DB Cooper

[BigSky 2]

Jo, have you tried looking at Goggle Earth satellite images. I was just playing around on there following some of you directions and you can see quite a bit.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[Albert18 0]

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... Albert, I have not trusted you in the past because I do not know who you are - but, I trust that if you are in that area and are able to find anything that you will be honest and forthcoming...about my leading you to it.

Don't trust me???? I'm not a skydiver so you can trust me!!!!!

I did find Scotton corner though. According to mapquest it is in the area of NE 199th St., just east of highway 503 on the southern edge of Battle Ground.

That railroad track does goe northeast from Brush Prairie but then it turns and goes north/northwest through Battle Ground.

I don't live in the area so I can't look around.

[Albert18 0]

My mistake, that is scuba divers you can't trust, especially if you are on a honeymoon with one.

Protect your air hose at all times.

[snowmman 3]

from the web:

...started reading the Dan Cooper series .... In short, Dan Cooper is a Canadian military pilot, flying usually fighters. He's often acting as a chase or test pilot and making international exchanges with other air forces. I like it especially since it's a Canadian pilot (while most comics and other books have Americans as main heroes).

One episode was named Silver Fox, in which he was the squadron leader. During flight, he was sometimes called "Fox leader"...
The Silver Fox squadron really exists. It's the 441th TFS (Tactical Fighter Squadron) based in Cold Lake, Alberta.

(edit) 441 Squadron:
Nickname: Silver Fox
Motto: Stalk And Kill
patch attached

[377 20]

I met a US civilian pilot who flew clandestine airdrop missions in Cambodia and Laos in the 60s. They didn't use 727s and he was not aware of any 727s being used for those kinds of missions... but you never know what you don't know. He thought a 727 would be a poor choice given the availability of far more suitable aircraft for airdrops.

Even C 130 Hercules don't take off with the ramp down, so the Cooper as loadmaster/jumpmaster idea runs into some friction here. Asking that the NWA 727 takeoff with the stairs down indicates some actual (or perhaps feigned?) naivety about paradrop operations.

Given his impatience, it is unlikely that Cooper would add to the delay by knowingly asking for a takeoff configuration that was not do-able. If Cooper thought a 727 (or any rear ventral exit plane) could take off with the ramp or stairs down, it could indicate that he had no actual experience in dropping people or supplies from tailgate aircraft.

Cooper's reported giddiness or child like response upon receiving the money strikes me as odd. I just don't know enough about psychology to decipher that clue. I somehow don't see a hardened military special ops veteran like Wolfgang acting that way, but maybe I have just been indoctrinated by watching too many action movies.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[HST 0]

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Every time I find an H. quote vehemently stating who Cooper wasn't, I say to myself..."Okay that's who Cooper was"
(edit)
NOW WHY THE HECK DID H. SAY 48 HERE?

Because, according to Ralph (as he has said elsewhere), 48 was the median age estimated by eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen Cooper. The estimates ranged from early 40s to mid-50s, but 48 was the median.

[georger 194]

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I think I have said this before but if anyone wants me to go over and try to pinpoint some of these locations I will be more than happy to do so. I live in Portland so this is a short drive.

REPLY: So if I understand this latest transfiguration,
DB Cooper bailed in the Orchards-Hockinson area
after or during a turn at Battle Ground VOR. Two
simple maps attached -

(If I am stating this not correctly please somebody correct this)

Given this new DZ, how does the money get to Tina's
Bar after 1974? Air drift, water route, on foot, grizzly bear, camel traders,?

(1) There is no obvious water route.
(2) There is no obvious down hill gravity route.
(3) There is no obvious air drift or throw path unless
305 was significantly higher than 10000 feet and DBC
bailed south of the Sluggo-Carr drop area.
(3A) Sluggo map is wrong and 305 was in a different
location.
(3B) Sluggo map is incomplete and 305 engaged in
tactics meant to throw DBC off the ladder and 305
viered off V23 during this tactic.
(4) The money was walked or transported to an area near the Columbia where it or some piece of it later is washed to Tina's Bar.

It is worth noting, if Im reading the FP correctly, that
Toutle where the palcard was found is roughly west of
the S-C revised flight path which is consistent with a
SE to NW wind drift. The same drift direction applies
to Cooper himself, if he got his chute open. But, this
still places Cooper in an untennable position so far
as money winding up in the Tina's Bar area by direct deposit.

