DB Cooper

[quade 3]

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There was a book called "The Falcon and the Snowman".

Yes and in neither case were the aliases related to either their first, middle or last names.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[low_pull1 2]

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If the Thanksgiving Holiday was to help him in the getaway, then he PLANNED to be on foot in the middle of the night/following day.
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or at the least, back to work by monday

[low_pull1 2]

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The better question to figure out is, how did he know this route would have a 727?
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Good Question ! And why did he ask...maybe he knew there was another plane used on this route at times?

chuck

[low_pull1 2]

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He knew it wouldn’t be packed, because no plane was ever packed in 1971.

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Unless you have some sort of proof of this, I'm going to call this claim into question just based on when and why NWA started purchasing larger aircraft, notably the 747, to replace smaller aircraft like the 707 and 727; 1970. (1)
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i can tell you this, i never saw a packed plane in the 70s....mostly 1/2 full the few times i flew. now thats two of us

[AggieDave 6]

What, no one is mentioning this?

http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/17275759.html

I know C. Walling, he's a great guy. He used to be an avid balloon pilot and has flown jumpers in his balloon in the past.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ltdiver 3]

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What, no one is mentioning this?

http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/17275759.html

I know C. Walling, he's a great guy. He used to be an avid balloon pilot and has flown jumpers in his balloon in the past.

Yes, it's been mentioned, and dismissed by this forum as the parachute manufacture date is in 1946 and this pilot's bail out was in 1945.

The news takes a different slant, though.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[skyjack71 0]

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With Cooper being 40+ years old in 1971, if still alive, he is very much a senior citizen today. Add to this the fact the FBI thinks he died that night. Therefore is there any chance his indictment will be removed? This would be an excellent way to move this investigation forward. With all threat of prosecution removed, if nobody comes forward with new information, then I think it is safe to say your theory is pretty sound..

That defies logic - THINK - every Tom, Dick and Harry would be coming forth to say "I'm Dan Cooper".

It would be a mad house and make more Mayfields and Christiansen's - the FBI would have more on their hands than they already do.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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And how come Ckret picks and chooses for what he replies to? was there any answer to my post on cutting implement? or any answer to the knapsack phrase.
I don't get it, actually.

Ckret does this in his OFF time and as a kindness to the site and the public. Some questions he cannot answer or chooses not to answer.

You are not being ignored anymore than I or others are. Yet, you hounded and pounded on the age thing until he got fed up - and he probably won't be back...I wouldn't blame him.

He was posting to try to help - he was not here for FUN and GAMES. He does have a job to do.....

It would be NICE if you would apologize to him for being such a _ _ _ _ .

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

Jo,

I don't know what to say, are you turning sweet on me after all we've been through. I am not going away, just don't have the energy to participate. Not only do I work bank robbery but I also work other criminal matters that are taking a huge chunck of my time. The events of the Cooper case in the last two weeks have really put me behind, thats all.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quade,

My High-speed (yeah riiight) cable has been out for a little while, so I had some time to think about my flying experience(s) in the years between 1969 and 1971.

After this post:

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He knew it wouldn’t be packed, because no plane was ever packed in 1971.
________________________________________

Unless you have some sort of proof of this, I'm going to call this claim into question just based on when and why NWA started purchasing larger aircraft, notably the 747, to replace smaller aircraft like the 707 and 727; 1970. (1)

I got a little angry, well maybe not angry, just miffed. I’m fixing dinner and saying to myself; “Who does he think he is, questioning the veracity of a statement made by Sluggo?”

Then I thought about it, and I realize it doesn’t make much sense, but I’m not senile yet (my birthday is Saturday and I plan to get senile then), and I distinctly remember flying on planes with few passengers. In fact, I never had to sit next to a stranger, ever. Totally opposite from today.

Then I thought about the circumstances, I was flying short hops (commuter flights). I did take one cross-country flight in ‘69 but the rest were Bay Area to Sou. Cal. And back.

There were three airlines that I flew, (Hughes) Air West, something called PSA, and Air California. At both SFO and SJC, there were flights going to LAX and SNA that left each hour. Maybe Air West was on the hour, Air Cal on the half-hour, you get the picture. So going to Sou. Cal was like catching a bus. For the one longer flight I took SFO to ATL, I honestly don’t remember much about it, and certainly whether it was crowded or not.

