DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Cossey kicked Mayfield's ass in 1969.
Mayfield wanted revenge. Took 2 years to plan it.
evidence attached from 1969 news article.
This theory is obviously true...no reason to even debate!

actually I just wanted to post this cause I know you guys like historical jump trivia.

Who can ID the canopy?

[highspeeddirt 0]

para-commander

[snowmman 3]

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para-commander

Here's another shot, same article

(edit) actually not sure who's who in the photos. neither may be cossey. This looks like a different canopy? I think at least one must be cossey.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Jo,

Please allow me to try to explain some things:

Quote

I do not care that the forum is reworking the fight path. I also realize that the technology of today makes it feasible to do this, but when in question about certain things on these reports the information should be verified if at all possible.

The “flight path is not being “reworked.” There is an attempt underway to better understand the flight path and its timing. The marks on the 1971 Seattle Sectional have been there since 1971. The red tic-marks were placed by human hands. Someone unknown to me. Nothing has been done to alter those tic-marks. The modern technology employed is just some mapping software that allows those tic-marks to be given reasonably accurate coordinates, and to be able to share those coordinates in a digital form.

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The added minute that is in doubt - turn or no turn - Radazcek would know the answer to that one. I have suggested that someone in the forum contact him - Ckret should be that person and tell him he is calling on a personal basis and what he is doing. Ask for help from those who are still able to help.

Rataczak was flying the plane. He would have no idea where he was at the level of resolution that is shown by the tic-marks on the chart. Asking Rataczak about the tic-marks is like asking you about the octane rating of the gasoline in your tank.

Those marks were placed there by analysis of radar data (possibly from more than one source). I’m sure Rataczak was involved with the team that determined where the likely drop zone was, but his expertise would have been as a pilot. The person or persons who put the tic-marks on the chart were probably radar personnel. The person who should be contacted is whoever made the tic-marks. And who should contact them? Not Ckret, you yourself, have said he is always in an official capacity, so maybe a civilian should contact him. Maybe you should contact him.

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I do not believe the co-pilot who is retired uses a computer, but I am sure he would be willing to help if he knew what was going on and help get the information correct.

See paragraph above.

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Take the points that are the most important that seem to give variance to the fight path and ask him to sit down in person with someone who has the knowledge (such as Sluggo) and clean up the information we have had made accessible to us by the FBI.

I’m honored that you would think I would be a good person to gather information. As much as I would LOVE to talk with Rataczak, I would want to ask him about other things. Things like; “the pressure bump,” what he meant by; “Not yet to Portland, but definitely approaching the suburbs.” Information that he has already given investigators a thousand times.

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Ckret is not the one to sit down with him - as he is not knowledgable of the that material any more than I am.

I don’t know how knowledgeable Ckret is about the material I produced. But I do know that he accepts it, reads it, and gives it the level of consideration it deserves. As much grief as I give Ckret in my posts and blogs, he is the best thing that has happened to NORJAK in the last 30 years. He has prejudices, we all do, but I am confident that; faced with information that is contrary to his paradigms, he would do what’s right to further the investigation. If I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t waste time sending stuff to him.

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The one and two minute thing you guys are playing with can be given 1st hand now - but a yr from now that might not be available...from the only man living who can answer the question. Please do not send Ckret - send one of our very good techies - I believe there are three of them..I do not know who is the most qualified.

I will put in $100. to help with the expense. How many of you are willling to help send one of these guys to talk to Bill the co-pilot. I am sure Ckret could set the meeting up. I am not sure the engineer is still alive.

And I will put in $100 to send someone to talk to the members of the “DZ Tasks Force” (if any are still alive). As I said before, Rataczak is the wrong person to talk to about the flight path. And I would gladly represent a group of interested parties. But do you think any of us can make THAT happen. Those people are private citizens, they aren’t “at our pleasure.”


And finally:

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Guys,
Ckret is FBI and when he is working or on his own time he represents the FBI and should act accordingly.

He should not make quesses about a case to the public and if he does make a quess or propose a theory he should first state what the case file says and identify that as such and then state his theory and identify that as such.

He apologized for posting Duane's record on the forum as the information had never been given to me. That night I wanted to truely wanted to die.

I had been unable to inform my family members before this was exposed - this was NOT right.

I expect him to be very careful about posting because he is a FBI agent and should at all times behave like one - on the job and off the job when it comes to the information available.

The mistakes he made cause me to wonder how qualified our federal agencies are. He has taken the corrections in a good manner, but some should never have been made and are very elementary... Such as the position of Bill the co-pilot.

