Thom 0 #26 December 4, 2002 "Just to show you how much jumping has grown... For well over 10 years, from the early 60's till ram airs took over, everyone, and I mean everyone, jumped only one canopy... the Paracommander. I once asked Jacques Istel, who sold them all, exactly how many PC's were ever made, and he told me just over 10,000...that's it (and I owned 3 of them myself). Compare that to the nearly 100,000 ram airs PD alone has made, and you can see how many more of us there are nowadays. " Hi Bill Part of the issue here is that people had other and cheaper options then, something you don't have now. In that respect the free market has been a total failure. You had your surplus military stuff, dirt cheap of course, PC's, PAPS, Starlites, UT's, Thunderbows, Crossbows, Piglettes, single surface tri-angles like the Dactyles, Hawks, Eagles and Delta II's and Sierras. Since the PC was pretty dead by the mid-80's and you didn't have that many jumpers between 1964 and 1980 its amazing Jacques sold that many. Thom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #27 December 5, 2002 QuotePart of the issue here is that people had other and cheaper options then, something you don't have now. In that respect the free market has been a total failure. You had your surplus military stuff, dirt cheap of course, PC's, PAPS, Starlites, UT's, Thunderbows, Crossbows, Piglettes, single surface tri-angles like the Dactyles, Hawks, Eagles and Delta II's and Sierras. A lot of that stuff is still around, so it's still an alternative for you. What are you jumping these days? Please propose an alternative economic model that would get us the quality, reliability, and performance of the equipment we use today. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thom 0 #28 December 13, 2002 My current rig is a Guardian FOX (which is a civian Mach 12000 military rig) with a Laser-9 (9cell 292') main and Laser-250R. The main issue is that you have to buy a whole new rig to make any upgrades. In the Golden Days you could mix the most comfortable harness (my choice in the 70's for instance was the Cark Wolf Custom harness) and a container system. For conventional I had a pioneer 3-pin back and a Wolf Rip Off reserve and then I went to a Wolf Harness with a Thunder-Bow pig system (Thunderbows and 26' Security LoPo in both set ups). I personally prefer harnesses that have an adjustable main lift web but that's because I started with them in the 60's and I can adjust the thing to suit my shifting weight (a problem when you get in your 50's)plus I'm 6'2" tall and few rigs today are made for someone that tall. The question now remains is how does "The Market" assure that the best gear is available because right now I don't believe its working to give people the best options. If I bought a second rig or replaced this one I would have to get another FOX or the Strong Military Tandum rig, neither of which is common, inexpensive or easily available in fact the Fox may not be available at all. I do have the option of the Australian SAS rig which is made in new Zealand but I'm not even sure if civilians can get it. Cheers Thom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #29 December 13, 2002 If I remember right, all rigs had an adjustable main lift web back in the olden days. When I was military jumping I knew a couple big guys who would let the main lift web all the way out and were still extremely uncomfortable. One of them said that he hated military jumping for this reason alone. The harness was way too small for him. I knew several sport jumpers back in the 70's who jumped three pin pioneer rigs. I had a pioneer reserve and a super-pro harness and container. It had a split solid saddle and was quite comfortable for someone who's only 5' 8". I miss this gear for nostalgic reasons, but would hate to go back to jumping it all the time. I love my new Javelin and Hornet main. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #30 December 13, 2002 Quote The goal was to cutaway while bending at the waist ( reserve was on your belly so you wanted to open back to earth) My first mal was 22 years ago under a PC and because of my lack of experience and how scared I was, I fired the reserve when I was belly to earth. Thank god for cross connectors May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thom 0 #31 December 25, 2002 I also had the Pioneer 3-pin container on a Mini-system harness. Fit my Thunder-Bow quite well and I used it for years till I got the T-Bow pig with Wolf Custom harness. THOM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h2ou8n4 0 #32 February 5, 2003 Don't forget Pioneer's Russian Model PC; a 27 foot shortlined beast that landed like an anvil. In my estimation and experience, the old 24 foot Mark 1 was the best of the series. The Thunderbow superior? That's a laugh. It was an overweight joke copy of the german Hoffman triangle with a few derry slots cut in it. It went into richly deserved extinction almost immediately! In 71, general use squares were still 5 years away so the most gonzo canopy available was Snyder's deadly Delta II Parawing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickbrice 0 #33 February 13, 2003 On that note, I owned and operated a Delta II Parawing for a short while. It sure wasn't dull. When Frierson and Binniker got rid of theirs, I got rid of mine. I traded it for an old paracommander that looked like the inside of a planetarium every time I jumped it, and I was happy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #34 May 17, 2003 And Pioneer also made a Russian PC in two sizes, 21 and 23 ft. These were probably modeled after the Russian UT-15 canopies, though I imagine Pioneer probably incorporated some of their own PC ideas into them. If I remember right, the Russian PC's had two rather large drive slots at the back left and right sides and they were more rectangular than tear shaped. I owned one of the original 1964 R/W/B long line PC's and though it was 12 years old, it was my pride and joy. I usually had no problem with standups, just as long as it wasn't too windy. I never had to cut the thing away either, not once. But the PC was a pain in the ass to pack, it was easily the most compicated canopy ever made. All those sterring lines running up inside the canopy to reach the steering vents near the crown. Oy! Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #35 May 19, 2003 Wasn't there also a 27ft "Russian" PC by Poineer? I recall that I had one in the middle '70s Swanee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indigoSkye 0 #36 May 23, 2003 What about the Pappillon?? Those were faster and nicer than the PC.Perfect speed is being there at the goat roast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #37 May 23, 2003 the Para-Commander was a great chute. I have 2 or 3 of them, and although they were described as a "malfunction lookinmg for a place to happen" they usually worked very well. I had packed a 16mm movie camera inside mine, so when it opened there was the camera looking down at me from the apex. The 1st time, something got mixed up, I cutaway, and the PC drapped itself over the high tension wires. My 24 ft twill reserve got me down OK. Another malfunction in Ohio, dropped my PC into a swamp area. I offered $50.00 to anyone who culd find it, and the next time I went looking, I walked straight up to it. We were doing a demo at a Fair using the 28ft Lo-Po rounds. I had a PC but the two guys with the lo-pos left the aircraft on the spot and I styed in for a few seconds longer. The lo-pos dropped stright down, and I flew past them and landed right on target. They had a long walk back, and after getting home, they both ordered Para-Commanders before the day was over. One DZ " Safety Officer " recently tiold me that he wouldnt allow anyone to use a PC on that DZ. He didnt like the teffeta material. I explained it was only teffeta stablilzerpanels on the sides, and there was no reason to prohibit the use of a PC. Millions of jumps were put on PCs and I always used one for low opening jumps. I would field pack it for 24 hours before the jump, and just flake it out and pack it. I had two pilot chutes spring loaded, and would stand up when I dumped it. The rush of air over my back always took the 2 pilot chutes away and I opened with a thunderclap that always shocked the crowd. Lots of fun, I'll tell ya. Bill Cole D41 Canada Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonybrogdon 0 #38 August 5, 2003 just for the record, from someone with 100 paracomander jumps, the first paracomander was brought to the US from France from an orginal member of the US Army Golden Knights and someone I am proud to call a close friend, Jerry Bourquin. Blue SkiesTony Brogdon D-12855 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #39 August 5, 2003 Then I don't think it was a Paracommander, which was made in the US I think. It must have been a precursor to the Paracommander. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #40 August 5, 2003 Quotejust for the record, from someone with 100 paracomander jumps, the first paracomander was brought to the US from France from an orginal member of the US Army Golden Knights and someone I am proud to call a close friend, Jerry Bourquin. Blue Skies AFAIK - Slight misunderstanding here. The basic concept of the PC type canopy - including the crown lines to the apex to create "pressure" etc/ - was invented by the French. The PC category was called "Lemoigne" type canopy (assume after the guy who invented it (?)) So the person you are talking about probably bought home one of the original Lemoigne - probably an early Papillion.