Bolas 5 #126 April 19, 2011 Has the skydiving community as a whole ever been able to eliminate or minimize a safety issue, or has it always been technology advances? Were it not for AADs, no pull/low pull could very likely still be common.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #127 April 19, 2011 QuoteHas the skydiving community as a whole ever been able to eliminate or minimize a safety issue, or has it always been technology advances? Were it not for AADs, no pull/low pull could very likely still be common. Witnessing fatalities and training seem to have had an affect on our policies over the years. At least in all aspects of the sport except swooping and carving turns in the pattern. I remember watching what happened to the way jump pilots take off after the Otter crash at Perris. You never ever saw high speed pull out type rotations after that one. It only took one crash to fix that problem. You see if the pilot had rotated on the numbers, and feathered the proper engine, more people might have survived the incident. But like I said, it only took one crash to change the way pilots at Perris are trained. Why is it taking all these years and fatalities to change this problem?Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #128 April 19, 2011 Quote Quote Has the skydiving community as a whole ever been able to eliminate or minimize a safety issue, or has it always been technology advances? Were it not for AADs, no pull/low pull could very likely still be common. Witnessing fatalities and training seem to have had an affect on our policies over the years. At least in all aspects of the sport except swooping and carving turns in the pattern. I remember watching what happened to the way jump pilots take off after the Otter crash at Perris. You never ever saw high speed pull out type rotations after that one. It only took one crash to fix that problem. You see if the pilot had rotated on the numbers, and feathered the proper engine, more people might have survived the incident. But like I said, it only took one crash to change the way pilots at Perris are trained. Why is it taking all these years and fatalities to change this problem? Jumpers started wearing seatbelts too... I don't think jump pilots are really relevant to the question as while they are a part of the skydiving community, they differ in that to do any sort of non fixed object jumps all jump disciplines rely on them. There are far fewer diver drivers than there are jumpers. Plus that whole directly regulated by the FAA thing... My point is when it comes to skydivers, rules generally don't work and even moreso rules from higher up. What does work is technology and education for all, and if needed, attitude adjustments. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #129 April 19, 2011 QuoteWhat does work is technology and education for all, and if needed, attitude adjustments. Agreed....Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #130 April 19, 2011 Low pulls finally became uncool. They were against the BSRs in the 70's, but still a lot more common than they are now. But it takes becoming uncool, which means that the majority of jumpers have to participate. Instead of saying "badass" when someone has a monster swoop just outside the beer line, the reaction has to be "what a fucking moron" and it has to be general. After all, I still see people doing wheelies on motorcycles on the freeway sometimes, too. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #131 April 19, 2011 QuoteLow pulls finally became uncool. They were against the BSRs in the 70's, but still a lot more common than they are now. Did they really become widely uncool or did AAD two outs and the cost/danger associated with those do it more?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #132 April 19, 2011 Even by the mid-80's (when I was becoming inactive) they weren't as cool. I wasn't actively jumping when the Cypres came out. Or maybe the cool folks never jumped around me Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #133 April 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteLow pulls finally became uncool. They were against the BSRs in the 70's, but still a lot more common than they are now. Did they really become widely uncool or did AAD two outs and the cost/danger associated with those do it more? Became un-cool... Intentional low pullers didn't USE an AAD, the slow-hand thing went out of fashion because like Wendy said...the you're an idiot factor went mainstream. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJack 1 #134 April 19, 2011 Quote Like the poster above said...nothing has changed. One thing has been changing. Back in the day, when we did something stupid we normally just killed ourselves. Now lately when we do something stupid we are often taking someone with us. I’m really disgusted with the direction this sport has taken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #135 April 20, 2011 QuoteI’m really disgusted with the direction this sport has taken. Jack, sadly I couldn’t agree with you more. These statements were made over 25 years ago and are as valid today as they were when first spoken. Sparky “We have created an environment in skydiving where the gear is so good that the people using it don’t have to be.” Dan Poynter “The safer skydiving gear becomes the more chances skydivers will take in order to keep the fatality rate constant.” Booth’s Law #2My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #136 April 20, 2011 Quote Quote Read this! 3 years later and nothing has changed Now you're catching on kid...As sad and tragic as the events of the past few weeks have been, it's the same old story...only the names have have changed. If skydiving is truly a 'family' then what you're seeing is a modification of the stages of grief...when acceptance finally comes, things will go back to status quo. I read the demands for change and the ideas spit-balled ad nauseum in the other threads...it's meaningless. I've seen the barrel turn so many times I can't count it anymore. Not until either our governing organization, or the big brother above it steps up and says definitively...do it 'this' way or don't do it at all, will any true resolution to this problem be realized. A few folks went in fighting Blast Handles...they're gone. A couple people slipped through the hole...Y mod. 75% of the fatalities the past few years were after the canopy was open and flying...I guess it needs to be 90% or better before some real action is taken. History seems to show nothing will change, until the gear undergoes some modification to prevent the human element from using it wrong...is THAT where we're at...REALLY?! Booths Law it seems, isn't just a 'theory' What you mean " Kid" I did my first jump in 74. I believe that beats you. Anyway less of the point scoring. Those killing themselves are the current version of those who, in our time, had low pull contests. A very long time ago a friend of mine called Base " Suicide for cowards" Now swooping could well be called the same. Taking out and killing someone else could be called " Murder for Cowards" and the people that make and sell these LETHAL canopies could well be called " Accessories before the fact of suicide or murder" A lovely quote from the book Flight of the Intruder. " If you kill me I'll kick your arse (I'm english) in hell for a thousand years" Prove me wrong gang, fix this ...I dare ya! ~grumpy old fart rant over~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #137 April 20, 2011 What you mean " Kid" I did my first jump in 74. I believe that beats you. Quote Term of endearment not disrespect...besides ~It's not the years it's the miles... ~ I'd bet you LOOK a lot younger than me!! And yeah I was one of those slow-hand low pull guys...it truly was 'peer pressure' that ended a lot of that insanity. ~but I don't know if that route would work in 'this' day. You might see a few guys hum it down during the day back then but it wasn't 1/2 of the load every load...these days it seem the conservative canopy pilots are outnumbered. Sometimes sanity at landing seems the exception not the rule. I would have thought that when Roger was killed some kind of careful examination and new policy would become the standard. The loss of a guy like him, that changed the sport in more ways than most could ever conceive...who was skillful, conservative etc. ~and nothing was done. Or Bob who was in the same class in many ways as Roger...also taken out from behind. ~lots of talk, no real action. That's why I have to wonder if anything 'now' will change once some time has passed...there is a lot of fervor going on right now, and with the recent statement by Jay and the USPA maybe finally we WILL take a hard look and make the changes needed...MAYBE. I'm hopeful but not confident. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
