DB Cooper

[skyjumpsteve 0]

I was about 15'th out on the first Jet jump ever at the WFFC. I camped out for a few hours at the table where I knew they were going to sell tickets (which we knew were going to be numbered) and was something like ticket #18. That is how we loaded the jet so we could be the first ones out.

They fucked up the hand signals a little bit and we were going much faster than intended AND ended up landing (many of us) miles and miles away. I think I was about 8 miles away. If I remember correctly Jerry Bird was one of the ones in charge of the exit and spot....

Yes, it injured a few people. 2 or 3 people had dislocated shoulders and MANY people lost shit on exit. One guy lost a complete camera and helmet set-up and a bunch of people lost stuff like goggles. The tumbling was kind of comical....it was like some of the people forget how to arch. I tumbled a bit but got stable pretty quickly. I think the adrenalin and rush of being on the first pass screwed some people up a bit. Personally if I had never jumped I doubt I ever would have gotten stable.....may have been able to pull but would not have been belly to earth.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Yes, it injured a few people. 2 or 3 people had dislocated shoulders and MANY people lost shit on exit. One guy lost a complete camera and helmet set-up and a bunch of people lost stuff like goggles. The tumbling was kind of comical....it was like some of the people forget how to arch. I tumbled a bit but got stable pretty quickly. I think the adrenalin and rush of being on the first pass screwed some people up a bit. Personally if I had never jumped I doubt I ever would have gotten stable.....may have been able to pull but would not have been belly to earth.

Thanks Steve, interesting. Both the bits about the violence of the exit as well as people losing things...!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I think my secret has “gotten out”. So, I’ll fess up. One of the reasons that you haven’t heard much from me lately is that I am building a 3-D model of the flight path (It was not all at 10,000 ft MSL).

I am waiting for some data to make sure I’m seeing what I think I’m seeing, and to better understand how the markings (on publically released maps and charts) were established,

So, what I’m about to give you is “brown and steaming” (meaning it came out of my anus).

20:14 Battle Ground VORTAC (BTG) at aprox. 10,000 ft MSL
20:16 Just SE of Pearson Air Park (VUO) at aprox. 10,000 ft MSL
20:17 Western Portland (Around Champ) at aprox. 10,000 ft MSL

[See Portland Inset ANN100.jpg for estimated timeline, and Compare(resized).jpg for the FBI supplied marked chart.]

You will need to get SafecrackingPLF to help with the watershed info. Or go back over the maps he posted on the old thread. I’m “maps and flight path,” he’s “Water flow and moneybags.”
Seriously, I hope this helps, but remember it is based on ONLY an educated guess. Stay tuned though, I hope to have some verifiable data in the next few weeks.

BTW: The noticeable southward jog (off of V-23) between the BTG VOR and Pearson Airpark may have been while they were making the decision whether or not to land at Portland or continue after they felt the “pressure bump”. If it is, it helps define the southern limit of his departure point. [Once again, this is speculation at this time. DO NOT QUOTE ME on that!

Sluggo_Monster

Edited to resize compare.jpg

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

A quick addendum:

Quote

jumpin_Jan said

... would 20:20 PST do it?

As you can see by the map, 20:20 puts you considerably south of Portland.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[happythoughts 0]

When the jet first started at the convention, it used to fly in a straight line. There were 6 lines of 25.
If you were in line 1 or line 6, you were going to be at the extremes.

Later on, the tickets just meant that you got on. No order. I tried to be at the back of line 3. That put you in the middle.

In later years, they flew a pass that was in an arc, so you had a chance of being close at least.

The Connie always flew a straight jump run. Same concept. I was last out on a Connie flight, doing a 4-way with video. We landed so far out that the person who picked us up said, "This is exciting. We've never had anyone land here." ("Here" being a field full of pig manure.)

So, at the convention, they knew where they were and tried to spot us, but 1 minute made miles of difference. (I always thought that doing a naked jet jump was crazy because corn would hurt.)

