DB Cooper

[quade 3]

Quote

If there is a consensus, it would be that Cooper had some experience with parachutes and/or skydiving to some capacity. It's highly unlikely that Cooper would be a complete "novice".

I think "highly unlikely" is somewhat overstating the case.

It may be "more likely" that he had experience which is why the prime suspects are, well, prime suspects, but the idea of getting away by jumping shouldn't be restricted to only those that had in the past jumped and again I would say that the more experienced the jumper was at that particular moment in time, the less likely they would have been to have even contemplated that particular jump on that particular night and location.

I believe that the less informed person would have thought it was easier and survivable.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Three primary suspects are known to have jump experience. Weber's experience or inexperience has not been shown nor proven in anyway. There has been some hearsay to suggest Weber had some exposure to parachutes at some point.

I don't recall what that hearsay was, or what form the "exposure" took? I do know there was a lot of effort made to try put him in a parachute, in any shape and form (the supposed prison smoke jumping program which apparently never existed, for example) with absolutely no success.

When you say 3 suspects with experience, are you including McCoy?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I would say that the more experienced the jumper was at that particular moment in time, the less likely they would have been to have even contemplated that particular jump on that particular night and location.

I think that's an extremely astute observation and insightful path of thinking.

It would imply that Cooper barely had any experience and was over confident (or had a deathwish).

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Yes, McCoy, Christiansen, and Mayfield all are known to have jump experience.

Cook's guy isn't even named and thus, the chatter about him hasn't been much, but he had experience as well.

The "hearsay" I refer to would be:
Him allegedly saying he hurt his leg once jumping out of a plane.
Him allegedly describing how hang gliders steer.
Him allegedly pointing to an area in Alabama and saying "that's where we used to jump"
Skyjack having the post Duane garage sale and selling something weird that was in his desk; the purchaser allegedly said it was part of a parachute and that he collected those sorts of things.

It's all hearsay (from our perspective, not Jo's) but if true would at least suggest he had some exposure at some point in his life.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

he knows for example how long it takes to fuel, he asked that the flaps be put at a certain angle, etc.) does he also know that it can't get to mexico that way? if this is the case he delibertly provokes a conversation with the crew that he knows will give him the option that he is really seeking. (they give him several desitnations and several routes

Since I was the one that first suggested (on this forum) that he used the “magician’s re-direction trick” to ensure that the flight took V-23, I feel a little funny arguing with someone who obviously agrees with me. But… As most of the posters here know, I’m really trying to keep the myth away from the facts.

What makes you think he knew anything about how long it would take to fuel the plane? From the transcript it appears that only the pilot was upset by the “vapor-lock” on the first fuel truck.

In the strictest sense, he did not have any direct communication with the cockpit crew. They never left the cockpit and he never went forward of the first class curtain. Communicating through notes written and delivered by T Mucklow, he asked for Mexico City and said no landings in US. They said they must refuel in the US. He requested to refuel in Phoenix, they thought Phoenix was stretching it and asked for Reno. He agreed to Reno. (Of course we know he couldn’t care less, he was going to jump).

When you ask for parachutes, then specify a destination 2000 miles away, what message are you sending? The FAA psychiatrist thought it was; “I’m going to jump and blow up the plane after I have left.”

See attached snippet.

Boy, I can only imagine how those guys felt!


Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Has there been anyone on this thread that has ever suggested that Cooper was a total wuffo?

I can't recall any.

I thought that this was the original contention of the FBI.
The FBI focused on some irrelevant piece of information and concluded that Cooper was not a jumper.

Edited to add:
clicky

Quote

A few things to keep in mind, according to Special Agent Carr:

* Cooper was no expert skydiver. “We originally thought Cooper was an experienced jumper, perhaps even a paratrooper,” says Special Agent Carr. “We concluded after a few years this was simply not true. No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200-mile-an-hour wind in his face, wearing loafers and a trench coat. It was simply too risky. He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shut—something a skilled skydiver would have checked.”

Of course, that whole issue was beat around for 30 pages on the last thread. I don't want to revisit this, just providing information.

[Albert18 0]

Quote

I would say that the more experienced the jumper was at that particular moment in time, the less likely they would have been to have even contemplated that particular jump on that particular night and location.

I think that's an extremely astute observation and insightful path of thinking.

It would imply that Cooper barely had any experience and was over confident (or had a deathwish).

Weather provides cover. The weather conditions might have been responsible for him getting away. The weather conditions delayed the ground search.

If he had jumped at high noon in June, we would probably know his name.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Sluggo,
He probably had some understanding of refueling, or at least that's what has been implied when he got agitated in SeaTac. Captain Scott definitely noticed the extra long time and told them not to use any tactics.

Nice post.

Happythoughts,
There's levels between total novice and expert. Quade agrees with the FBI's take on Cooper's experience level, but I don't think the FBI thinks he was a complete novice. One or two jumps would have given him some level of knowledge.

Albert18,
Weather and time of day are two different things. I think you meant time of day... I would concur with your take, he jumps in mid day and he's busted. At night, how are they going to search for him? Plus, he was able to get a head start (if he lived) since they did not "know" that he jumped.

I'm fairly sure Cooper banked on getting a head start and never considered that leaving the plane would cause a "pressure bump" or oscillation that would allow authorities to pinpoint his jump.

[dumstuntzz 0]

since there is a whole lot of cojecture on here,let me throw out this question...
cossey supposedly says it was a 28ft canopy in the nb6 container. as a rigger w/ over 40 yrs experience in the field, i know that such a combination would have created a VERY hard pull(possibly even a no pull). since the nb6 most likely had a pull force of over 22 lbs(the faa limit)would cosey or whoever packed it be legally responsible for coopers death,if he bounced?(i.e. could they be sued by coopers estate for his death?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Cossey was quoted this week as saying "I might owe him" when referring to Cooper's possible demise.

Other than that, 377 would you like to tackle the "estate" question?

dumstuntzz,
Is there any type of 28 round that would have worked with an NB6? Could the container have been altered, or the material of the round be different?

[pchapman 261]

Quote

cossey supposedly says it was a 28ft canopy in the nb6 container. as a rigger w/ over 40 yrs experience in the field, i know that such a combination would have created a VERY hard pull(possibly even a no pull).

Yet the rigs were presumably already in service?

I.e., even if "very tight", they were already packed up and someone was expected to wear them. Unless Cossey had poor rigging skills at the time, he would have expected the rigs to be functional.

Presumably, if they had no front mount D rings sewn on, they would have been used as pilot rigs by the DZ?

There is still a lot that seems not to be known about the choice of rigs & canopies.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

You know, since I have been on this forum, I have never taken any position that involves the art and/or science of skydiving. I couldn’t… I have absolutely zero knowledge, skill, or experience. I have to leave that up to the “jumpers”. But something that I do know a tiny bit about (as a pilot) is the weather.

I want to go on record as saying; “I don’t think the weather that night was nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be”. It wasn’t exactly “swimming weather” but it wasn’t “the storm of the century” either.

So let’s talk about the weather.

In Ckret’s first post he said:

Quote

The weather: Ceiling of 5,000 feet, broken clouds at 3,500, scattered clouds at 1,500. Winds of 12 to 14 knots, light rain showers.

I don’t know where that info came from, but I assume it was from the FAA and recorded in the FBI’s investigation documents. Also, the Outside Air Temperature (OAT) at 10,0000 ft. MSL was reported by NW 305 as being -7 ºC (19 ºF).

The questions/opinions that have been frequently asked/stated on this forum revolve around; “If he wasn’t a no-pull, how would he have survived in that gawd-awful weather?” So I wanted to look at ground-level weather for the night he jumped and the next day when he, presumably, made his getaway.

Making the assumption that he jumped somewhere near Amboy (as per the search-zone map and the location of the not-yet-proven parachute find), I got histories from the only two stations (that I could find, with histories of that night), located near Amboy. The stations are Olympia, WA and Portland, OR.

Since the historical records (that I could find) are 24 hour roll-ups I got data for 11/24/1971 and 11/25/1971 for both stations. Since he jumped at around 08:15 (dig, dig, dig) on the 24th, it could be assumed that the low temperature would have occurred just before dawn on the 25th, but I have included the data for the 24th anyway.

Here’s what I found:

Olympia 11/24/1971
Minimum temperature reported during the day = 46.0 °F
Maximum temperature reported during the day = 48.0 °F
Mean visibility for the day = 10.9 mi
Mean wind speed for the day = 13.81 mph
Maximum sustained wind speed reported for the day = 18.10 mph
Rain occurred during this 24 hr. period.
No Snow, Hail, Thunder, Tornado, or Fog

Olympia 11/25/1971
Minimum temperature reported during the day = 39.0 °F
Maximum temperature reported during the day = 45.0 °F
Mean visibility for the day = 11.3 mi
Mean wind speed for the day = 11.05 mph
Maximum sustained wind speed reported for the day = 13.00 mph
Rain occurred during this 24 hr. period.
No Snow, Hail, Thunder, Tornado, or Fog

Portland 11/24/1971
Minimum temperature reported during the day = 45.0 °F
Maximum temperature reported during the day = 51.1 °F
Mean visibility for the day = 14.5 mi
Mean wind speed for the day = 12.43 mph
Maximum sustained wind speed reported for the day = 14.00 mph
Rain occurred during this 24 hr. period.
No Snow, Hail, Thunder, Tornado, or Fog

Portland 11/25/1971
Minimum temperature reported during the day = 43.0 °F
Maximum temperature reported during the day = 48.0 °F
Mean visibility for the day = 18.0 mi
Mean wind speed for the day = 8.40 mph
Maximum sustained wind speed reported for the day = 10.10 mph
Rain occurred during this 24 hr. period.
No Snow, Hail, Thunder, Tornado, or Fog

So, it looks like there was some rain showers (So, what’s new for the Wet … er I mean West side of WA?), ground level visibility was good enough and it got down to around 40°F the next morning. There is a good chance he (or his dead body) got rained on.

I don’t know about everybody else, but I don’t see these conditions as life threatening, unless he was injured and could not keep moving.

Did they have “space-blankets” in 1971?
You could put one of them in … oh… ah… maybe a small paper bag?

Cheers,

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

pchapman,

"Unless Cossey had poor rigging skills at the time, he would have expected the rigs to be functional."

I thought the same thing. If Cossey packed a container that couldn't be opened reasonably, then what's that say about his rigging skills?

The best Cossey interview I've heard was in 1979 for In Search Of. It was done just months before they found the money. You can find this interview by visiting the following YouTube video and scrolling to 5:37-6:45 of the clip.

Cossey

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

you've probably already read this but i found it interesting and just in case you hadnt read it here it is.

i also think that it has an accurate description of the new "evidence" and how it was found.

Humph. They skipped posting Carr's interview for March 26 on Roe Conn's WLS(AM)! Went from March 25 to March 27. What's up with that?!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[low_pull1 2]

......
Him allegedly describing how hang gliders steer.
........................
i got the impression that he knew about paragliding (groundlaunching)

[low_pull1 2]

................................
Other than that, 377 would you like to tackle the "estate" question?
.................................
im thinking this can be solved ...then find out what happened to the original owner and possibly the cash.

........................
dumstuntzz,
Is there any type of 28 round that would have worked with an NB6? Could the container have been altered, or the material of the round be different?
.........................
im thinking the canopy found can be traced to a manufacturer and rigger??? did this canopy come from the same source as the ones cooper used??

[low_pull1 2]

.......
I want to go on record as saying; “I don’t think the weather that night was nearly as bad as everyone is making it out to be”. It wasn’t exactly “swimming weather” but it wasn’t “the storm of the century” either.
...................

as a backpacker....i do know that freezing temperatures and wetness of the body can kill you.

furthermore, previously i indicated that its possible to stay warm sleeping in a dry canopy below freezing...but did not conclude that a wet canopy would keep one alive all night at freezing temperatures.

just my 2 cents.

edited to add that i see the temperatures were around 40F at night

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

The best Cossey interview I've heard was in 1979 for In Search Of. It was done just months before they found the money. You can find this interview by visiting the following YouTube video and scrolling to 5:37-6:45 of the clip.

Cossey

Interesting. Thanks for posting that.

Himmelsbach was interviewed in 1988 by Lifetime. In this interview he specifies "Two front pack and Two back pack parachutes" were the demand from Cooper. Scroll to about 3:30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWxVWsrRvLQ&feature=related

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

paragliding? You might be correct. I wouldn't know...

Due to some people not having the ability to view YouTube stuff, I transcribed the interview:

"The type of parachute that DB Cooper used was a 28 foot parachute in a military type container, and this type of container and harness would be very difficult as far as finding the ripcord goes. In selecting this type of parachute, it would seem that he had some military background. He would encounter numerous problems. Number one as he exited the airplane he's likely to go unstable which would also cause him some problems in reaching, locating, and finding his ripcord aside from the fact that it was night. Since it was rainy and windy, if he got the parachute open, then the problems of his landing would come up. I'm just sure if he pulled the ripcord he made it."

- Earl Cossey 1979

No mention of "oops... I sorta put an oversized canopy in the container and never made sure it worked okay"... this is why I'm asking those who would know to chime in with their expert opinion.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

cossey supposedly says it was a 28ft canopy in the nb6 container. as a rigger w/ over 40 yrs experience in the field, i know that such a combination would have created a VERY hard pull(possibly even a no pull).

Yet the rigs were presumably already in service?

I.e., even if "very tight", they were already packed up and someone was expected to wear them. Unless Cossey had poor rigging skills at the time, he would have expected the rigs to be functional.

Presumably, if they had no front mount D rings sewn on, they would have been used as pilot rigs by the DZ?

There is still a lot that seems not to be known about the choice of rigs & canopies.

The rigs (packed back containers with harnesses) might not have been in service at the time.
See: http://www.aero.com/publications/parachutes/9602/pc0296.htm. What was written there could be completely wrong though (big surprise).

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Quote

(Mr. Cossey said) "....a 28 foot parachute in a military type container,... In selecting this type of parachute, it would seem that he had some military background."

Nice... It was Mr. Cossey himself who selected the equipment. No offense intended, but gimme a break.

I'm no expert, but it's interesting that the packed nb's came from Cossey's rigging loft. It implies that there weren't any suitable rigs at the DZ that could just be plucked off a shelf. I wonder if whatever rigs they might normally have on hand during the summer season were all deployed and hanging in the loft for the winter, during which repairs and inspections would be done. Regarding the 28' in the wrong container, perhaps Cossey was experimenting with ways to reduce the force required for deployment, and it was one of only two "ready" rigs he had. Until shown otherwise, I'm not going to assume that Cossey was putting students, or anyone else, up in those rigs. Anyway, just a couple thoughts.

-----

Regarding the jump as it relates to experience/weather, etc., military pilots are expected, and prepared, to eject from an airplane at any time, no matter what the terrain and weather are like. Of course they have decent boots, a fairly rugged flight suit, and a helmet, but just like Cooper, they have no skydiving experience. The vast majority survive the canopy ride and landing.

I'm not trying to say that it's a given that Cooper lived, but that he very well could have lived. Then there's the money that flew/floated 20+ miles....

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Orange1 0]

Quote

......
Him allegedly describing how hang gliders steer.
........................
i got the impression that he knew about paragliding (groundlaunching)

I don't think there was any paragliding in those days. AFAIK that sport started when people started using square parachutes to launch off mountains with - i have never heard of any paragliding under rounds, ever. (So he may have known about paragliding, but that would have years later?)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 3]

Quote

Regarding the jump as it relates to experience/weather, etc., military pilots are expected, and prepared, to eject from an airplane at any time, no matter what the terrain and weather are like.

Well of course they have to be ready to eject at any time. When you have bullets and missiles hitting your aircraft and tearing wings off it's not like there's a whole lot of other options available. I'm pretty certain that most even understand they probably are going to be hurt by the ejection even under good conditions, but it's a hell of a lot better than being part of the smoking hole in the ground.

Remember, possible and probable are two completely different things.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Skyjack should answer the question of when.

I thought I read somewhere that it happened in Colorado. Weber suddenly left Colorado shortly after the ransom money was discovered. Therefore, the hang gliding comments would have been between 77-80. Does that fit paragliding? They had squares by then, but does CO even have the terrain for adequate paragliding?

[1969912 0]

Absolutely. Die, or most likely live. I didn't want to get into what a criminal might be thinking, but they often do some pretty dangerous things while committing crimes. Car chases, shootouts.... Might be a combination of things behind it, but self destrucive behavior is fairly common among criminals. In addition to that, if Cooper had little knowledge and no jump experience (which seems likely), he probably didn't know what he was getting himself into. But with a bit of luck, it was survivable, as long as he got the canopy out.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG