjoys them and
thinks they are real?

Comic books are quite entrenched in Japanese culture. Of a different sort. We all make judgment calls I suppose on what is high or low quality. History is defined by the winners I suppose.

[shredder 0]

You write it in past tense, I still go on and on about the money. If Cooper did this and his primary focus was a grudge it wasn’t much of one. If someone puts their life on the line to make a point they at least make one. Cooper never made his point; he never brought to light what it was he was so angry about. So then you have to default to the money making the point for him.

Well, that was not much of a point if it was solely a grudge. $200,000 to Northwest was not gong to be a blip on their radar. So if it was a grudge, then Cooper was not just an idiot, he was a flaming idiot.

Boy howdy that was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ckret 0]

And yet another point as to why Cooper was a novice at best. Cooper made no demand in regard to denominations. Your right, my "maker-of-small-pieces" friend, weight is very important in regard to load and rate of descent. Anyone with knowledge would have most likely asked for hundreds, decreasing weight (from approximately 20 lbs to 4 lbs) and size dramatically.

In fact, if he had asked for hundreds it would have all fit in the reserve container which he could have securely clipped to the webbing of the NB6 harness

[snowmman 3]

Quote

In fact, if he had asked for hundreds it would have all fit in the reserve container which he could have securely clipped to the webbing of the NB6 harness

He tasks me! And I shall have him. I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.

Ckret: I was probing this issue of clipping the belly reserve to the webbing of the NB6. No one backed me up on it. Do you have data? Have you tried it. It would be very interesting to know this detail for sure. I have no idea.

[Ckret 0]

KHAAAANNNN!!!

I think it is the only logical conclusion one can make. He grabbed the NB6 because it is what he knew. When he realized there were no D rings, he clipped the belly reserve to the webbing because it was his only choice.

There was no need to dismantle the second belly reserve for parts, he already had one open and cut apart. He already had tied off the money bag, so the money was secured and ready to go. The only use of the extra reserve had to be for its intended purpose. When he realized his only choice was the webbing that’s what he did.

[shredder 0]

Your right, my "maker-of-small-pieces" friend,

Lol! Thank you for tirelessly answering the same questions over and over again. So $200,000 in $100 bills only weighs 4 pounds? Hmm... I will keep this in mind when I win the lottery.

Learn from the past - don't live in it!

[377 20]

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In fact, if he had asked for hundreds it would have all fit in the reserve container which he could have securely clipped to the webbing of the NB6 harness

He tasks me! And I shall have him. I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up.

Ckret: I was probing this issue of clipping the belly reserve to the webbing of the NB6. No one backed me up on it. Do you have data? Have you tried it. It would be very interesting to know this detail for sure. I have no idea.

Riggers will have to chime in here, but I just tried snapping my surplus belly reserve to main harness webbing and the reserve snaps are way too small to accommodate the webbing even if you fold it. Try as I might there was no way to snap the reserve to the main webbing. RIGGERS? Can it be done?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Riggers will have to chime in here, but I just tried snapping my surplus belly reserve to main harness webbing and the reserve snaps are way too small to accommodate the webbing even if you fold it. Try as I might there was no way to snap the reserve to the main webbing. RIGGERS? Can it be done?

377

I posted some snaps before that showed (mostly) the big hooks on the chest reserve Ckret has. I guessed at the hardware. They were larger than what Wolf said were B-12 size. Do you have a link to a picture of the size snap you tested with? I'm wondering if they're smaller than Ckret's.
I'll try attaching the snaps again.

(edit) ev1 has hook in mid-upper left
ev3a is fuzzy but you can see bottom of reserve and hooks.
ms70121 was my guess at the spec for the link based on 71 timeframe chest? and from the photo. Would be nice if someone could just say which hook is probably there.

(edit) b-12 snap added for comparison

[377 20]

Mine are B 12 size. Sorry no photos.

Wouldn't be too hard to tie the snaps to the webbing with parachute cord.

All the belly reserves I jumped had the same small snaps.
Once snapped to the reserve D rings on the main harness there wasn't much room left in the snap which tell you how small they were.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[HurlinGirlie 0]

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Remember ZING. He used to post till the moderator kicked him out, but he wasn't a bad guy - it was just a misunderstanding and he was defending me...I felt like it was my fault.

I kept in touch with him by phone every few months but have not been able to reach him for a 2 or 3 months. I just got an email. He is not well and I know that some of you must know him personally so I am sure he would love to hear from you.

Couldn't we talk Quade to letting him back in the forum - ZING has told me in the past how much he misses it. I miss him and I never met him, but I consider him a friend.

What happen to Zing?


Hope nothing serious, rumors of his demise have been circulation for YEARS!

Rumour has it that he had a heart attack.