base570 1 #1 February 21, 2005 article http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=757&e=10&u=/ap/20050221/ap_on_re_us/old_jumper Peace, jason 570 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #2 February 22, 2005 Every time this comes up I'd always got in trouble with the DZO because I'd sit them down (the oldie who wants to jump) and talk them out of it. This fellow's shoulder (in the above story) is never going to heal. I learned this lesson years ago with an 85 year old who showed up at Elsinore with the following story. (They all have a story). As a young man he's part of B-17 crew making bombing runs over Germany. His A/C is hit by withering flack and the skipper radioed everyone to prepare to bail out. He told me there was no way he could bring himself to jump and he decided to go down with the plane. At the last moment the skipper said to hold on as he thought they might make it back. And they did, all the way to England. He told me the fact he couldn't jump was something that haunted him all his life. He was here now to exercise that demon. My DZO at the time was beside herself with the publicity angle and I went along with it even though the alarm bells are clanging in my head. The number one responsibility of a skydiving instructor is student safety. It's not to make everyone happy. Well, I put him out on a static line jump with the biggest square canopy we had and he did pretty much everything right. On landing his 85 year old bones just went snap. I'll never forgive myself for that, and vowed I'd never do it again. Later, when presented with people of that age, who didn't want to go tandem, I always find the following usually works. I ask them to tell me about themselves and then say they've already lived a good and full life. Then I ask, "Do you know what's really up there in the sky? When they admit they didn't, I say, "Look, I've done this a lot and here's what's up there, absolutely nothing . . ." Of course, in general there are some oldies capable of jumping solo, but not many. Think of putting a 90 year old person out the same way you'd think of putting a ten year old out. If you don't, you aren't doing your job. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #3 February 22, 2005 Quote If you don't, you aren't doing your job. *** Amen Brother! There use to be this 75 year old guy that would come out every couple of months to a DZ I worked at...had his own Jumbo PC... he would make a static line jump or two, do a nice PLF, buy some beer...and come back a couple months later to do it all again. The 'powers that be' talked him into a square jump...I think somebody really wanted him to BUY some gear through the DZ. I fought the idea but probably not strong enough...he hooked the square just like he always did the PC... Broke both legs and his hips... NEVER WALKED AGAIN! Still haunts me too! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #4 February 22, 2005 Thanks Jimbo, that's exactly what I mean. We keep having to learn the same lessons over and over at the expense of our students . . . because new Instructors think they are the bomb, but the bomb goes off in some innocent's lap. Learn your lessons from us and not your current students. The new USPA way of becoming an "I" is totally flawed and devoid of the peer way it used to be. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #5 February 22, 2005 In my first jump course, back in 1972, there was an old guy signed up. He was only about 60 or so, but he had no buisness skydiving. I mean it was a pretty rough sport back in those days. He had a young wife and a whole passel of kids. We all admired this gutsy old fart, but he should have chosen another sport. Anyhow he shattered his leg under a 28 ft. round canopy. He worked as a welder and was off work for months. I'll bet his family had a tough time of it too. I later worked at a job with this guy. You could tell he wanted to jump again, but I think he learned his lesson. He shouldn't have let his courage outweigh good sense. But then again if we all played it safe none of us would probably be jumping today....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 February 22, 2005 QuoteThanks Jimbo, that's exactly what I mean. We keep having to learn the same lessons over and over at the expense of our students . . . because new Instructors think they are the bomb, but the bomb goes off in some innocent's lap. Learn your lessons from us and not your current students. The new USPA way of becoming an "I" is totally flawed and devoid of the peer way it used to be. NickD BASE 194 Its not just instructors. Every generation of new jumpers, every 15 to 18 years or so, have to re-learn all the lessons that the last generation already discovered. They view the last generation as used up burnouts that refuse to try "new" things. So they re-invent the wheel, kill off a bunch and cripple some more. 15 to 18 years latter, they find themselves trying rein in the latest flock of know-it-all's. And the beat goes on. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #7 February 22, 2005 I find it difficult to deny an adult, who is fully informed of the possible, even likely, consequences, the opportunity to skydive. I also fully support any instructor who refuses to participate. Remember, there are plenty of people out there who will tell YOU that you should not jump, it is too much risk to you, and your loved ones. At what percent risk do you say no? 5%, 25%...? Do you base your refusal on whether they are married, or have kids? -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #8 February 22, 2005 Quote I find it difficult to deny an adult, who is fully informed of the possible, even likely, consequences, the opportunity to skydive Do you base your refusal on whether they are married, or have kids? Quote What is 'fully informed?' Do they really grasp the whole picture? I encourage people to do a little cost~benefit analysis.... What do they hope to gain...and is it really worth what they're risking?! Old folks break easier and they don't heal as fast or sometimes at all... They need to be made brutally aware that there ARE risks of injury...or worse. There are limitations...for all of us! A 70 year old FJS may well be fully qualified in every aspect...but STILL may want to give a little extra thought. Even a sprained knee isn't the same to him as to a 21 year old. Quote there are plenty of people out there who will tell YOU that you should not jump, it is too much risk to you, and your loved ones. At what percent risk do you say no? 5%, 25%...? Quote On a personal note... Motorcycle crash put 2 rods & 6 screws in my lower back... No more bikes...I'm an "E" short of a base number that I'll never get. No more Tandems...No 'Hot-Rod' canopies... To much risk of long term INJURY. When we adopted our kids ~ Wife decided to stop flying aerobatics and doing air shows...we've seen to many 'great' pilots & good friends die or be injured. We reviewed Limitations...Costs & Benefits, adjustments were made accordingly. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #9 February 22, 2005 There's no doubt about it, you definitely do get wiser with age. When I look back at all the foolhardy, crazy stuff I did in my youth, I have to shake my head. I'm definitely lucky to still be here. Experienced Instructors probably become aware of this when working with younger students....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #10 February 22, 2005 Quote Experienced Instructors probably become aware of this when working with younger students....Steve1 Quote Yup...! But it kind of goes back to what Sparky said about re learning lessons. And what Nick said about the certifications being less that ideal. I was listening to Glen Bangs discussing the Instructor programs last year and he brought up some points I hadn't considered. Mainly that the retention rate of 'quality' Instructors is at an all time low... A lot of factors play into it, Time..Money..Politics... but the bottom line is, not as many "I's" continue to teach as long as they use to. To 'pass on' the knowledge they've gained from years of teaching. The 'older & wiser' guys are fewer and farther between the younger 'professional' Instructors slinging meat for profit. Who too, will eventually burn out and move on. One example: A friend in his 30's just completed an AFF program at a popular So.Cal. DZ... He was shocked at the bickering his "I's" were doing in front of him...the inconsistent gear checks throughout the program...the lack of answers to his questions... He felt he was just 'another $' and his personal motivation alone is what kept him in the sport thus far. Not pointing fingers...I did it too! And I too quit as I got 'older' and burned out. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bouda 0 #11 February 22, 2005 no video on it i saw part of it on the news Look what i made at work today mom!! Put it on the fridge http://www.bouda.moonfruit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #12 February 23, 2005 Quote...He told me the fact he couldn't jump was something that haunted him all his life. He was here now to exercise that demon....On landing his 85 year old bones just went snap. Was the jump worth the price, to him?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #13 February 23, 2005 >>Was the jump worth the price, to him?<< I see where you going, Tom, but I know no jump, for whatever reason, is worth a plaster agony. Especially at his age. Naturally, I didn't have that conversation with him. But, if he's human like the rest of us, he came to that conclusion eventually. If not, I would tell him his manhood was already proven the day he climbed into that B-17 . . . He came to me because I was a pro, and I failed him . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #14 February 23, 2005 I used to absolutely love "slinging meat" as you so aptly put it. In the mid to late 70's I had a rural DZ in Southern GA and we would fly about 15-30 loads per wknd. I loved the packing, the jumpmastering, the mentoring, the idea of turning others onto what I considered the most exilerating sport on the planet. What I didn't like getting good at, and I had to get good at it, was picking up the broken students. I felt bad, just plain bad. How could this happen? Why, with no rhyme or reason, would a student get hurt at no fault of their own? I moved to Deland and was fortunate enough to participate in the earliest test jumps of Tandem a few years after witnessing Bob Favreau take his son and Mike Barbour take Kirk Morrison on probably the first tandems. Man, did it feel good to be able to take students up with so many of the usual risks mitigated to the point of non-existance. (Until the first tandem fatalities but that is divergent from the thread.) I felt that I had redeemed myself for all those injured students by helping develop the system and using it to turn more on. The DZO took responsability for the "tricky" pax. The paralytics, octogenerians, oversized and blind were all his and he was welcome to them. But they got hurt from time ot time and it bothered me. I have a lot of respect for the prospective students that took my advice when I told them that if they didn't REALLY want to be there then it would be best for all of us if they just watched. It wasn't just them I was thinking about. jon ramble, ramble Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #15 February 23, 2005 And the pounding of students just goes on and on . . . Don't you realize we aren’t the same people that log in here with all their happy talk about their first new rig and all its pretty colors. Being a skydiving instructor is one of the most important things you can ever do, please get hip to it . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #16 February 24, 2005 Back in the 70's it wasn't unusual to have over 20 students in a first jump class. Back then you paid $50. for the course, and this included all your training and your first static line jump. Jumps after that were about $5.00 until you got into freefall. Experienced jumpers paid $3.50 per jump. At any rate it wasn't unusual to have a couple broken legs in a class this size. In almost every class this happened, and this didn't include sprained ankles. On one of the larger classes I taught the P.L. F. part of the course. No, I've never had an instructor rating. In fact, I only had about 40 skydives at the time (which was a fair number for that time period), but I also had about 25 army jumps. If I knew nothing else, I knew how to do a good P.L.F. Many of the less experienced jumpers in our club helped out with part of the training (which may not have been a good idea). It was a great feeling thoughto see the entire class make their first one, without a single injury. I felt like I had really accomplished something good. I imagine it could also have been a real bummer if someone was busted up on landing. It's easy to put a guilt trip on yourself, and it's easy to beat yourself up when something terrible goes wrong. The old guy, making this jump, knew the risks. Maybe it was worth it to him to make that jump even though he was hurt. If he only broke one leg at that age, maybe he didn't do so bad after all....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
