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quade

DB Cooper

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1) Did Cooper smoke the cigarettes? I've been wondering about false clues. Was he ever seen smoking?

7) Were prints taken from people on the prior parts of the flight to exclude unknown prints?



I seem to recall he was seen smoking.

If I am not mistaken ckret has posted that there are a whole bunch of fingerprints they have been not been able to match to anyone. But none of the fingerprints found have matched any of the suspects put forward as I understand (possibly excl Christiansen, he was dismissed on physical appearance & as I recall they never went further on that - ckret is this correct?)

Sluggo, thanks for re-posting those terrain pics! Yes it becomes blindingly obvious!
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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just another curious fact.

[note the period in question overlaps the Cooper hijack 11/24/71]

Northwest Airlines pilots' contract with Northwest expired June 30, 1971 and negotiations began three months before that.

They still didn't have a contract by June, 1972

The National Mediation Board declared efforts had been exhausted and a 30-day cooling -of period was required. This ended June 30, 1972

The pilots threatened a strike then.

[haven't researched the final outcome]

So: at the time they were flying Flight 305, the pilots had an expired contract.

attached jpg is from news article dated 6/29/72 but you can backcalculate the dates mentioned.

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Christiansen would have been an excellent candidate.
Ex-paratrooper. Unhappy former airline employee.
(He kept getting layed off during strikes.)
Lived in Washington near the site of the hijacking.
He was a former flight attendant and knew the refueling time. He made large cash purchases a year after the hijacking. Drank bourbon and smoked.

Ruled out for physical description.

Want to see something really interesting?
Youtube

Youtube video with Walter Cronkite.
The video shows passengers exiting.
Except for the stewardesses, everybody on the plane matched the description. :D
I saw 3 guys with jackets, ties, and hats get off the plane. Everybody in 1971 dressed like that.

Personally, my favorite is still McCoy.
He is perfect. Plus, he did it shortly afterwards in the same fashion (but got caught).

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I have a thought. Do we know if the NB6+28 pack that Cossey did had been jumped before? or was Cooper the first to try that container+canopy?



We have been told that Cossey packed this chute - thru the media and from Ckret - it was also stated to me...BUT, I have a serious question to ask about this. If they were getting the chutes from the base - how or why would Cossey be packing a military chute.

I thought that the military did their own packing and didn't sublet that out to non-military...so someone help me understand this. Obviously the FBI did not get the chutes from the military. Right?

If this was a military chute - how AND why was it in non-military hands....I am sure only Cossey can answer this question and I hope that Ckret has pull with him to call and ask this question.

Remember that Duane had something in his possession - actually two items connected together - that I have thought might be part of the harness hardware that goes across the chest and the ones in the groin...as it did resemble the pics sent to me of those items. Would it be possible for someone to have purchased an item to attach a package or satchel to himself and the chute hardware. It might not have been designed to be use on a chute, but did the same job of securing the package or satchel to him or to a belt he was wearing (a harness type belt like the ones used by window washers and firejumpers and powerline workers.)

If you will recall it has been stated that that Cooper kept his raincoat on - just exactly why would he do that unless he was concealing something? Was he concealing the belt and something else attached to it - such as a walky talky or some other piece of hardware that would help him to locate his drop zone?

Duane alway had a CB and it saved our lives - once in a white-out and another time when we got stranded on the highway in WY during a snowstorm. When we were in WA in 1979 - he pointed out one of those things (that let the planes know where they are) -
(hats) you guys talk about, but I do not remember the conversation surrounding this....

A serious question for Ckret - could Cooper have been wearing one of these belts or some other paraphalia under his coat and jacket? Duane had this odd contraption that he said was a back brace - lots of loops and cords and staves. The back braces I have seen are maybe 6 to 9 inches wide - this one was more like a corset. He never wore it, but wouldn't let me throw it away.

