ltdiver 3
jonstark 8
QuoteQuoteWhy did you post a photo of a "Forked-tail Doctor Killer?"
No, Sluggo, he wants to distract us from the name he has given the "doctor-killer Bonanza" picture which any OLD computer gaming nut, such as myself, would recognize as *the* magick word used in early computer Adventure gaming.
If a player entered XYZZY at the appropriate time/place in early Adventure games they got teleported to the banks of the Columbia river where the players can choose to pick up $195,000 in $20s, the gun that killed MLK, the Holy Grail, three pairs of Britney's underwear or Duane Weber's first jump certificate.
If a player picks up the proper item, those following the DB Cooper thread are released from DB purgatory and allowed to go on with their lives.
If a players picks up the wrong item they are condemned to bicker about exit points, float time and how many times DB picked his nose while in the bathroom.
Best retort of either the old or new thread..!!! Excellent.
BillyVance 34
QuoteQuoteI also "may" have some shocking news about the found money. Before I go there though I need more proof but I promise, if true, everything we thought, or I thought about the money is wrong
Well if you are going to tell us there is no way the money got there by natural cause from the jump point that will not be any big surprise.
Your picture of the bag had me LMAO! You mean they actually gave him a bag like straight out of an old cartoon......or were you joking?
He's speaking in absolutes, so get ready...It might not have even been Cooper's money...
ltdiver
I thought it had been established that the serial numbers in that batch of money matched those sent out by the bank at DB's request?
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban
Albert18 0
QuoteQuoteWhy did you post a photo of a "Forked-tail Doctor Killer?"
If a player picks up the proper item, those following the DB Cooper thread are released from DB purgatory and allowed to go on with their lives.
If a players picks up the wrong item they are condemned to bicker about exit points, float time and how many times DB picked his nose while in the bathroom.
You crime whuffo's just don't get it do you.
Orange1 0
QuoteYou crime whuffo's just don't get it do you.
Ah, but at least we have a sense of humor.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Ckret:
THE BAG: How many times have I said the bag was not a heavy canvas and that if it had handles they would have to be cloth because it was folded very neatly in the console. The color was a gray to wheat color (time would have yellowed the cloth) with black or brown flecks - I only unwrapped it enough to see the writing and quickly put it back - I did not note or remember handles, but if they were there they were made of cloth.
THE JUMP SITE: Since I already know about where he jumped and where he landed - Ckret - depending on how long you are going to delay the jump - you could put him right on top of it. I do question what you said as it contradicts the tests they conducted and the written words on those tests and the statements from the crew.
Have you spoke with the co-pilot? He is the only one left living who can give it to you from the horses mouth or is the FBI going to wait until he dies?
THE MONEY: I am wondering what you are coming up with - I have repeatedly said that the bills needed to be examined with modern day forensics and not the forensics of the 70's. 
THE COMMUTATION: Today I got more information on the commutation which is NO information at all.
The Commutation has no files attached to it - which is what I expected. 
PRISON REGISTER: This shows John Collins was sentenced to prison in Missouri from the Greene county Circuit court January 1966. The case files seem to be obscured, but there is one more place to look for these - if they are not there then we can expect the file has been purged (what else did I expect).
Other information in the prison registery - ODD - his birth place is shown as Illinois, but he was born in Ohio? I do not know how much of the other information is different from what I already have and that will be a few more days.
If the case files are not in Greene County then that opens a case of WORMS. Who was with Duane when he commited the crime that put him in prison in Jefferson? I have a very good reason for wanting to know this - but that can wait. 
What I find most concerning (WORMY) is that the Commutation has no file - not even in the governors files.
Thanks to you guys (the forum) I am finding ways of obtaining information not available to me in the past. I am ever so grateful for that. I wish to thank all of you for putting up with me - YES, I am not very good with the words - but I am working so hard for the truth that I forget how to be nice (I guess the better word is TACTFUL), but then I have always opened mouth and inserted foot.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
PERFECT!
That's along the same lines of the sig-line I put on my profile a few days ago.
That is by far the best post out of either of the two threads!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Quote
I keep wondering why I read this dang thread 2-3 times a day!!