So, maybe I should have qualified my statement, stating that it was based on my experience flying commuter airlines in 1971.

However, that is exactly the same kind of flight Cooper was on.


SKYWHUFFO ,

Yes, they assigned seating back then much as today, except you had to specify smoking or non-smoking. (My mind is playing a scene from “Airplane” right now.
And, yes, I had you pegged. In fact, you know when you imagine someone that you have never seen or heard, you think about someone you already know. Well, your analog, is a consultant for a company that sells computerized comm. Equip to LE Agencies and works from home.


low_pull,

Thanks.


Cheers,

Sluggo_Monster


PS: While my cable was out I had DZ.com withdrawal. I thought I was in DTs.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 20]

Dr. Sluggo,

It's anecdotal, no statistical validity, but I flew PSA a lot back in the early 70s, smiling planes and barely clad stews. The planes were seldom crowded, waaay less than todays flights. I never got bumped. I liked their 727s, fast and overpowered. They had a few Lockheed Electras in the system even in the mid 70s. Liked them too.

I get stuck on Cooper themes and right now I am glued to the issue of how he found out that you could jump from a 727. Maybe it is like my SAGE radar addiction and will amount to nothing.

I am convinced Cooper was no skydiver. Ckret's conclusions from Cooper's gear choices is correct in my opinion. Also, if he was a jumper he likely would have been figured out by others and word would have spread. That never happened.

I have not been able to confirm that Boeing was the sole source of info on the ability to deploy a 727 rear door in flight at the time of Cooper's hijack, still digging.

I like out of the box thinkers, like those who said Cooper never existed and that the crew faked the whole thing. We need some more unconventional intellects pondering this mystery.

Every time I get a cold windy rainy night I put myself in Cooper's shoes. That guy sure had balls. It would have been so scary to step off those stairs into the night and then it would get even scarier as you tumbled wildly and
lost all attitude orientation. Then you try and find the ripcord... it just goes from scary to terrifying and beyond.

I wonder what Ckret thinks about Coopers courage profile? Should we rule out wimpy guys? Could a shy, cautious withdrawn person have made the leap? Do those types ever rob banks?

I know that some criminals get really scared doing crimes. More than a few robbers have soiled their pants when things didn't go as they had planned. Maybe that explains Cooper's trip to the bathroom.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

[novalis 0]

i am not a skydiver and can therefore hardly say anything about, looking at cooper's actions on that day, whether he knew anything about jumping.

however i would like to raise this point.
put yourself in his place. the jump is part of his plan-- a big part. would you leave the success of the jump up to the good luck of the novice? i think anyone on this board would prepare, i.e. practice and inform himself. one's life depends on the jump.
i do not see any reason to suppose that cooper would be less concerned with his own saftey on a jump than any of us, and therefore no reason why he would go into it completley unprepared. do you?

[novalis 0]

certainly i think the man chose the flight on a day before the holiday because generally they are less full. [is this a fact or does it depend on the holiday? certainly the day before labor day, which i have flown all over the usa east of the miss. has been pretty slow in recent years. (was it in 1971, i don't know.)

did cooper investigate the type of plane most likely to be used on that flight? (just what kind of a nut do people think he was? his plan depends on the back stairs. there is no reason to assume that he was less intelligent than any of us: we would look into the matter. why wouldn't he?)
if it had turned out that for some reason a different type of plane had been chosen at the last minute, he could have gotten off the plane with the bomb just as easily as he got on with the bomb. he didn't have to show his hand until he felt the conditions he needed were right. (this needn't have been the first time dan tried; just the first time he felt "comfortable" with things.)

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Since I work with probabilities all the time, I tend to think in terms of "odds" and not absolutes. This allows me the freedom to have an opinion, but also know there are other "possibilities" as well. Odds are a matter of relative strength of a deduction.

Having said that, I agree with you regarding Cooper having some jump experience. How much? No one knows (except Cooper, and he's not exactly around to tell us)...

You're right, it's a bit crazy to think he'd plan this out and never consider that he's a total newb. He had at least one jump under his belt. He may not have been "experienced" by today's standards, but he at least made on legit jump before doing this.

I agree with 377, I do not think he was a member of the community. That would imply a level of expertise that Cooper (likely) did not have as given by his decisions, actions, etc. What increases the odds for me is that the FBI went around to all these DZs and hounded the people... and the best they came up with? Mayfield.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if he were a member of the community, someone, somewhere, may have fingered him to the authorities.

As for the day/time of the jump. He chose a night jump. He wanted the cash by 5 pm. The end of civil twilight is 4:59 that day... it was a night jump on purpose.

The day cannot be chalked up to chance. I'm sorry, but the day before one of TWO major U.S. holidays (the other is Christmas) is not really chance. It was calculated either because he expected less law enforcement (less people to catch him) or because he was going to use the holiday (when people are at home) to make his escape.... or my guess, a combination of both.

As to how crowded the planes would be...
I can't comment. I wasn't around back then. I will offer this insight though: the flight was a 30 minute commute by plane. It's a 2 hour drive. Gas prices were cheap back then, you could get to Seattle and back for less than $18 in gasoline.

Further, Portland was a low population city and Seattle wasn't that much greater...

This plane had come all the way from Washington DC. It had more capacity than what would be expected for a small commute like this.

But that last part is pure conjecture... I have nothing to base it on. Cooper obviously felt little risk in showing up at 2 o'clock and purchasing the ticket as per his plan, and expected to achieve his goal without being thwarted.

One last thing... if the flight was not crowded, would it be common for average people to WANT to sit in the rear of the plane???? You'll be the last one off...

My apologies for the thinking out loud on this one. Feel free to rip it to shreds.

[low_pull1 2]

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however i would like to raise this point.
put yourself in his place. the jump is part of his plan-- a big part. would you leave the success of the jump up to the good luck of the novice?
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Id think he made at least one Jump in his past....this reduces the risk considerably.

There was much more risk in obtaining the rigs than making the jump. Was Cooper a novice? Is it probable that cooper had performed at least one robbery?

[itllclear 1]

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In fact, students flew at half-price

I remember doing that many times flying between Chicago and New York for holidays.

As far load factors, I remember one flight on a 747 that was almost empty. The stews got on our case for tossing a frisbee around the section that had only 4 college students in it.


Also something to add to the "skydiving experience" thoughts.

It was common to jump a modified military canopy as a main back then. I made my first jump in 1969, bought a military surplus rig with a modified 28' canopy (still in my garage) and didn't buy a ParaCommander until 1973.

Also, it was common to take observers on jump planes, and they would be issued pilot emergency rigs (the NB-6 is one type) and given a short "first jump course" on what to do if they bailed out.

In November, 1970, a friend with no skydiving experience known to me, accompanied me to the DZ and took this photo of me.

Right after he took the photo, he handed the camera to another observer in the plane and followed me out and managed to find and pull the ripcord and land safely on the DZ.

You know the help wanted sign "No Experience Necessary?" It could have applied here.

BSBD Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

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Don't get too carried away. MODERN equipment doesn't handle 200 knot wind blasts too well unless we're ready for it. Modern equipment is routinely used a 150 mph plus in normal skydiving.

The kind of equipment the pioneer would have been wasn't that much different than military gear. It would have handled and would have been expected to handle the wind blast just as well.

Councilman,

Sorry, I agree with you above, my point was your post had me thinking about his choice of rigs. What would prompt him to choose the NB6? You and i as well as others on here that are experienced jumpers, would have probably chose the sport rig. I think this gives tus a clue to the question about his experience level. Did he choose the NB6 because that is what he was acustom 2 thru the military or It looked closer to what he had seen at a DZ when he investigated jumping or the one jump he did? The opinion I have made is he had "some" exposure to the skydiving community Think about how many Whuffo's who show up at the DZ that you have seen asking a million questions about the equipment, what you are doing as you are gearing up on last call, or that says they are "possibly interested " in jumping and sombody shows them the "DZ tour" trying to get them to jump. The reason I say a newbie or pilot, the NB6 is going to be more common for them to have and show to Cooper.