Jo, you know that I consider you a friend. I did before, I do now, and I will in the future. I’m one of the few people on this forum that are aware of exactly how ill you are right now. If others really understood, just what your day is like, they would probably give you a little more slack. But, even though they are unaware of your situation, they have given you slack.

Personal attacks on Ckret are not helpful. In fact, it’s sort of like cutting open the goose that lays the golden eggs. When Ckret showed up on this board he became a valued asset to this community. But you took the cumulative frustration toward the FBI that has built up in you and took it out on Ckret. Ckret, like all of us, has a boss. He works in an organization. That organization has a structure, a budget, a mission, and priorities. You nor I (or any member of this community) are a part of that structure. Sure FBI agents are public servants, but they don’t work directly for us. Demanding a specific action from Ckret is like demanding that you letter carrier deliver your mail at a particular time.

A few days ago, I gave you some advice. I am saddened that you chose to ignore it. I think you owe this community an apology. I think you owe quade an apology (I dare say, he would not have allowed anyone else to make so many personal attacks and stay on the board) and I think you owe Ckret an apology.

We are all here for a reason (an ulterior motive, as it were). You want to prove Duane was Cooper, some want to prove that Christiansen was Cooper, some want to prove Mayfield was Cooper, others want to prove McCoy was Cooper, some (like me) just want to see the crime solved and hope to be a small part of it. Lets work as a team to each achieve our individual goals.

With respect (and concern),

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Okay you guys win. I am not good with the words or making myself understood. Seeing all that was written I realize that no one understood what I was saying and there is nothing I can do about this.

All I was trying to do was point out that Ckret made very obvious errors which many of you have commented on in the past...and have corrected him.

I admitted that I know nothing about all of the things regarding the prediction of the landing zone and said so. I also mentioned that it seemed to be the right thing to do.

In my simple mind and uneducated in such matters as flight pattern I made suggestions that seem logical to me, but Sluggo, you have made me aware that the pilot is not the one to talk to.

I was not slamming anyone - and if I did I AM SORRY.

I will be going to WA in Oct if my health permits - I will try to walk the areas he took me to, but some are no longer there. I sent Cret a couple of private emails therefore he should have understood where I was coming from.

Not one word was said about Duane being Cooper in the post that has been criticized - I thought I was trying to help like everyone else...but dumb old me just says all the wrong words.

I still do not understand why the
FBI ---
1. Was able to loose the cigarette butts.
2. Not able to find the hotel report regarding the night clerk
3. Not able to find the report from the FBI agents who interviewed someone from Jefferson Prison who claimed to know who Cooper was.
4. Not able to identify the individuals who Duane was involved with for the crime that sent him to Jefferson (two other men).
5. Claimed that the print Master file was made using 1944 prints from Weber.....show me the proof.
6. Never interviewed or investigated the man who threatened me - when I all I did was tell him what Duane told me before he died. No details. The man was very disturbed by what Duane had said.
7. Cannot tell me why a 17 yr, 6 time looser would be given a Commutation of Sentence with no attached files.
8. Is unable to produce the prison files for John C. Collins with prints from that incarceration.


So I will never know if I can't find out on my own. Only because of what I do know do I find the above things important - that it is all linked together and that the answers to the above will provide the connection the FBI needs.

The items listed above are not - I said or he said - but things that can and should have in my opinion have been investigated in 1967.

The only way to address these things is in a formal letter to the FBI and others and not in the forum. If Duane was not Cooper then he knew who was - otherwise my life with Duane was one big hallucination. Its been a Helluv Ride! So Long.

P.S.
I will post the rest of the pics that Snowmman asked for, but other than that I will limit my posts to a couple of times a wk. if the subject matter warrants it and if I have been asked a question.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

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...Duane was not Cooper...my life with Duane was one big hallucination.

The most true thing posted so far.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyjack71 0]

Correction:

"If Duane was Not Cooper" - You left out the most important part.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[AggieDave 6]

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"If Duane was Not Cooper" - You left out the most important part.

That's already been proven, so its really a moot point.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[snowmman 3]

one weakness we have is that people throw out cherry-picked data, and imply that something circumstantial, increases the likelihood of someone being a good suspect. This is only true if we know how common the same data is in the population we're selecting from.

For instance: what percentage of the US population currently have criminal records of some kind? Are we looking for someone with or without? I could argue without, due to lack of being found. But there could be other reasons for not being found. So arguably criminal record is of no value as a filter.


I don't think we all have a common knowledge base, so implying the presence of the attribute in the population doesn't really work. For instance here's a statistic:
I was musing about the likelihood of solving the Cooper case, and looking at bank robbery resolutions. I believe the number is that about 60% of US bank robberies are resolved, with the likelihood going down with time to original event. What did people think the number was, and am I wrong or right?