Guru - could it be getting a little too warm? If I was Cooper I think I would be reading it 2-3 times a day.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Orange1 0
On the flight line being "changed", this is absolutely not something recent as you seem to keep implying. I have seen a number of references in various articles that this was being questioned back to Himmelsbach days. For example:
QuoteOn Himmelsbach's last day with the bureau, the Northwest pilot came to visit. The agent learned for the first time that the pilot, who had been manually flying the plane that night because of Cooper's speed and altitude demands, was traveling farther east than authorities had realized. That meant the actual drop zone was probably south-southeast of the area that was searched.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
So, Safe might bash me again in case this was posted and i forgot, but I did a search and couldn't find it...
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/340794_cooper23.html
Quote
Forman said a friend of his -- who was a loner, like the FBI described -- confessed to Forman and his wife. The friend, who looked similar to the FBI sketch, was a proficient skydiver, an expert with dynamite and mysteriously disappeared in the days around the hijacking.
The kicker: Forman's friend was a woman named Barbara Dayton; family and friends say she is believed to be the first person in Washington to have a sex-change operation.
"What a perfect alibi," said her niece, Billie Dayton. "When my dad saw the FBI sketch, the first thing he said was, 'That looks like Bobby.' "
Barbara was born Bobby Dayton in 1926 and had the operation in December 1969, according to family. Forman said Dayton, who lived in West Seattle and was a University of Washington librarian, dressed like a man for the hijacking and disguised her voice.
She said she never spent the $200,000 because she hid it in a Woodburn, Ore., cistern near where she landed, her family said, but Dayton later recanted the story after she realized she still could be prosecuted for the crime, family said.
Forman believes the small amount of money found in 1980 deteriorating on a Columbia River bank -- the only money ever found and linked to Cooper -- was planted by Dayton to spark interest in the case.
Carr said the $5,800 that was found several miles from the suspected drop zone had a questionable path, but he doesn't buy Dayton's story.
Her height also didn't match descriptions from flight attendants, who sat close enough to know if Cooper actually was a woman, he said.
But even in the face of the FBI's dismissal, Dayton's family and friends still believe.
"People become so focused, they want their details to fit," Carr said, adding the FBI has investigated nearly 1,000 suspects.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/340794_cooper23.html
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 20
Sung to Eric Clapton's/Ray Davie's LOLA:
Well I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she fell from the sky she nearly blew my mind
Oh my Barbara.
Well girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, f----d up shook up world c'ept for Barbara.
Well I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she fell from the sky she nearly blew my mind
Oh my Barbara.
Well girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, f----d up shook up world c'ept for Barbara.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Orange1 0
QuoteSung to Eric Clapton's/Ray Davie's LOLA:
Well I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she fell from the sky she nearly blew my mind
Oh my Barbara.
Well girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, f----d up shook up world c'ept for Barbara.
now - get SERIOUS - you are showing what a "crime whuffo" you are by making jokes out of all this!
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
QuoteOn the flight line being "changed", this is absolutely not something recent as you seem to keep implying. I have seen a number of references in various articles that this was being questioned back to Himmelsbach days. For example:
QuoteOn Himmelsbach's last day with the bureau, the Northwest pilot came to visit. The agent learned for the first time that the pilot, who had been manually flying the plane that night because of Cooper's speed and altitude demands, was traveling farther east than authorities had realized. That meant the actual drop zone was probably south-southeast of the area that was searched.
If they change it to South South/East - I don't have a problem with that. Witnesses have put the plane S.SE but were told it was the chase planes making their loops. Go too far East and they will never make that place card fit the story. Nor will they make the money found in the Columbia fit.
I am familiar with what the pilot told Himmelsbach and I also don't remember where I read it...but he has stated that to me and others over the yrs. It is not in his book, but may have been from a news story regarding things he has said in one of the many interviews he has granted over the yrs.
Wonder what Ckret has up his sleeve with the money. Did they do anymore tests on the money?
The family who found the money was questioned and investigated throughly and no evidence of foul play was found. The ex-wife of the young man who found the money - contacted me at one time. We spoke by phone and emails...I expect she has been following this thread. Any comments she made to me are private.