And if Cooper died on impact in the Orchards-Hockinsn
area how does money get to Tina's Bar?

Geoeger

[snowmman 3]

related trivia:

Edward Daley's last World Airways flight out of Danang
took off with stairs down, the cargo doors open (full of people), grenade damage to flaps, guns fired at cockpit. Over 300 people on board. Dead soldier hanging out of the wheel well, preventing gear retraction.

There are many accounts online, some first person, but this tv news report from back then (youtube) is a particularly gripping reminder of the times back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoA02PmueH4

(edit) starting at 1:38 you can see Ed Daly standing on the stairs as the plane is taxiing, with a gun in his hand, and people chasing on the runway. At 3:22 they're at 6000 ft, with stairs down, and a guy hanging on the stairs.

(edit) I'll note this seems to be the existence proof of what a lot of people told me wasn't possible. Doesn't mean much, but I find it interesting. Don't know if stairs were locked down or not. I guess not.

[HST 0]

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Cooper's reported giddiness or child like response upon receiving the money strikes me as odd. I just don't know enough about psychology to decipher that clue. I somehow don't see a hardened military special ops veteran like Wolfgang acting that way, but maybe I have just been indoctrinated by watching too many action movies.

377

IMO, there's too much second-hand interpretation involved for any real clue to come of that one. I don't think we can even begin to eliminate or incriminate any suspect, regardless of background, because of it.

Aside from the natural problems of having to go off of Tina's account (as is the case for so much of this), what's "giddy" or "child-like" to one person - let alone Tina - might be something different to someone else. It could mean smiling, laughing, dancing - lots of different things or combos. In any case, generally being happy at getting the money strikes me as a natural reaction for just about anyone (or any criminal, to be more specific) who's going to such ridiculous lengths to obtain it.

[snowmman 3]

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Every time I find an H. quote vehemently stating who Cooper wasn't, I say to myself..."Okay that's who Cooper was"
(edit)
NOW WHY THE HECK DID H. SAY 48 HERE?

Because, according to Ralph (as he has said elsewhere), 48 was the median age estimated by eyewitnesses who claimed to have seen Cooper. The estimates ranged from early 40s to mid-50s, but 48 was the median.

Thanks. Are you theorizing, or did you talk to Ralph?

[377 20]

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[reply

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]You could get small analog tunable air band radios for under $20 back then. They were just AM transistor radios with an additional freq converter stage. They were not very selective which was an asset when trying to find transmissions. If the signal was strong, as it would be if you were inside the airplane making the transmission, it would leak through no matter where you were tuned enabling you to retune to the exact frequency and hear both sides of the conversation. I used one inside an airliner parked at the gate and you could easily hear all comms including an update on catering truck arrival, and the tower inquiring about expected pushback time.

Do you realize what you just did with that post? Incriminated yourself - how old are you?
reply]

Jo,

Glad to see you still have your sense of humor. As much as I want a Norjak suspect list number I am too young to be a viable Cooper suspect. I was only 22 in 1971.

If you discount my age I'd have made a good suspect because in 1971 I was broke, had a lot of experience jumping surplus gear, had a collection of airliner flight/tech manuals, and had visited Seattle... but I'd NEVER EVER have picked the NB 6 rig if offered a Pioneer sport rig and a reserve as an alternative.

I think Guru 312 is the only person on this forum who might have a real Norjak list number. I wonder if Ckret would release the list if we filed a FOIA request? If he did, it would probably have most names redacted.

Maybe we should just make our own list and official Norjak suspect number t shirts. We all know who is at the top of your list Jo and I'd bet the rest of your list is blank.

BTW, you have hinted that Duane might have used a railroad hand propelled "pump car" to exit the area by RR track. I have an interest in RR history. I think it is unlikely that any railroads in the NW had pump cars in active service in 1971.

Also, RRs are very careful to secure anything that might be put onto a mainline by vandals. An idle pump car would be on a siding having been shunted off a main line via a track switch. Track switches are normally padlocked with hardened locks to prevent anyone but RR people from throwing them. Even if Duane found a pump car on a siding he'd likely have been unable to get it back on the main track without breaking or picking a tough "tamper proof" lock on the track switch mechanism.