I was looking at the collection of things about Duane, and I have no idea how that would compare to a similar cherry-picked list of interesting sounding things from other suspects. Note my fun Mayfield/Cossey thing could be worked up into a cherry picked bit of "data" if you wanted to. Hell the team was called "Bandits" ..get the cuffs! ..but that's obviously stupid. It's Grade B movie stuff, which we descend into all the time.

Obviously there's been lots of people that believe they really know who Cooper is. And I suspect they have their own cherry picked lists.

On some of those things Jo listed, I have no idea how common some of them are. For all I know lots of people have commuted sentences with no files. I'm not sure why Jo believes that it's obvious it's unique.

Lots of people have delusions too. Infinitely rational attempts at understanding people are sometimes wasted. Humans are not machines. They're this crazy organic thing.

I also don't know why Jo drops all the obvious things that clear Duane. I just use one, the glasses, and he's off the list. In fact the whole glasses thing makes me really scratch my head about the whole investigation.

This forum sometimes has a hallucinogenic feel. And it's not just Jo...it's all of us..kind of a shared hallucination...Maybe that's why we all come here..it's legal LSD!

[JSBIRD 1]

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You know damn good and well what it means...otherwise you wouldn't have noticed the time and then mentioned it.
...
359

Actually, I don't *really* think it means anything. But some people actually do. See this:

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Numerologists believe that events linked to the time 11:11 appear more often than chance or coincidence. [1] This belief is related to the concept of synchronicity. [2] Other authors believe it is an auspicious sign, [3] and others that it signals a spirit presence. [4] [5]

Although not an originator of the concept, Uri Geller has spoken repeatedly about 11:11, [6] and the belief that it has mystical powers has also been adopted by many believers in New Age philosophies. [7] However, some skeptics say that Geller's examples of 11:11 phenomenon in world events are examples of post-hoc reasoning [8] and confirmation bias. [9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11:11_%28numerology%29

Given all of the conspiracy theory around here, I thought Ckret's date and time of posting to Jo was very conspiratorial. Just like everything else.

Like, why did you put *your* suspect number at the end of *your* post?

It's all connected to this: "Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious."

Right?

I'm guessing your primary income is NOT from being a Guru.

359

"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

[jumpin_Jan 1]

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I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey.

I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it.

Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them.

Ckret,

For what it's worth...
The FAR's require a rigger to follow manufacturers instructions each time a parachute system is maintained. Most of the riggers I know(self included) actually use the manufacturers printed instructions each and every time!
I still use them for my own gear that I have memorized.
It is part of the anal attention to detail that IMneverHO each rigger should follow as if someones life depended on it, because it often does.

That being said, I think it is likely that Cossey WOULD have paching instructions handy for the container though possibly not the round reserve as they all flake and fold quite similarly. The packing instructions often include instructions on use.
I'm not sure about the NB6 though.
If Cossey or others thought that a crewmember might have been the intended recipient of one or more of the rigs including instructions was a cool thing to do.

This does not address what instructions were given to Cooper just the likelihood that manufacturers instructions were available to Cossey.

PERSONAL OPINION regarding jumping custom/modified gear.

An Analogy:
The experienced jumpers that I know(self included) that would jump(some will not) borrowed gear would think of it like driving a car that you have never driven before.
They all have the similar handles and buttons but they may be in a slightly different location. A few minutes familiarization is all that is necessary for sucessful operation in most cases.

I do not intend to harp about differences of opinion.
My intention is to provide insight into what I consider common thought processes that some experienced jumpers use and why.
Some would freak out and others would go YEEHAA I get to log something new! :)
I tend to think of Cooper as the YEEHAA variety because that's how I think.

My point is that I reach different conclusions from the same data.
......................................................................................

WILD TANGENT ALERT!!!
:)
I have wondered if Cooper was into opiates.
That could explain his time in the lavatory and possibly a motivation. It could also explain his lack of wildly agressive behavior with the crew.

Along theese lines I'd also like to point out that the ticket Cooper purchased was under $20.00.
It seems like a low budget job if the bomb was also a fake.
Perhaps he could not afford his own gear.
or
He may have sold his gear to support a habit.

The song "Sam Stone" by John Prine explains in more detail.
_END_OF_WILD_TANGENT_ALERT_


PULL!
jumpin_JAN

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[Orange1 0]

And that entire answer is exactly why people get so frustrated with you. Except that on top of your usual impossible demands you now also want proof that the master prints are actually Duane's???? This despite the fact that the integrity of the system was clearly proved by the James Earl Ray story (a facet of the story you clearly just ignore because it doesn't support your theory). This beggars belief even more than it did before. Can you imagine the logjam in the US legal system if the FBI was supposed to "prove" its master prints in every criminal case?