The divorce was obviously bitter and according to the media if he ever sells the money he will have to pay all of the back child support to the state and/or her. When he went public to sell the money the media immediately grabbed hold of the story. It got rather nasty, but there hasn't been anything recently, so we have no way of knowing if there has been a resolution between the parties.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
One last time...
"It's like a whirlwind exiting at 170 kts"
I'll take people at their word on this. I have no reason to doubt it.
"There's no way a teathered suspension line would hold exiting at 170kts"
This is speculation. While I'll agree to the vague description of a "whirlwind," using it to conclude with absolute certainty that the bag had to come loose within the first 2 or 3 seconds due to wind is a bit of a stretch, and is actually fallacious.
First, we do not know for certain how the bag was secured to his person. We can guess based on the limited amount that Tina saw.
Second, the line used was suspension line. The tensil strength of the line was something like 500+ pounds.
In the absence of any actual empirical observations such as "I jumped with a 22 pound bag at 170 kts secured to me with suspension line and it broke off immediately", the only way to judge such a claim is by using other evidence.
Because we can figure out the approximate size of the bag and we know what the wind force was, we can calculate the maximum wind force produced.
This isn't "discounting" what others say because all that has been said is that it's windy and that two people holding hands at such an exit speed cannot keep them together.
Therefore, we have the known maximum force to help us in our "guess" if the money stayed atttached at exit. We also have other tidbits of evidence such as timeline, jump location, and location of the find... all of which suggest the bag remained on Cooper through the intital wind.
Now please tell me, how did I just "discount" what "everyone" has told me??? Please, cut and paste a line and show me where.
If you can't do it, then either ignore this post or admit that you're making assertions about me that aren't true.
"It's like a whirlwind exiting at 170 kts"
I'll take people at their word on this. I have no reason to doubt it.
"There's no way a teathered suspension line would hold exiting at 170kts"
This is speculation. While I'll agree to the vague description of a "whirlwind," using it to conclude with absolute certainty that the bag had to come loose within the first 2 or 3 seconds due to wind is a bit of a stretch, and is actually fallacious.
First, we do not know for certain how the bag was secured to his person. We can guess based on the limited amount that Tina saw.
Second, the line used was suspension line. The tensil strength of the line was something like 500+ pounds.
In the absence of any actual empirical observations such as "I jumped with a 22 pound bag at 170 kts secured to me with suspension line and it broke off immediately", the only way to judge such a claim is by using other evidence.
Because we can figure out the approximate size of the bag and we know what the wind force was, we can calculate the maximum wind force produced.
This isn't "discounting" what others say because all that has been said is that it's windy and that two people holding hands at such an exit speed cannot keep them together.
Therefore, we have the known maximum force to help us in our "guess" if the money stayed atttached at exit. We also have other tidbits of evidence such as timeline, jump location, and location of the find... all of which suggest the bag remained on Cooper through the intital wind.
Now please tell me, how did I just "discount" what "everyone" has told me??? Please, cut and paste a line and show me where.
If you can't do it, then either ignore this post or admit that you're making assertions about me that aren't true.
I've been accused of using FRS in a way that it was "never intended" and relying upon this to trump reason.
FRS was developed first as a way to identify undesirable casino patrons. In the old days, pit bosses and security personnel had to rely upon physical photos and the Griffen Book. In the late 90s, software emerged that made it possible to track undesirables in a database and to compare any patron to the database using computers.
When the comparison is done, a photo is compared to a photo. The two photos are never the same and are never taken from the same exact angle.
Further, casino undesirables are known to use disguises, so the software had to have adequate technology to sort through this and to be able to tell the difference between an undesirable and an ordinary player.
The solution was a biometric algorithm that measure points on a face, points that cannot change over time and cannot change with a disguise.
The tests conducted in Las Vegas regarding the Cooper case used one of these databases and the FRS technology to compare some suspects and the database against the FBI composite sketch.