Good luck on your NW odyssey.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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[377 20]

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related trivia:

Edward Daley's last World Airways flight out of Danang
took off with stairs only half closed, the cargo doors open (full of people), grenade damage to flaps, guns fired at cockpit. Over 300 people on board. Dead soldier hanging out of the wheel well, preventing gear retraction.

There are many accounts online, some first person, but this tv news report from back then (youtube) is a particularly gripping reminder of the times back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoA02PmueH4

(edit) starting at 1:38 you can see Ed Daly standing on the stairs as the plane is taxiing, with a gun in his hand, and people chasing on the runway. At 3:22 they're at 6000 ft, with stairs down, and a guy hanging on the stairs.

Wow! You find everything Snowman. There is no real search engine at Google, it's just you typing really really fast answers.

I concede that a 727 can take off with stairs deployed, but it isn't normal operations for any tailgate aircraft where the ramp or stairs extends below the retracted position when deployed. Anything unusual that Cooper asked which raised serious safety of flight questions would add delay, and he was in a hurry. I don't see a loadmaster asking for a stairs down takeoff. He might ask that the bulkhead door be open, but why risk a tailstrike when it isn't necessary?

Some planes like Skyvans have a tailgate that goes up not down for airdrops.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Wow! You find everything Snowman. There is no real search engine at Google, it's just you typing really really fast answers.

Actually, I am the Google. I have to answer a couple billion other queries in between this stuff ;)

(edit) I believe the most important clue is he first asked for door open/stairs deployed in air. Then changed it to door open/stairs down. You saw that in the latest transcript (it's at Sluggo's site, from ckret), right 377?

[1969912 0]

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I caught wind of a rumor - OK, Ckret, is there any truth to this?

The FBI or others are actually searching the area I have proposed for yrs to be the DZ as you guys call it. In the area where the pipeline and the railroad tracks intersect. This is between Scotton corner and Brush Prairie.

Is there any truth to this or is it rumor?

Fascinating. Can you provide a link? EDIT to add: Or more info? Source?

So where is Ckret?

Possible new movie coming up: Ckret and Sluggo's Excellent Adventure

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[377 20]

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Wow! You find everything Snowman. There is no real search engine at Google, it's just you typing really really fast answers.

Actually, I am the Google. I have to answer a couple billion other queries in between this stuff ;)

(edit) I believe the most important clue is he first asked for door open/stairs deployed in air. Then changed it to door open/stairs down. You saw that in the latest transcript (it's at Sluggo's site, from ckret), right 377?

Nope, I missed that latest transcript. I'll have to take a look. If he first asked for an air deployment he still might be a loadmaster or similar. Maybe he had a good reason for changing the request.

You and Sluggo are just too fast for me. I am a 286 and you guys are overclocked liquid cooled Intel latest model uPs operating in parallel and running some personally customized Linux OS. I just see your contrails and hear the sonic booms.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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I caught wind of a rumor - OK, Ckret, is there any truth to this?

The FBI or others are actually searching the area I have proposed for yrs to be the DZ as you guys call it. In the area where the pipeline and the railroad tracks intersect. This is between Scotton corner and Brush Prairie.

Is there any truth to this or is it rumor?

Fascinating. Can you provide a link?

So where is ckret?

Possibe new movie coming up: Ckret and Sluggo's Excellent Adventure

Did anyone see the movie about the Zodiac killer? I can see the basis for a similar one here. That movie was all about painstaking research and not much action.

DB Cooper wouldn't be as spine chilling as the Zodiac film, but it would sell some tickets. Clint Eastwood could be an aged DB Cooper. He is far from a perfect match but if he were in the movie it would make money. Somewhere in Alaska a script is being written...

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[AggieDave 6]

Actually a movie would be really good period based and based on what is actually known. Add some drama with FBI talking and arguing during the crisis, the helicopter taking off, a heated conversation about the rig at the DZ... The end could be Cooper walking down the stairs wearing his rig, walking off into the darkness. Fade to black then credits.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[georger 194]

You have forgotten a cogent line of exploration:

Somatotyping. Endomorphic dyslocations in the Ectoplasm.
And, "channeling". Hire a medium ?

[georger 194]

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I met a US civilian pilot who flew clandestine airdrop missions in Cambodia and Laos in the 60s. They didn't use 727s and he was not aware of any 727s being used for those kinds of missions... but you never know what you don't know. He thought a 727 would be a poor choice given the availability of far more suitable aircraft for airdrops.

Even C 130 Hercules don't take off with the ramp down, so the Cooper as loadmaster/jumpmaster idea runs into some friction here. Asking that the NWA 727 takeoff with the stairs down indicates some actual (or perhaps feigned?) naivety about paradrop operations.

Given his impatience, it is unlikely that Cooper would add to the delay by knowingly asking for a takeoff configuration that was not do-able. If Cooper thought a 727 (or any rear ventral exit plane) could take off with the ramp or stairs down, it could indicate that he had no actual experience in dropping people or supplies from tailgate aircraft.

Cooper's reported giddiness or child like response upon receiving the money strikes me as odd. I just don't know enough about psychology to decipher that clue. I somehow don't see a hardened military special ops veteran like Wolfgang acting that way, but maybe I have just been indoctrinated by watching too many action movies.

377

It is what it is. Some things you can take at face value . I know that is impossible to believe much less follow in the current gridlock where everyone and everything has a conpsiracy behind it or private information or
an ulterior motive. Giddiness is as giddiness does!
Even my grandmother who never graduated gradeschool could figure that one out. She lived at
Vancouver on 11-24 and "just knew" this event would
never get resolved. She said that was obvious two days
after the event. Smart woman.

[georger 194]

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Cooper's reported giddiness or child like response upon receiving the money strikes me as odd. I just don't know enough about psychology to decipher that clue. I somehow don't see a hardened military special ops veteran like Wolfgang acting that way, but maybe I have just been indoctrinated by watching too many action movies.

377

REPLY: Tina knew "giddy" first hand. She knew what
it implied, in the context of the money. I guess it takes life-experience to know.


















IMO, there's too much second-hand interpretation involved for any real clue to come of that one. I don't think we can even begin to eliminate or incriminate any suspect, regardless of background, because of it.

Aside from the natural problems of having to go off of Tina's account (as is the case for so much of this), what's "giddy" or "child-like" to one person - let alone Tina - might be something different to someone else. It could mean smiling, laughing, dancing - lots of different things or combos. In any case, generally being happy at getting the money strikes me as a natural reaction for just about anyone (or any criminal, to be more specific) who's going to such ridiculous lengths to obtain it.

[377 20]

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You have forgotten a cogent line of exploration:

Somatotyping. Endomorphic dyslocations in the Ectoplasm.
And, "channeling". Hire a medium ?

Georger,

No shortage of those types on Kauai. I just got back from a one week vacation there. Bulletin boards offering the services of local residents are everywhere and not a carpenter or mechanic on any of em. Spritual coaches, channelers, energy healers, mystics, witches, aura analysts, rebirthers... you name it they have it.

I hate to be a killjoy skeptic, but who rounds up the cattle and mends the fences there?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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Every time I find an H. quote vehemently stating who Cooper wasn't, I say to myself..."Okay that's who Cooper was"
(edit)
NOW WHY THE HECK DID H. SAY 48 HERE?

That is universal law. In real estate you take the highest most popular selling price and the lowest most popular selling price the mediam priced home is calculated that way. NOTE: I did not say the highest and lowest price- it is qualified by number of homes sold in each category.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, have you tried looking at Goggle Earth satellite images. I was just playing around on there following some of you directions and you can see quite a bit.

I have a real hard time with maps on the computer. What I need is an up to date ground map the same size and area as this old Topography map - to lay one over the other and then we get roads and houses and all of those things that would be like my making a trip there and then I might find the exact roads we turned on and off of. I would be able to pin-point the things and the places he took me. It would be better if the the google map was also dated 1979.

The map I am working with is 1:100 000- scale metric of Vancouver, Wa It is a geological survey map.

Wow, to be able to overlay two maps like that - would be a dream come true.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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Somatyping.

"The available evidence suggests that the correlations between physical characteristics and personality traits are nearly always too small to be trusted for the needs of individual prediction."

Possibily one could imagine this was key to Cooper's "not getting caught"...i.e. stereotypes.

[Ckret 0]

In regard to the various logs that are out there, I think it would be a mistake to take any of them on face value, especially those dealing with Cooper and his demands. All communication came through Mucklow, to the cockpit, to flight ops. No doubt each took their turn to apply their understanding as to what was communicated.

When you overlay the interviews with the logs things begin to clear. Cooper did not originally request the airstairs be extended in flight, he requested that after his demand that they be extended at takeoff.

Just my little take on it but feel free to formulate what you will.