From some internet searching I did I discovered that the FBI originally stopped investigating Duane as a suspect in 1998 - well before ckret arrived on the scene - due to a lack of evidence against him. All the work ckret has done since, including the DNA and reopening files on him, has simply backed that up.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

some good points in that post.

Kind of loosely connected, below (and I apologise for the long post, but I very seldom do these so give me a break here ) a bunch of definitions and stuff... all from Wiki...

-----
Confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

Confirmation bias is of interest in the teaching of critical thinking, as the skill is misused if rigorous critical scrutiny is applied only to evidence challenging a preconceived idea but not to evidence supporting it.

The term "myside bias" was coined by the geneticist, David Perkins, myside referring to "my" side of the issue under consideration. An important consequence of the myside bias is that many incorrect beliefs are slow to change and often become stronger even when evidence is presented which should weaken the belief. Generally, such irrational belief persistence results from according too much weight to evidence that accords with one's belief, and too little weight to evidence that does not. It can also result from the failure to search impartially for information.

Jonathan Baron describes many instances where myside bias affects our lives. For example, students who perform poorly suffer from irrational belief persistence when they fail to criticize their own ideas and remain rigid in their mistaken beliefs. These students suffer from myside bias because they do not look for, or tend to ignore, evidence against their mistaken claims. Baron also mentions certain forms of psychopathology as good examples of myside bias. Delusional patients, for instance, might continually wrongly believe that a cough or sneeze means that they are dying, even when doctors insist that they are healthy.

--
Particular accusations of conspiracy vary widely in their plausibility, but some common standards for assessing their likely truth value may be applied in each case:
• Occam's razor - is the alternative story more complicated and therefore less probable than the mainstream story?
• Logic - Do the proofs offered follow the rules of logic, or do they employ Fallacies of logic?
• Methodology - are the proofs offered for the argument well constructed, i.e., using sound methodology? Is there any clear standard to determine what evidence would prove or disprove the theory?
• Whistleblowers - how many people — and what kind — have to be loyal conspirators?
• Falsifiability - Is it possible to demonstrate that specific claims of the theory are true, or are they "unfalseifiable"?
---------
The psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:
• certainty (held with absolute conviction)
• incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
• impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as: A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

In practice psychiatrists tend to diagnose a belief as delusional if it is either patently bizarre, causing significant distress, or excessively pre-occupies the patient, especially if the person is subsequently unswayed in belief by counter-evidence or reasonable arguments.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Jan's got some good thoughts.

I was musing over her opiate theory, which actually sounds plausible, but if Cooper survived, it's likely he would have been found out or overdosed. Actually maybe that's why he wasn't found? Survived the jump, but then o.d'ed? But a middled-aged dead person in a room full of newly bought smack would surely have been figured out by police.

I suspect there were opiate-like effects involved, but probably as a result of the normal things that body produces..i.e. the natural effects in humans, that opiates mimic. It does beg the question of analyzing behavior and deciding what is normal. My bias is to say there's no such thing as normal...normal is just a statistics thing, which gives you no information on the shape of the distribution, or long tails.

[snowmman 3]

I was thinking of other areas we've not explored yet.
The best evidence, in my opinion, comes from the FBI investigation itself.

If we understand it, and trust it, it can tell us who Cooper wasn't.

First we have to acknowledge that there's no such thing as FBI, it's all humans. And humans are flawed. And groups of humans can be more flawed. It's possible for groups of humans to be less flawed, but we can't assume that.

I'm sure working in the FBI is stressful. When trying to give a rectal exam to Agent H, we can use his statements during the investigation and after his retirement to try to understand him.

Here's my take. He was self-confident, possibly narrow minded, and given to mixing emotion and critical analysis. His statements about the integrity of the aviation employees, for instance, reflect biases, and places he might not look so hard.

I've noted before how Agent H. was approximately the same age as the Cooper estimate. If I put that all together, I suspect Agent H. would have a very hard time doing a good job at the investigation if Cooper was more like him, than different.
I'm not suggesting Cooper was FBI, but it's difficult if the suspect might be like you. It would be like looking in a mirror.

Agent H., in my view, is the human personification of that FBI investigation. The more we can understand Agent H., I think the more we can understand both what the FBI investigation looked at, and what they may have overlooked.