Like a typical comparison, the test used two photos. Instead of two photos taken from video surveillance, photos were instead scanned in. This was the primary difference and the "not designed for" aspect that I've been accused of. The only other difference is that one of the photos was a sketch, but due to the nature of FRS, the points on the face were easily identified and could be compared just any other photo.
The database contained roughly 3,000 individuals including three suspects. When the comparison was done, a top choice was found. It was never said that it was an absolute match, but rather it was just a top choice out of the database.
The probability for any one individual being a top choice would be about 1 in 3,000 chance.
The person who just so happened to be the top biometric choice in the database also just so happened to confess to the crime.
That's not me doing anything. I'm just stating what was done, how it was done, and what could be inferred from it.
It's not proof. I never said it was proof. What I did say was that it was significant. How much significance you put on this is up to you, but "mathematically" I'd consider it relevant just because not just anyone can come in off the street and be a top choice in a test like this.
Further, in a case with vast amounts of information and facts, it's only one small piece and should be considered in light of everything else.
I'm eagerly awaiting the new evidence regarding the money, the timeline, and jump location because a change to any of these could easily alter my opinions.
FRS was developed first as a way to identify undesirable casino patrons. In the old days, pit bosses and security personnel had to rely upon physical photos and the Griffen Book. In the late 90s, software emerged that made it possible to track undesirables in a database and to compare any patron to the database using computers.
When the comparison is done, a photo is compared to a photo. The two photos are never the same and are never taken from the same exact angle.
Further, casino undesirables are known to use disguises, so the software had to have adequate technology to sort through this and to be able to tell the difference between an undesirable and an ordinary player.
The solution was a biometric algorithm that measure points on a face, points that cannot change over time and cannot change with a disguise.
The tests conducted in Las Vegas regarding the Cooper case used one of these databases and the FRS technology to compare some suspects and the database against the FBI composite sketch.
Like a typical comparison, the test used two photos. Instead of two photos taken from video surveillance, photos were instead scanned in. This was the primary difference and the "not designed for" aspect that I've been accused of. The only other difference is that one of the photos was a sketch, but due to the nature of FRS, the points on the face were easily identified and could be compared just any other photo.
The database contained roughly 3,000 individuals including three suspects. When the comparison was done, a top choice was found. It was never said that it was an absolute match, but rather it was just a top choice out of the database.
The probability for any one individual being a top choice would be about 1 in 3,000 chance.
The person who just so happened to be the top biometric choice in the database also just so happened to confess to the crime.
That's not me doing anything. I'm just stating what was done, how it was done, and what could be inferred from it.
It's not proof. I never said it was proof. What I did say was that it was significant. How much significance you put on this is up to you, but "mathematically" I'd consider it relevant just because not just anyone can come in off the street and be a top choice in a test like this.
Further, in a case with vast amounts of information and facts, it's only one small piece and should be considered in light of everything else.
I'm eagerly awaiting the new evidence regarding the money, the timeline, and jump location because a change to any of these could easily alter my opinions.
ltdiver 3
QuoteOne last time...
"It's like a whirlwind exiting at 170 kts"
I'll take people at their word on this. I have no reason to doubt it.
This isn't "discounting" what others say because all that has been said is that it's windy and that two people holding hands at such an exit speed cannot keep them together.
SafePLF. It's really too bad you're not a skydiver (or at least have tasted a tandem flight). I've done a bit of searching and the best I can come up with to illustrate the forces over the tail of a jet in flight is this jet test in a wind tunnel. Take a look around frames .27-.32 into the video for an approximate view of the vortex forces we are subject to when we exit the jet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT79WRtJUmI
Oh, and btw, it's not correct in quoting me that 'holding hands' is not doable out of a jet. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3147589;search_string=holding%20hands;#3147589 It's attempting to hold -anything- not strapped to you. Holding someone else's rig in front of you...their grips (legs or arm grips). It can be done, but a very very low probability of success. (Holding grips is NOT 'holding hands'.)