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonybrogdon 0 #41 August 6, 2003 I just remember Jerry referring to bring the first Paracomander over from France. I also remember seeing the Golden Knights doing a demo at Fort Sam Houston in the early 70's with Paracommanders.Tony Brogdon D-12855 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #42 August 9, 2003 QuoteI just remember Jerry referring to bring the first Paracomander over from France. I also remember seeing the Golden Knights doing a demo at Fort Sam Houston in the early 70's with Paracommanders. Hi Tony, What Jerry brought back was called the french acending canopy, or a para-sail. Pioneer, Ed Vickery to be exact, developed the PC. Sparky aka Michael OwensMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #43 August 9, 2003 Sparky... So there I am at the Dayton Air show a couple of weeks ago, One of our team members, a really good friend for over 25 years and an ex-Golden Knight ... has me waiting at the hotel to give his uncle a ride to the airport to watch us jump. Uncle slowly climbs into the van, not looking too well after recent surgery... I'm thinking, Hot day, busy airport...not a good place for this 'old guy' But he's Bill's uncle and whatever Bill wants... Half way to the airport, Unc's starts telling me about his jumping career... (hummm..didn't seem the type, I think...) He was the first test jumper on the Para Commander for the military.... First to jump both the C-130 and the C-141... ...not just stories...had the names, dates and PICS to back it all up! We went to his home in Dayton for a cook out the next afternoon... you would not believe this guys 'Trophy Room' !!! ...him with Westmoreland...him with the first Knights...on and on. I asked if he knew Jerry...he was fuzzy...then asked me "did he have a really low D number...like 22?" ...The people you meet, in the weirdest circumstances!!!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonybrogdon 0 #44 August 12, 2003 Hi Mike & Jim; Your are both right- Jerry Bourquin is D-22. One of the best people we will ever meet. I ask Jerry for several years to say hi to Charlie Brown of the Golden Knights for me when he went back east to the Golden Knight reunions. Finally when the Knights were competing in the US Nationals at Perris a couple of years I ran into Charlie Brown. He remembered me back in 1978 in Petersburg, Virginia when we used to jump together. I had wanted to see him for years to remind him that he sold me a paracommander in a Green Star Express. I promptly went home and brought back the picture of me in that rig at West Point, Virginia DZ and gave it to him. Fornuately, I survived the infamous death rig the " Green Star Express". I also got some soft landings on my paracommander. TonyTony Brogdon D-12855 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bravoniner 0 #45 March 5, 2004 Bill: I remember the PC as being all 2.2 oz. taffeta, not just the stabilizer panels (at least the Mk. I was). That was one of the reasons this 24' canopy was so bulky (that, along with the crown lines, the PDA bridle, etc.). That fabric WAS subject to lots of pinhole burns but, otherwise, seemd pretty darned durable. Even if you got a tear, the small panel sizes would keep it from propagating very far. BUT, I'm not at all sure how well this fabric ages. Bravoniner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #46 March 10, 2004 "I Want a P.C. Anonymous To the tune of "Humoresque" Pioneer, Pioneer come and tell me. How can I get a special color P.C. Without buying a twenty-five canopy lot. I want my design so badly. But my bank account looks sadly. Won't you please put something in the pot. So I'm taking up a collection. Buying my P.C. section by section. So far I've bought a connector link. If things keep going at this rate. Date of completion should not be too great. Twenty years should do it, I should think. P.I., P.I. come to save me. Sold me a special color P.C. Its a beautiful black and blue. Made a down wind crash and burn. Guess that I will never learn. Now, my body's black and blue too. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #47 March 31, 2004 Quote Sorry not true the big guy's had to do a plf or else, they could hurt themselves on landing, nothing critical if they were unlucky maybe one or two broken legs or ankle's at the same time. Very hardcore guys but very tame compared injuries that some people get from the High performance landings of today. *** PC & PAP were almost the same... The Pap was a bit better accuri wise, but landed harder. The difference was the vent holes in the front of the Pap that allowed you to 'back up' while in' deep sink... Yeah right! Here's a couple PICs of my Pap... On one I just 'hooked' it in and rear riser 'flare' for a stand up. ...the other is a shot at the disk, me landing in deep sink...down wind! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #48 March 31, 2004 Good God Airtwardo, maybe it's just the angle of the picture but that landing area in the second picture looks awfully close to trailers, aircraft, trees, powerlines, lawn chars, toys, etc. not to mention that it looks rock hard.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #49 March 31, 2004 Quoteclose to trailers, aircraft, trees, powerlines, lawn chars, toys, etc. not to mention that it looks rock hard *** ...And THAT was the open area!!! With the "Get it or Go in" attitude of the day, we took those things into places a wiser person surely wouldn't! But then again we were pretty good on them too! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #50 March 31, 2004 Yeah, I was gettin' fairly good on my Pap until it blew up and I got my first reserve ride. I got my first square after that, a Standard Cloud.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