There's also the possibility of conscious bias, but when I look at the videos of Agent H on youtube, I see someone who seems to have wanted to do the right thing, and maybe just didn't have all the skills needed for the particular job. Also, the skills/tools of FBI back then were probably less than today.

The cool thing about the Cooper investigation is everyone gets to have a free rectal exam. I like rectal exams. :)

[Orange1 0]

I was about to point you to the websleuths theories about Agent H, but I see you got there already

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

For us amateur investigators, an example of where emotion can easily get inserted into an investigation, is people's cry for cutting Agent C. some slack, cause he's only working on this part time.

The right point of view, in my opinion, is to not give a rat's ass about Agent C. If he can contribute to the solution, fine. If he can't, fine. He can decide to do whatever he wants..Life in the US is great for a reason.

The second we start changing our behavior because of some emotion Agent C. tries to create, or we try to create, we're creating a group bias. It's unclear what bias would be good or bad. Since the FBI hasn't found Cooper, we should assume any bias is potentially a bad one.

So sadly, in my point of view, we have to not give a rat's ass about anyone's emotions.

Now you can say, but we need to work as a team, because no individual can solve this. And emotions bind teams. That's absolutely right. So we have to aggressively split out the emotion that binds the team, vs the analysis. If they get mixed, we're just redoing the FBI investigation.

[snowmman 3]

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This despite the fact that the integrity of the system was clearly proved by the James Earl Ray story

What kind of tear gas cannisters were used at Waco?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

This despite the fact that the integrity of the system was clearly proved by the James Earl Ray story

What kind of tear gas cannisters were used at Waco?

Would you care to explain how tear gas canisters at Waco have any relevance to the FBI's fingerprint master records?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

This despite the fact that the integrity of the system was clearly proved by the James Earl Ray story

What kind of tear gas cannisters were used at Waco?

Would you care to explain how tear gas canisters at Waco have any relevance to the FBI's fingerprint master records?

Oh, mistake, you're right. Sorry about that.

[Albert18 0]

I believe an expression that could be used for Snowmman today would be, "he was wound like an eight day clock."

[snowmman 3]

I got a copy of the 1984 Tosaw book off ebay. Finally arrived. Actually has Tosaw's signature.

Read thru it. Pretty good detail. Some facts are obviously wrong.

One bit of info jumped out at me. Way back when I was theorizing about dredging, I talked about whether stuff could go thru the dredger. Tosaw's book talks about the bladed dredger having 18" blades, and provides testimony of a bird or something actually passing thru it and living.

There's an error when it talks about the specific large number of yards of sand dumped at Fazio's. I don't think we have that exact number. I had tried to pursue that detail and posted before on what I was able to find about dredge spoils on the other side of the Columbia. The available data there was for the Ranch on the other side...so Tosaw was a little wrong there in reporting the data.

But this whole question about the 18" blades. It's been stated here before that stuff couldn't go thru the dredger, but Tosaw's book has testimony where stuff can go thru?

So I can't figure out what's right. I don't want to open up the whole dredging can of worms, since we seemed to have closed that a while back.

I can't figure out why Tosaw would be wrong. He obviously talked to someone. He mentions 18" blades and gives an example. He's not prone to literary license. It's just odd.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

The song "Sam Stone" by John Prine explains in more detail.

Was it you or 377 that quoted Prine (from Paradise) in the old thread?

I always have respect for those who are familar with Prine's 70s stuff.

Good call on the "substance abuse" (that's for the PC Police) thoughts.

I've always thought the bathroom episode was to avoid being a sniper target, but a "quick fix before doing the deed" makes sense AND explains Ckret's "elated like a child" behavior change. (that I have disagreed with his interpretation.)

Makes sense to me, maybe I'll do some digging.

Thanks,

Sluggo_Monster

snowmman (aka "Digger"),

How do we go about this?

EDIT: Changed "Dead" to "Deed"

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

snowmman (aka "Digger"),

How do we go about this?

I'm still doing my DZ homework. I had to order Catch 22 because of you, and I'm reading that.

And I'm watching "The Bodyguard" cause I found out Ckret apparently did a tour as bodyguard. I can see taking a bullet for Rachel Marron, but for Jeb Bush? I'm more impressed with Ckret every day, saw he did K9 too, but I suspect that was just GSD, like Rommel (GSD) at Reno...hey wait a second...Ckret, K9 unit, Rommel at Reno, stairs shredded? :)

So you can see I got some thinking to do.

[jumpin_Jan 1]

Quote

Quote

The song "Sam Stone" by John Prine explains in more detail.

Was it you or 377 that quoted Prine (from Paradise) in the old thread?

It were not I, my first post to dizzy was in this thread.


PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede