Is my first canopy too aggressive?

[Sinkster 0]

Hey all. As you might know, I got my first rig a few weeks ago and have been jumping it for about 3 weekends (I have 25 jumps now the last 7 on the Sabre). The main is a Sabre 170 and I weigh 185-190 so the wingloading is somewhere between 1.18 - 1.26 depending on the weight of the container.
Anyways, the first few landings were great and I stood them up but on that day the winds were something like a constant 10-14. Then, the next weekend the winds were almost non-existent and I consistently flared too high and had a couple of hard PLF landings, but one turf surf at the end which was great but scary because now I feel like the most dangerous part of the the skydive is by far the landing and I probably just got lucky on that landing because I was just flaring on instinct at the last minute without 2-stages on that one.
Finally, last weekend I got one jump in and came in again with a slightly too high flare (about 2 feet) and landed hard forcing me on my knees but no harm except tingling ankles.
I am young and have strong ankles, etc. but I am beginning to think that perhaps this canopy is too much for me at this point. The only problem is that I bought it because it was the only thing I could get in a used container at a price I could afford within reason that was offered to me. I trust the guy who sold it to me and he watched some of my landings under a 190 F111 (forgot what) and figured I could do it.
Still, I never received any instruction except "use a 2-stage flare" and I still consistently flare a tad too high OR just too much too fast which I think is probably the case.
Anyways, I am still going to keep jumping it because not jumping is not an option and I think if I continue to be careful I will probably be fine, but I am wondering if anyone has any comments on this.
You think my bag of experience will fill up before my bag of luck runs out? I sure hope so.
As far as the two-stage flare is it still initiated at 15 or so feet like a "normal" flare? I think because my risers are so long by the time I get half-way most the flare is gone so this complicates things and may actually be why I am having such bad landings. In fact, I swear I can distinctly remember having the toggles halfway at about 5 feet and then all the way at about 3 then surfing about 2 feet above ground before subsequently dropping hard.
Anyone have any tips besides just keep jumping and practicing and tweaking it out(which I plan to do)?
I know this is pretty dumb, but I had to ask instead of just hushing up about it and hoping for the best (and hoping people don't notice that guy always coming in with a *grunt* on the landings resulting in a dirty rig and jumpsuit each time.) Thanks.

[geanky 0]

Hey man every landing is going to be different, so start playing with your canopy and get to know it. I would recommend a couple of hop and pops from altitude so that you have time to play with your canopy. A couple of things that you can do are front riser / rear riser and toggle turns to see how your canopy reacts. Also try a couple of times to find the stall point of your canopy and practice your landing sequence. These exercises will make you feel more comfortable with your canopy and you will be a safer canopy pilot.
Another thing that I find important is to remember that what you have above you is a wing and that you always have to be flying it. This is especially critical when you are coming in for landings. I say this because a lot of canopy pilots that I see out in the field try to anticipate their landing by either just looking down and not having good altitude awareness those last 5 feet and also by trying to reach for the ground before they have actually touched down. You have to remember that you have to fly your canopy so that you can set it down safely and not that you canopy is going to set you down.
Lastly, get used to your canopy and learn to feel how it flies. This is going to take a while but it will eventually lead you in the right path of canopy control. This "fly by feel" will help you in landing your canopy in any type of wind conditions and will make your transitions from different canopies a more safe and enjoyable experience.
Remember play with your canopy up high and learn to feel how it flies. Also try to see if someone can video your landings so that you can see what you can improve on.
Take care and keep it safe.

[quade 3]

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You think my bag of experience will fill up before my bag of luck runs out? I sure hope so.

There is another alternative -- you could get some additional canopy instruction. If you have the cash you might want to talk to the guys over at the Perris Evolution Canopy Flight School. I'd definately rather give these guys some cash than the ER. quade
http://futurecam.com

[bhale 0]

I think, for the number of jumps of you have, it is too small.
I would recommend a wingloading of 1/1, if that.
Make some jumps on a larger canopy, learn to fly it in ALL conditions, until every landing is a standup, then move down.
Don't be in a hurry to wreck the ankles. You have the rest of your jumping career, take it slow.
Have fun, be safe.

[rhino 0]

Sinkster,
Sounds like you might be a bit over your head.
Spend allot of time up high flaring.. And I mean slow, staged flares..
From now on think of your flare in stages..
1- you are coming in on final at about 10 feet or so, GO 1/4 breaks. Just touch them to get around THE CORNER so to speak.
NOW YOU ARE IN LEVEL FLIGHT
2- As you begin to sink in start applying more breaks SMOOTHLY until you have lost all your airspeed and finished the flair.
You should be able to stop that canopy completely with no problems.
Play up high and get comfortable with the timing. Get comfortable with the speed. Find the rock point of the canopy and STUDY the low speed flight characteristics big time.. That way you know when you are in your flare that your canopy has more bottom end left..
You can get it.. Just be carefull and plan..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[prost 0]

Where do you jump?
William

[skybytch 259]

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now I feel like the most dangerous part of the the skydive is by far the landing...
[snip] I never received any instruction except "use a 2-stage flare" and I still consistently flare a tad too
high OR just too much too fast which I think is probably the case.

Based on those two statements... Yes, I think your loading is too aggressive for your current ability/experience.

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I am still going to keep jumping it because not jumping is not an option and I think if I continue to
be careful I will probably be fine, but I am wondering if anyone has any comments on this.

Since you asked... my comment would have to be get a bigger main, get some real canopy control training and do 100+ jumps more on something 20-40 sq.ft. bigger before flying the 170 again. If not jumping is not an option.... how are you going to handle being grounded if you get hurt under it? You probably will be "fine" if you are "careful" - but shit happens. If you're going to continue jumping that canopy regardless... you need to accept the fact that if/when shit happens to you, you may not walk away from the landing.
pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[Sinkster 0]

Hey all.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate everyone's thoughtful posts on this matter.
It is definately correct that I need to take this seriously and really focus on learning the flight characteristics and handling of the canopy. It is also correct that I honestly should be on a main at least 20 sq ft larger. I think I would feel comfortable on a 190 at least I was comfortable when it was F-111.
Honestly, that is what I already figured, but hated to act on because of the investment in my gear. Anything larger will probably not fit in my container and I bought the only thing available that looked sufficient that I could find used within my price range yadda yadda yadaa. Yet, it would be remarkably foolish to get injured over something as preventable as maintaining the proper canopy/wingloading per experience/skill level.
Thus, the only two options are to either (1) augment my skill and experience, or (2) to simply move up to a larger or more forgiving canopy.
(1) is the option that I am currently trying to fulfill. Obviously, the problem with this one is that it could end up teaching me a lesson that I don't want to go through.
(2) is the best option if not considering what I would have to do to make this happen.
With these two options and all the previous postings in mind, I am going to fulfill the following course of action:
I will make 3 more jumps concentrating on really nailing the control, flaring, and landing. If problems still continue then I will simply be forced to keep jumping and pray that I don't get injured. Yes, I thought I was going to say I would just jump a rental 190 F111 but then I realized that I would rather take my chances on my gear than jump the ratty, FXC equipped, improper closing loop lengthed (due to throw-out to rip cord conversions without changing closing loop size which is not supposed to happen but I suspect does sometimes), with hundreds of jumps on the canopy, etc.
I know that makes my home dz sound bad, but I am a picky person and had to suck it in during student status to skydive even though I felt some things could have been better. I just accepted that the risk was worth it to me and hurried to get my own gear. lol
So thanks for listening and sorry if these posts have seemed a waste of time since I was just going to be stubborn anyway and maybe only posted to rant and see if I could get anyone to say that "yes, u can do it don't worry". I don't know.
In any case, I will now jump with more resolve to make it unscathed through this dangerous time. My own safety is my responsibility, and if I don't feel like I should be doing something even if someone else that is experienced says I can, it would be better not to even if only for psychological reasons. But I feel that I can do this just like I learned about all the other aspects of skydiving, and I will. At least now, if I break something it can be said that someone warned me.

• Quote

[drenaline 0]

Hey I know what you feel, it happened to me and is still happening, I changed from a PD 230 to a Spectre 150, now with a wingload of 1.15:1 without the weights. I kept misjudging the flare and landed without a flare or flared once I was on the ground, cause I have no money to buy a new chute am stock with it and had to learn how to use it.
The only thing that has helped me is practicing my flare when I open (between 2k and 3k) on each jump, and to see how is the flare for the jump, that helps alot. Remember know your canopy.
For the ankle, use ice or cold compress, it helps reduce the pain. For the butt (3 months ago landed on my butt on hard ground and it still hurts) take medicine.
Good luck and Blue Skies!
"Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"
drenaline

[billvon 2,396]

>Thus, the only two options are to either (1) augment my skill and experience, or
> (2) to simply move up to a larger or more forgiving canopy.
The two are interrelated. If you spend the next 50 jumps just flaring and praying, and are careful to never do anything risky under your too-small canopy, you will never learn to fly your canopy. There are a great many people in this sport who never really learn to fly their canopy - they simply pull both toggles down at X feet and essentially close their eyes until their feet touch the ground. (No, they don't actually close their eyes, but since they finish flying after the flare they might as well.) This actually works 9 times out of 10. But on that 10th time, when the winds gust a bit, or you have to turn a little low, or someone gets close to you, you will need skills you never had a chance to learn because you were "being careful."
I would suggest that you either get some training, fast (and I mean like next weekend) with a canopy school that a) has someone who can watch you land and b) has some rental canopies that you can use for training - or upsize your canopy.
>I will make 3 more jumps concentrating on really nailing the control, flaring, and
> landing.
Again, as I mentioned above, that may teach you to flare at the right altitude, but will not teach you how to control your canopy. You have to be able to turn in the flare, flat turn at 50 feet, land on slopes, land crosswind, in no wind, etc. If your current canopy is too small to let you feel comfortable doing all that I think it's important to upsize until you _do_ learn to do that.
>If problems still continue then I will simply be forced to keep jumping and
>pray that I don't get injured.
A 2 week wait for a demo canopy might be preferable to a 6 month wait for your legs to heal. Take it from someone whose canopy put them in a wheelchair for a month - it's not worth it.
-bill von

[quade 3]

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So thanks for listening and sorry if these posts have seemed a waste of time since I was just going to be stubborn anyway and maybe only posted to rant and see if I could get anyone to say that "yes, u can do it don't worry".

Have you ever noticed that when somebody asks for advice, this is usually the situation? I'm not talking about just skydiving either.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[skybytch 259]

>Take it from someone whose canopy put them in a wheelchair for a month - it's not worth it.
Or take it from someone who put 60 jumps on a canopy (that by sheer jump numbers I should have been "ready" for), insisting that I'd get it figured out on the next jump or two, before all those bad landings put me off work and into the operating room for back surgery. A year and a half on the ground because I was too stubborn to a) realize that I really wasn't "ready" for that canopy and/or b) get some training on how to fly and land that canopy correctly. Like bill said... It's not worth it.
pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[Sinkster 0]

Alright, I will seek out training if there is anyone on the dz that can do it or I will try to get a demo canopy if a 190 will fit my container. The cypress on my rig is due for a 4 year check which will probably take a couple weeks so it will be a good excuse to wait for a demo.

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Again, as I mentioned above, that may teach you to flare at the right altitude, but will not teach you how to control your canopy. You have to be able to turn in the flare, flat turn at 50 feet, land on slopes, land crosswind, in no wind, etc. If your current canopy is too small to let you feel comfortable doing all that I think it's important to upsize until you _do_ learn to do that.

Good grief! I had no idea that I should be able to confidently do all of those things. I am actually somewhat angry now for being put out on a too small canopy with no training. Of course, I am a fast learner and graduated AFF in 6 jumps (almost a weekend) with the 1st being my 1st jump ever so maybe they figured I would pick it up like everything else. Once I asked about flat turns and they said just to not worry about it that I didn't need to know yet. I realize it is still my responsibility though so like I said I am going to find someone to help me even if I have to pay for coaching!!!!! (especially pay--since then I should be getting good instruction or I hope so)
Thanks again for the excellent advice. I am going to destroy this threat before it destroys me!
-Sinkster

[weber 0]

I had a similar problem for about 10-15 jumps and then it started to fix itself. I had about the same wingloading on a 210 hornet. I figured I probably wasn't gonna get hurt too bad since I felt real comfortable doing PLFS. It just came naturrally after a while. Just be sure to flare a bunch up when you have altitude. I do remember thinking the same thing about worring about the landings...Now I jump a vengeance 150 and love it!

[carbonezone 0]

<<>>
You all really scare me. Some of the shit that comes out of your mouths....shhhhh what can I say!
I am in the wrong business. I should be standing in the landing area taken wagers on who of you all are gonna biff!
Bummer for you!!!
Signing off Sad,
Tami
Scotty -n- Tami

[rgoper 0]

all i have to add, to what you've already been advised by learned colleagues, is either stop jumping the 170, or jump rental gear until you're ready for the 170. if there is doubt in YOUR mind about ANY scenerio that you can't handle, address it immediately...please...don't be the next statistic. i've lost 2 friends this year alone, that i dearly miss, they were exrerienced canopy pilots. more and more sky divers are losing they're lives under a perfectly good canopy, role reversal from the early 70's. in the end, it's your life, and your gear, do the right thing, we can't afford to lose another "brother" be safe, take care. Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Skyrose7 0]

just a quick question, did you use transition gear a lot before using this? I had some trouble at first with landings on zp canopies, but practicing helps a lot. NOw, my question is--I have been taught that it is a 3 stage process and you begin your flare at 6ft--hit the first stage and let yourself watch the leveling off, then proceed with stage 2 and nail the ending. that it is a 3 stage process. ??
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.

[FallingMarc 0]

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maybe they figured I would pick it up like everything else. Once I asked about flat turns and they said just to not worry about it that I didn't need to know yet.

Did anybody else tense up and stifle a scream reading this? Nothing at all against you, Sinkster, but what kind of instructor would not answer a question like that? Learning to skydive and fly powered planes at the same time, I am very disturbed at the lack of canopy training in general. How can we send people off to solo a glider, fly a pattern in traffic, and land unassisted, without teaching them much more than "pull one down to turn, both down to land."? Sure, most people come away intact, but there's no reason to leave out basic knowledge of principles of flight and canopy flight in student training.
Sorry, this has just become one of my very few hot buttons.
Marc
P.S. ...and don't even bring up the letter in the May(I think) Parachutist that said "Bernoulli's Law doesn't actually happen, wings are curved to look pretty, and we just fly like paper airplanes...." We are all forced by the nature of our sport to be glider pilots; can't we train appropriately?

[Iflyme 0]

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I have 25 jumps now the last 7 on the Sabre). The main is a Sabre 170 and I weigh 185-190 so the wingloading is somewhere between 1.18 - 1.26 depending on the weight of the container.

Quite frankly, I think you need to upsize for a while. Like some others said, you'll "probably" will be fine, but if you find yourself in trouble one day --- hmmmm. I've got over 150 jumps, and I'm jumping a 210 Silhouette loaded @ 1:1 ... better safe than sorry!
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[amir1967 0]

I can only tell you what I did.
ask one or two jumpmaster,instructor that you trust at you'r dropzone and listen only to what they said, the rest of us just don't know you at all , I can tell you to go with specter tri or omega all in the 190, 210 or so but the only people which twisted enkels and knee where I jump were jumping thoes canopy.
I'm nothing special in canopy control so when I wanted to get my own canopy I ask to of my Instactors for their opinion on that and got the green light to go ahead with it
my 0.02 Euro cent
AM67

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sink-
What has been your canopy progession (the canopies you have jumped, the number of jumps on each canopy and your performance under those canopies). What training canopy training have you recieved?
Hook

[rhino 0]

You felt comfortable doing a PLF???
What the hell?? This is not something you should be doing in place of a proper landing..
Not jumping on you but if anyone else in here thinks it's o.k. to keep jumping a canopy because they can plf just fine they need to pick another sport.
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[kwmontreal 0]

Hey,
First off let me chime in with Tamy .......... are some of you people just way out there!! 25 jumps and flying a zero-p 170 at a loading of approx. 1.25. On top of that poor canopy skills. Things that make you go Hmmmmm???
Hey Slink,
You need to find some more instruction from your local "concerned/professional" JM/Inst.. More over I would highly recommend you get the aformentioned instruction after finding yourself a larger canopy. There is far to much to learn and "LOTS" of time!! Front and rear riser work, stalls, flat turns,...........flairing. You want to know your canopy REALLY WELL!! You want to know what your canopy can do, and what you can do with your canopy. You want to be able to get yourself down safely in any situation (ie: bad spot with very few/tiny "outs") I transitioned from a Manta (288sq/ft), to a Sharp Shooter (240sq/ft), to a PD190, and this year to a Saber 170!! I didn't hit the Saber until approx. 160+ jumps. Even then I have had some advise/instruction on landing a zero-p canopy. It really is much different. Hope everything works out for you. My 0.02
Remember in this sport.........."Slow is Fast"!!
Jump Safe!!
Kent

[Sinkster 0]

*** What has been your canopy progession (the canopies you have jumped, the number of jumps on each canopy and your performance under those canopies). What training canopy training have you recieved? ***
Jumped some F-111 starting at 260 down to 190 in about 16 jumps. Then jumped the sabre 170. Have like 11 jumps on it now. Performance was basically I was able to stand up the landings consistently on everything else. The 190 was no problem.
As an update, some people helped me out this weekend and that including some advice from people here helped me have some great landings, I stood all of them up and have solved my problem of flaring too high. I am just going to keep being careful and make sure I keep improving and learning at a significant pace.

[prost 0]

That is the most important thing you can do.
William