He did not have a bad back and NEVER complained of back problems...so his being attached to this thing seems weird? Would he have worn something like this to assure he would not break his back in the jump? This sounds stange to anyone who is reading it just as it seems strange to me that I am even mentioning this "thing".

At this point in all of this - maybe my mentioning some of the "odd" things might help provide some answers.

Crazy as a bat! - HE HE HE, but then maybe not - !
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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When a witness, supposed witness or informant is unable to have a story that has any continuity or known fact, many times its simply a fabrication. This is many times manifested by strong emotional responses and anger at the investigators for not proving their story correctly and fully. This charade continues as "facts" originally stated by the RP continually change when individual facets of the investigation quickly and easily prove that things stated are fabricated untruths.



If you are directing this statement at me then you need to meet me and talk to me in-person.

My story does NOT change - it remains the same. It is others who take the words I say and make it sound like something else. Such as you stating that Cooper ordered Pizza - ridiculous.

I have not fabricated any part of my story - but, I have explored with the forum other things. Only talking to me in person can you know when I am making a supposition or exploring an idea or story I have been told.

Such an example - the tie story
- I was told a story by two individuals and I have and am exploring all of that to find out if there is any truth to it.

I noted that CKRET - did NOT say that the stewardess stated the tie and pearl tac found where the ones that Cooper was wearing? Why? Because obviously he has not found a statement made by the witnesses stating that they were one and the same and that they actually saw these items on Cooper.

None of the above means that the tie story is true or not true - and I for one cannot say it is - it was a story told to me by two others who knew Duane and this story may have NO connection to the skyjacking.

:)
Since I am the only one in this forum who is claiming to know who Cooper was - then it stands to reason that you are referring to me.

;)Lay your credencials on the table and actually meet me and interview me. Give me a lie detector test.

Questions must be about facts and not some of the mind games and theories we play with in the forum. Facts and Reality - Not using things I have explored in my research or using my suppositions or replys I have made when I get defensive if someone is giving me a hard time.

I will pass with FLYING colors. I believe I should have the right to review the questions before hand to eliminate questions that may be errored or cannot be answered with a yes or no, because of how it is stated or if the question has been taken from theory rather than what I was told and what I saw.

Such a theory question would be - Did Duane leave the tie? How would I know that if he didn't tell me. Question - did so and so tell you about a tie? I can answer that with a yes or no.

:)I KNOW what cards I am holding? [:/]How is your hand?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Ckret has mentioned a "cheap clasp" on the tie bar which is not visible in the photos.

Attached is a photo not related, but I think may be similar.

It is a money clip, collar pin, cuff link, tie tack, tie bar set.

The tie bar is the back right. (there's a tie tack in front of it, but that's not the one to look at)

Folks opinions matching it to Ckret's photo? The gold is a little tarnished in this photo.

Maybe this will help remind Ckret he promised better photos.

This may also make people think of how the tie bar might really be part of a cheap set, like what someone might have gotten as present on father's day? or something like that. Money clip is interesting. A whole set may not have been owned or used by Cooper, though.

Our "cultural googles" make the tie bar look exotic in Ckret's photo. (phrase per sluggo)

In this photo, it's more obvious it could be part of a cheap set (or a similar one).

They seemed commonly advertised in the newspapers in the '60's -early '70s. I was surprised to see that money clips were part of the common sets. I don't know how many people actually used the collar pins back then.

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Only talking to me in person can you know when I am making a supposition or exploring an idea or story I have been told.



Mmmmm........I think it's important we deal with EVIDENCE. "Stories" are a dime a dozen and get us nowhere. Everyone has a story or two, and most fall into the Fiction category.

Let's work with EVIDENCE, and there is no reason it can't be supplied here on this forum.

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Is it known what he had for his last meal, prior to exiting the aircraft?



Duane said that he had a pizza delivered.



I was thinking of McNally and the pants theory. Given the high pucker factor of the jump, and bearing in mind the relative gravitational winds, if he dropped one in his pants and he had been eating a high-fiber diet, one would expect it to be a floater and hence the float time of the pants will have been affected.