Flying straight, at 200mph, 3 miles per minute, the "box" of the probable landing site is huge.

[Albert18 0]

Doesn't this mean we can put Cooper in the area southeast of Battle Ground? At that time the flight path must have been in the vicinity of highway 503.

[happythoughts 0]

Just wanted to get your opinion on an early post.

Someone mentioned the idea of standing at the bottom of the stairs and dumping that round.

In other words, the canopy inflates into a wind moving past you at 200mph while you are standing there.

My theory is that linestretch would be mildly uncomfortable and different body parts may be distributed across the landscape.

Thoughts?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Flying straight, at 200mph, 3 miles per minute, the "box" of the probable landing site is huge.

This is a good point - a 1 minute difference in the estimation of exit (and there has been at least this in the various submissions) could therefore make a very big difference in possible landing areas. So the question is - is it safe to assume the people doing the original calcs would have taken this into account?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Quote

Flying straight, at 200mph, 3 miles per minute, the "box" of the probable landing site is huge.

This is a good point - a 1 minute difference in the estimation of exit (and there has been at least this in the various submissions) could therefore make a very big difference in possible landing areas. So the question is - is it safe to assume the people doing the original calcs would have taken this into account?

No i-deer.

It mainly highlights the idea that spotting from the front of the a/c, or side window would be tough.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have an opinion. But, I am using restraint and waiting on some data.

The analysis prior to the January 1772 ground search was done by an interagency group with technical support from Boeing. It should have been very good and accurate.

However, I believe there was a weak link in the data (ground track at departure time) and, remember, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. A good analysis on a faulty data point, yields flawed results.

More when I get verifiable data.

And remember, what I gave you this morning was a quick-and-dirty brown steamer in response to a narrow question. I hope I don't see those maps on somebody's web-site.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Albert18 0]

Sorry, I have already sent those maps to Drudge.

[skyjumpsteve 0]

1772 1972. A seach in 1772 would not have yielded much.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Okay... Okay... I did it again. That's the second time it's made it into the post and about the 34th time I caught it before posting.

I'm going to a "shrink" to find out why my brain thinks 20th century and my fingers key 18th century. I'll bet it involves that time I saw Mom & Dad having sex. Boy! I'll never get on that web-site again!

Actually, you're wrong, they would have found DB Cooper (the time traveler). Only at that time he was Squacoasoh (a Native american name meaning "Dances With Dollars"). He made the time-jump when he was 6' - 3" above ground, breaking his ankle, but otherwise unhurt.

So there!

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[jumpin_Jan 1]

Quote

A quick addendum:

Quote

jumpin_Jan said

... would 20:20 PST do it?

As you can see by the map, 20:20 puts you considerably south of Portland.

Sluggo_Monster

Thx Sluggo!
Your reply and pics. reinforce by belief in the usefulness of Occams Razor.

Perhaps a new physical search for remains is in order.

I do a bit of 3d stuff too, resurrecting old dropzones.
I use 3dem initially then export/import to Blender for animation.
What toys do you use?

PULL!
jumpin_Jan

"Dangerous toys are fun but ya could get hurt" -- Vash The Stampede

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

What toys do you use?

When I said “a 3-D model, I meant I am including the “time to climb” and “distance to climb” aspects. I don’t want to say a bunch right now, but based on some of the published data (it appears that) the plane could not have been at Merwin Dam/Areil/Amboy at 20:11. I did some crude climb-out and cruise plots and IF the plane was essentially on V-23, then the location at 08:11 has to be somewhere else. Now I know that data was from a radar trace, but something is still wrong (unless the plane was flying at 69 mph (ground speed). Anyway, my data arrived today, I’ll crunch the numbers and I’ll probably be wrong. That’s okay with me, I just want it to make sense.

After I get the numbers crunched, I’ll give YOU the maps and data and YOU can make us a “real” 3-D model.

Boy! That worked out well, I was wondering where I could find someone who could do that 3-D stuff!

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[low_pull1 2]

Sluggo, come eat some Tex-Mex with us here in S Texas!
...................................
I’ve never felt a Taco-sauce enema, but I can imagine it isn’t pleasant.

Sluggo_Monster

[n467us 0]

Looks like the forum has quieted down... wish somebody would find an old parachute or something...

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Well, since it’s so quiet, I’ll give an update on the flight-path project I’m working on.

I have some actual data now, however it doesn’t cover as large an area as I had hoped. I’m going back to the source to try to get more (if I haven’t worn out my welcome there).

My first step is to take the map and scan it into some software I have that will take the 2-D projection and update it to a World Geodetic System 1984 (WGS84) datum. The purpose of this is to get it to give me back coordinates of any point on the map in the WGS84 datum. Just roll the pointer over the digital map and the coordinates are displayed on the screen.

That will make it possible to give coordinates to anyone for their GPS receivers, Google Earth or Google Map programs. This isn’t absolutely necessary, because all GPSRs and most high-end mapping programs allow the user to select the datum. Of course, I am assuming the map I was given is in the North American Datum 1927 (NAD27) datum. Since it is a 1971 map, it would be logical, since that was what was used except for some specialized applications at that time.

If I don’t get more maps from further north and further south, I’ll do two calculations. One will be assuming a straight line from a point on Victor 23 14 NM (DME) to the north most point on the map, the other will assume Victor 23 from the 14 NM point to the north most point on the map. The magic about that 14 NM (DME) point is the crew reported at that location and at 7000 ft. MSL at a specific time. So, that is a hard-and-fast data point.

With the “time to climb” and “distance to climb” data I got from Boeing, I can calculate the actual time to get to the assumed jump point on the map.

If it puts me at the Point A on Ckret’s map, then I was wrong with my earlier calculations, if it puts me further south, well…. We’ll just have to talk about it!

That should liven up the forum.

You may have noticed from my signature that I’m building a web site. Since I’m not a computer geek and “don’t do HTML,” it has been slow. I’ve got some of the initial pages published (some are still under construction), I’ve got the Blog sub-domain working and have published two blogs, and hope to have a crude forum up in a week or two. Follow the links on my signature and leave me some comments. It would help me a lot! I’ve got thick skin and really want to know if it interest you.

Thanks,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[quade 3]

Quote

My first step is to take the map and scan it into some software I have that will take the 2-D projection and update it to a World Geodetic System 1984 (WGS84) datum. The purpose of this is to get it to give me back coordinates of any point on the map in the WGS84 datum. Just roll the pointer over the digital map and the coordinates are displayed on the screen.

It would be fairly trivial to do what you're talking about in Google Earth.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I didn’t know you can scan maps into Google Earth, at least not the free version. It wouldn’t surprise me, it does almost everything else.

One of the other issues I’m dealing with is the radials off of the VORTACS. I know (or I think I know) that they are magnetic, but set at the time the VORTAC goes in service. So, the 178 degree radial (determined by Mag N at the time it went into service) from SEA to MALAY, is not 178 degrees mag. today. Do you have a feel for how the FAA handles this over the years as the mag declination changes?

I don’t know if I’m making sense or not, but what I’m trying to say is; V-23 relative to ground track would not change if the 176 deg radial stayed the same regardless where mag North is now. But, if they update the radial to match mag North, then at (say) 30 NM, it could be 2 - 3 miles off. I don’t know what the declination was in 1971, but I looked at some 1990 and 2006 maps of the area and (if I remember right) the difference was about 9 degrees.

Make sense?

I’m tired, so I’m turning in.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[quade 3]

Quote

One of the other issues I’m dealing with is the radials off of the VORTACS. I know (or I think I know) that they are magnetic, but set at the time the VORTAC goes in service. So, the 178 degree radial (determined by Mag N at the time it went into service) from SEA to MALAY, is not 178 degrees mag. today. Do you have a feel for how the FAA handles this over the years as the mag declination changes?

They get re-calibrated from time to time to reflect the current situation.

With THIS tool, you can figure out what the declination was for any place and date back to 1900.

Quote

I don’t know what the declination was in 1971, but I looked at some 1990 and 2006 maps of the area and (if I remember right) the difference was about 9 degrees.

I find that large a difference somewhat difficult to believe. In my entire lifetime I don't think SoCal has changed more than 1 or 2, but we are talking about Washington state, so . . . who knows.

So, being lazy I just typed in a zip code from Seattle and here's what I got back.

Quote

Year Declination
1970 21° 50' E
1975 21° 26' E
1980 20° 55' E
1985 20° 24' E
1990 19° 55' E
1995 19° 27' E
2000 18° 43' E
2005 17° 51' E
2008 17° 20' E

So, that's only 4°, or the difference of about 4 miles over the course of 60 miles.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skyjack71 0]

Guys you all are so far over my head that I can't get up for air. Someday maybe you all will post this in a "dumb blonde" lanuage.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[quade 3]

Quote

Someday maybe you all will post this in a "dumb blonde" lanuage.

It's easy Jo . . .

The true north pole and the magnetic north pole are in two different places. The reason is one is created by the rotation of the planet and the other is created by the rotation of the magnetically charged, molten iron core of the planet and the two are not aligned. Further, because the core is molten it is slowly changing its orientation and influence so the angular difference changes depending on where you are.

Think of it this way. A compass will align itself along the magnetic lines of force and "point" at magnetic north like a hunting dog pointing at a rabbit. If the rabbit moves, so does the hunting dog, but true north never changes.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Thanks Paul,

I looked for something like that but wasn’t finding it (I thought it would probably be under USGS).

I ran the numbers for a point half the distance between Ckret’s A – B line and got about the same numbers:

For Coords N 46.942167, W 122.518117
11/24/1971 = 21° 15' E changing by 0° 2' W/year
11/24/1976 = 20° 54' E changing by 0° 6' W/year
11/24/1981 = 20° 23' E changing by 0° 5' W/year
11/24/1986 = 19° 55' E changing by 0° 5' W/year
11/24/1991 = 19° 28' E changing by 0° 5' W/year
11/24/1996 = 18° 55' E changing by 0° 8' W/year
11/24/2001 = 18° 10' E changing by 0° 10' W/year
11/24/2006 = 17° 20' E changing by 0° 9' W/year
05/05/2008 = 17° 5' E changing by 0° 9' W/year

So, for the difference between 11/2001 and today I get 3° 10' West.

So not knowing exactly how the FAA changes the radials the absolute worse case (difference in a point along V-23) would be 2.27 NM between MALAY and BTG VOR (41 NM x Tan 3.167° = 2.27 NM). A more reasonable case would be at the point where he was supposed to have jumped which gave a difference of 1.10 NM. That is assuming the radial designation for V-23 always stays the same and the radial is adjusted periodically for deltas in Mag. Dev. (i.e. V-23 from MALAY to BTG is always on the 151° radial FROM OLM.)

So the error (or maybe I should say “difference” because it isn’t really “error”) would probably be no more than 1.10 NM. However, if one were to attempt a boots-on-ground search, 1.10 NM is a large difference.

What all of this tells me, is that I need to get a better understanding of how the FAA handles Mag. Dev. before I continue.

Thanks again,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I think my secret has “gotten out”. So, I’ll fess up. One of the reasons that you haven’t heard much from me lately is that I am building a 3-D model...

Okay, now I'm having images of Richard Dreyfes in the movie "Close Encounters" going crazy with his obsession over UFO's, and building a model of the Devil's Tower rock formation out of mashed potatoes...