• Quote

[Albert18 0]

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That defies logic - THINK - every Tom, Dick and Harry would be coming forth to say "I'm Dan Cooper".

It would be a mad house and make more Mayfields and Christiansen's - the FBI would have more on their hands than they already do.

The real "Dan Cooper" cooperating? It would take Ckret a small portion of a lunch break to know he might have the real deal. Slightly longer if it was somebody who knew the real "Dan Cooper".

[novalis 0]

thanks for your reply. yes we are all working with probabilites; i don't see how it could be otherwise in a matter like this.

the fact the man chose a night jump, as you point out, is the type of fact that makes me think he had a pretty good background in what he was doing: perhaps a flight crew member during his military service etc. certainly a man who had done at least one jump. i think there are also indications that he was in a position to, and did do, research on the type of plane he was in.
as to riding in the back of the plane. that served his purpose in being able to keep an eye on the others.
(irrelevant to cooper but some one asked the question why one might take the back: it has always struck me -- the complete layman -- when i see photos of plane crashes that if any part of the plane is still in one piece, it's almost always the tail section.)

[dumstuntzz 0]

maybe he chose the nb6 over the pioneer sport rig because the pioneer rig would have been stamped(on the botton flap in inch and a half red letters)
LOW SPEED PARACHUTE LIMITED TO USE IN AIRCRAFT UNDER 150 MPH

[novalis 0]

you ask, did he commit a robbery before this. certainly a legitimate question. i tend to think that he had knowledge of airplanes, flight procedures, i.e. was an engineer, had military experience, or law enforcement experience related to flight. i say this because, yes, i think there was a lot of preperation involved in what the man did; the "enviornment" he chose that day was not completely new to him. i tend to think that it was this type of preperation, i.e. experience with the "enviornment", rather than a career in robbery because 1) the amt. of money he asked for seemed to be below what others in the same "industry" were asking for and getting, 2) if it were just for the money, couldn't he have gotten it with less risk by robbing a bank, or something like that? the penalty for plane hijacking was death--if your just in the robbery biz. there are less dangerous ways of getting cash to meet the monthly bills.

these are of course conjectures. none of us know. i merely wanted to agree, yes, as i read the man there was "preperation" at several levels: on the jump, and on the hijacking. i wanted to suggest a type of hijacking preperation that might account for his choice, without his having necessarily done a "heist" before.

[dumstuntzz 0]

Gas was cheap back then and you could drive to seattle and back for less than $18.how far is to seattle? gas back then was about $.29 a gallon or thereabouts

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Going off of memory/feel... the distance from PDX to SEA-TAC would be about 180 miles.

Just looked at mapquest and it tells me portland to seatac is 163 miles.

Suppose 180 miles, 15 miles per gallon.
You use 12 gallons of gas to get up, 12 gallons to get back. $3.48 each way! (at 29 cents a gallon).

If you were a family going to visit parents, grandparents, or other relatives, why pay $18 per ticket when the whole family can travel for less than $10 ROUND TRIP?

In other words, it's not like all these families would crowd the 4pm shuttle to SeaTac.

[Albert18 0]

I thought it was interesting when I first saw a picture of "Ckret", I thought whoa, that guy is brimming with confidence. A good thing to have when you are dealing with the environment he is in. The point is, I think you can get a basic reading on somebody from just one picture.

When I saw the pictures of Tina and Flo, I see two very different people. Tina appears to be overwhelmed, and Flo, not even close. Flo looks like someone who could backhand you into next week. Isn't it interesting Cooper chooses Tina as the person he keeps close to him.


I agree with the idea Cooper must have had some kind of jump experience but he wasn't part of a skydiving community. This is why I do not understand the criticism of his decision not to bring his own gear. To acquire gear is to create a trail for the FBI to discover. Also, there is virtually a 100% chance he would have to stow the gear upon landing. Stowed gear can be discovered, ask McCoy. If the FBI gets their hands on your gear, it's probably lights out, not so if you do what Cooper did.

Look at the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. Bruno brought his own lumber(ladder) to the crime, not a good idea.