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Lay your credencials on the table and actually meet me and interview me. Give me a lie detector test



I can explain my credentials in private if you so desire, but I'm not going to spend my own money for a polygraph or travel for something I believe as futile. I firmly believe that you believe that Duane was Cooper; however, I also firmly believe from what you have stated here that you had the wool pulled over your eyes.

As a side note, a polygraph can only show overt deception. Its not a "lie detector" test as commonly believed. So even if something is not necessarily true, if the person being tested fully believes something to be true then it will not necessarily show on the polygraph. It all depends on the skill of the operator.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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sort-of-modern pic from an airplane. But it's nice for visualizing drift scenarios.

You can see Fazio Bros. Sand Company there just above Caterpillar Island, for pinpointing the money find on Tena Bar.

I have reports that Caterpillar Island has almost completed flooded in the past. That's obviously possible when looking at it's contours on a topo map. Included topo also.

I'm not a river expert, but it's interesting seeing that the money find location is consistent with possible eddy currents or low velocity water flow.

I had a theory of the money being "dry" on Caterpillar Island for a while, possibly buried on impact or something, and then be released during flood conditions. Partly theorizing that the money might not have drifted far, if it did drift. I was thinking "not far" in order to maintain the stacked or meshed find condition.

Could have drifted in "meshed" state, if it didn't go too far?

There was a news article of the hijack in the Phillipines? where the guy made a home made chute (which failed). He impacted hard enough that only his hand was sticking out of the ground. (they say). Must have been soft ground. Made me muse about Cooper and/or money impacting in soft ground.

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Snowman,

This Mcnally thing has shed a whole new light on the case.

All the naysayers doubting that Cooper could have gotten away with this are at least temporarily stopped in their tracks. Especially since it's inconclusive whether or not Cooper was experienced, he may very well have been.

Why has the thinking on this case been so constrained?

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Canopus,
There are reasonable issues here. And McNally doesn't necessarily prove anything either. But it should open our eyes a bit.

I'll give some thoughts. Everyone should chime in with their thoughts.

First, everyone was and is trying to predict the result of an experiment, which we'll call Cooper.

Think of it as predicting reliability. Success/Failure.

No one was able to present data from an exact experiment that duplicated "it", based on our guesses of Cooper's skill level. And no one is going to send a novice out on a similar experiment as a test, in case of death.

Also, at first, the weather conditions were stated wrong. In fact, it would be nice if Sluggo posted the currently believed conditions, including wind and cloud cover. I don't think we all understand the conditions yet. The conditions, as we now understand, were sort of mild, right? The jump zone in the "rough terrain" may have been overstated. Note that of the 3 drift paths on Carr's map, 2 of them are in current farmland. They should have said something like 25% chance of jump in rough, 75% chance of jump in not-so-rough terrain.

The press pushing the -7 deg air temp hard, was a big messup. They didn't understand Celsius vs Fahrenheit, and they emphasized wind chill, which is bogus for understanding survivability, or ability to operate, in this case. They didn't report ground temps. The wind speeds were overstated.

Also, there may have been too much read into the chest chutes for intuiting skill level. There are other "tells" on skill level. But at first blush, McNally seemed like a fool compared to Cooper. I'm still wondering about how fast Cooper rigged, and whether he was rigged when he was opening the stairs. Goggles are a big deal..but then again, we don't know that Cooper didn't have any. (not sure about McNally).

We also are missing data, like whether the NB6+28 had been jumped before, and how hard a pull it was.

Some data is fuzzy, like the amount of cloud cover.

So everyone has been trying to extrapolate from their own personal experience which resulted in successes, and predict how that might apply to the Cooper situation.

My experience in computer reliability testing, is that it's very difficult to predict failure, using only data that resulted in success. And most of the "data" we're using is the opinions of people who have been successful in jet exits, or other experiences (training novices say) that mostly result in successes. Yes there is some failure (death) experiences, but unclear whether it applies to the Cooper experiment.

As far as I can tell there was little data that said "I know this guy who did this and he's dead and that's why Cooper's probably dead"

Most of what I read, seemed like "I did this and it was hard and scary, therefore Cooper's probably dead".

I know I'm simplifying a lot of intelligent, informed discussion, and I got banned last time for having too much of attitude about this.

I don't think we itemized the exact physical or mental skills or knowledge needed for the jump well. Cooper clearly had mental control. It's been fuzzy understanding whether there's a hard requirement for body-in-air control knowledge. That requirement may be overstated. [McNally may tell us that]

The other part of this, is that the FBI kind of wanted the answer that Cooper probably died. So I think they kind of went to jumpers looking for confirmation of a belief.

Remember the pilots on McNally plane stated that they thought he probably died.

In the end, the problem is its about predicting the results of an experiment that few people really do. McNally did one that's close. He's alive.

Interestingly, the data on injuries is useful. (bruised face, bruises from straps). It would be very interesting to know what kind of canopy McNally had (no broken leg on landing? and no dislocated arms). He made his may back to Michigan undetected. Until the end, that is.

On another note. Apparently McNally's gun and chute were found together. So somehow he didn't lose the gun on the jump?

I was wondering if Cooper's determination in tying the bag to himself, after failing to stuff the money in the chest containers, actually showed that he understood a little about the forces in jet exits, while McNally seemed to know less (lost bag). Now Cooper may have lost his money too. We don't know how McNally attached his bag. (he wouldn't hold it like they said: how do you pull then?)

I think there have been some bad assumptions, potentially led on by the FBI. There's no reason to assume Cooper jumped with the briefcase in his hand. There's no reason to believe he jumped with stuff flapping. He could have tossed stuff, that just hasn't been found, or found but not reported because it wasn't unusual.

All I'm really saying, is that when I look at the data, I can't see why it proves Cooper is dead past 90% confidence. or even 80% confidence. If you can't prove significantly past 50% confidence that someone's dead, then you assume they're alive, in my book. Or you say "Can't Know" and assume alive.

I think it's important to divorce the jump success prediction from other data like the money find, etc, because it just clouds the judgment with more fuzzy data.
.

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I believe the pics are accurate for the time. (chime in if you know for sure)

first is a full pack.
second is a flat pack so you can read front/side/back

I have a mental image of the first thing Cooper might have done on landing. Light another Raleigh and say to himself : "Holy S***!"

(hey my full post on smoking questions disappeared? did it get deleted, or does the forum sometimes drop things accidently? should I repost it in case Ckret might answer some of it?)

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Pretty close to the tie clasp. The clasp in the Cooper files seems to have two bars narrow curving over.

Interesting that you found so many money clips - Duane never was without a money clip. He liked the leather magnet ones, but I don't remember what he was using when we got married in 1978 - seems like it was metal. I will have to ask my daughter - maybe she will remember.

That is something else for Ckret to look for in the files. How did Cooper pay for his drinks and did he have a money clip. I do remember that Duane had one with an emblem on it - early on, but not sure if that was when we first met.

CKRET: You seem to miss the reason I was upset with you - not that you dropped the ball, but that you did not listen and you were stubborn when it came to the fingerprint system...even when I was able to name one of the individuals who managed to bypass the print system - and the very fact that Duane knew this man.

Also - I have found that Duane did Clerical work in at least one of the prisons and I believe that to be Jefferson, because it is in the prison records regarding the Commutation.

He was a paper pusher and very good with a calculator and his math. He was an excellent typist.

I am still trying to access archives of newspapers and county records, but it looks like I will need to make a trip to find what I am looking for. Someone else might look right over it - I have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for.

This is also true with the FBI files.
I understand that there are over 40 feet in the Cooper files so that means that only a very small fraction is in the FOIA. You still have never answered my questions about the night clerk and the hotel. You ignore that.

The interview has to be in those files and as I told you this was not just a routine check - the night clerk called the FBI the next day.
The owner and the night clerk were interviewed and someone else who worked there, another young man, who I do not believe had contact with Mr. Collins.

If Duane was pulling the WOOL over my eyes as has was stated then why take 17 yrs to do it and then tell me something I did not understand 10 days before he died.

I think it is rather difficult to feed an individual parts of a story over a long period of time - parts so vague and over the yrs that one would not connect them unless they had a reason to do so.

This means that the "investigator" is missing the mark. He or She doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. 17 yrs of clues - but they are only clues IF the recieving party has suspicions or some knowledge of the subject matter.

Having Dumb Blonde Syndrome - I didn't get it...until I found out who DAN COOPER was. The name he said that day in the hospital. One yr and 2 months later I find out Dan Cooper was the name given by D.B. Cooper - then everything he said made sense, but he wasn't here to answer my questions.

Had I understood the significance of what he said - I would have been looking for the hidden things...but I did not know what I was looking for....since I didn't know who Dan Cooper was in 1995.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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The FBI's Tie Photo

I went back to look at the clasp in the pic from the FBI. Does anyone see in that photo what I see.

Cooper WAS left handed. Note that the clasp is placed from the left. Duane was left handed. I have asked the FBI over and over all of these yrs is they noted if Cooper was left handed.

What I don't understand is this - If it is clasped from the left side he could not possible have been wearing it.....it would not have been attached to the shirt. I am not a man and I don't wear a tie, but will someone explain this to me.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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skyjack71 makes one good point. It's very hard for anyone interested in this case to understand what's a clue and what's not. Everyone on the outside has like zero info. I actually believed Carr in the media when he said he wanted to invite the public in. Obviously the reality is different. There really is no investigation, and Carr is just hoping media attention shakes the tree and something falls out.

Me, I'm just like Sluggo. The case is interesting. It's a nice puzzle for one's brain. I like searching for data.

I have no idea what's a clue and what's not.

I have many thoughts and tidbits, and I throw out things randomly to get feedback.

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists.

As far as I can tell, it looks like Agent H. may have acquired a 1952 Beech C35 in 1973. What does it mean? probably nothing. But it highlights that there are lots of random facts that can make this case much deeper than the trivial myths that have been thrown around for 36 years. It's like the Cooper investigation has always been a grade B movie.

Sometimes I worry about libel issues, but I figure anyone who has publicly associated themselves with this case is fair game for speculation.

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Goggles aren't a big deal.



I agree. Goggles are not a big deal at all, but the less experience someone has, the more they might matter. If Cooper had no or few jumps, not having goggles might have contributed to his not being able to find his deployment handle. If he had more experience, he wouldn't be likely to need them.
Owned by Remi #?

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Goggles aren't a big deal.



I agree. Goggles are not a big deal at all, but the less experience someone has, the more they might matter. If Cooper had no or few jumps, not having goggles might have contributed to his not being able to find his deployment handle. If he had more experience, he wouldn't be likely to need them.



Then again, there is the mysterious paper bag he brought on board, which could easily have contained... say... a pair of goggles and an alti. (Did they have glow in the dark altis in those days? Anyway a previous discussion a while ago concluded he didn't actually expect to be jumping in the dark as I recall)
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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As far as I can tell, it looks like Agent H. may have acquired a 1952 Beech C35 in 1973. What does it mean? probably nothing.



By Agent H you mean Himmelsbach? Over on another forum there is a whole conspiracy theory about how Himmelsbach was in cahoots with Mayfield (suggested Mayfield had something on him... knew him from before... he was the one who effectively gave Mayfield his alibi... etc)
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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The FBI's Tie Photo

Cooper WAS left handed. Note that the clasp is placed from the left. Duane was left handed.

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You cannot draw conclusions like this. There is no evidence whatsoever. Anther attempt to support your own personal theory no matter what.

Please place Duane in Portland in '71. Please place Duane on the aircraft in '71.

Let's start here.

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