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
Orange1 0
(sigh)...stop getting so aggro and defensive all the time... and just go do a jump, ok? tunnel just does not prepare you at all for exit. then you won't need "whirlwind" to be a "vague description". "whirlwind" is the kind of exit forces where people have for example dislocated arms on exit from jets (like a jumper in WT04 did).
i'm not saying the bag did or didn't come loose. but you clearly underestimated what the forces were. as db cooper may well have IF he was not an experienced jumper, as we have seen by various whuffo comments on here. do you have any clue as to what his experience with knots was? you may be convinced on your "evidence" that the bag didn't come loose. i haven't seen enough evidence to convince me either way.
incidentally.. on tensile strength. parachute lines can snap if the forces on them are large enough. go search the incidents forum for examples. i seriously doubt the forces would be on a tied-on bag, but a plain assumption that because they are suspension lines they didn't break is not backed up by empirical evidence.
as for discounting, you've made enough comments about how your fornulae are superior to everything else, i really don't know what more i can add.
can you do me a calculation to show how long it would have taken a novice jumper with sensory overload to stop tumbling through the night and get stable enough to successfully pull a ripcord on a rig with what evidence from the riggers says would have been a very hard pull?
i'm not saying the bag did or didn't come loose. but you clearly underestimated what the forces were. as db cooper may well have IF he was not an experienced jumper, as we have seen by various whuffo comments on here. do you have any clue as to what his experience with knots was? you may be convinced on your "evidence" that the bag didn't come loose. i haven't seen enough evidence to convince me either way.
incidentally.. on tensile strength. parachute lines can snap if the forces on them are large enough. go search the incidents forum for examples. i seriously doubt the forces would be on a tied-on bag, but a plain assumption that because they are suspension lines they didn't break is not backed up by empirical evidence.
as for discounting, you've made enough comments about how your fornulae are superior to everything else, i really don't know what more i can add.
can you do me a calculation to show how long it would have taken a novice jumper with sensory overload to stop tumbling through the night and get stable enough to successfully pull a ripcord on a rig with what evidence from the riggers says would have been a very hard pull?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
QuoteThe solution was a biometric algorithm that measure points on a face, points that cannot change over time and cannot change with a disguise.
But points on a sketch of a face can and have changed over time.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Holding grips is NOT 'holding hands
My apologies.
The point was that a teathered line is the not the same as a holding grip.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that a holding grip won't work at said speed, or at best will not work with any level of consistenty and that the probability would favor the two objects coming apart.
The crux of my "math" was only to calculate the max force of wind against the sack of money. That max force was something like 160 to 180 pounds of force (this off the top of my head so don't quote it).
You can then use that information for yourself to figure out the likelihood of the secured bag coming off of Cooper at exit.
This is such a minor piece of information to me that it's really not worth discussing. I base my opinion not on this calculation, but on everything else in the case.
I leave and left the calculation for all to see so that they can use to determine the probabilty of the line snapping for themselves. I have no opinion other than 160-180 pounds of force may not be enough to conclusively determine that the line snapped.
I don't see what my experience or inexperience has to do with anything here. I'm not basing my opinion on conjecture and I've stated that countless times.
My apologies.
The point was that a teathered line is the not the same as a holding grip.
I'm perfectly willing to accept that a holding grip won't work at said speed, or at best will not work with any level of consistenty and that the probability would favor the two objects coming apart.
The crux of my "math" was only to calculate the max force of wind against the sack of money. That max force was something like 160 to 180 pounds of force (this off the top of my head so don't quote it).
You can then use that information for yourself to figure out the likelihood of the secured bag coming off of Cooper at exit.
This is such a minor piece of information to me that it's really not worth discussing. I base my opinion not on this calculation, but on everything else in the case.
I leave and left the calculation for all to see so that they can use to determine the probabilty of the line snapping for themselves. I have no opinion other than 160-180 pounds of force may not be enough to conclusively determine that the line snapped.
I don't see what my experience or inexperience has to do with anything here. I'm not basing my opinion on conjecture and I've stated that countless times.
Well if you are going to tell us there is no way the money got there by natural cause from the jump point that will not be any big surprise.
Your picture of the bag had me LMAO! You mean they actually gave him a bag like straight out of an old cartoon......or were you joking?
He's speaking in absolutes, so get ready...It might not have even been Cooper's money...
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon