Bad decision I wanted to share, I was lucky.

[LawnDart21 0]

So, this past weekend, I made 16 jumps in two days. I normally try to make 8-10 jumps a weekend, so this weekend I was above my normal average. The result, I started to get complacent. On a jump late in the day, I deployed normally at 3500, resulting in diving line twists, ya know, the kind that puts you on your back diving behind you. Well, I jump a 120 elliptical loaded about 1.9, so I was moving fast. My first thought was "I can get out of this" and my second thought was "I haven't heard my ditter's hard line, so I'm still above 2000ft. My wrist altimeter was covered by my slider slapping on the risers, ie, no visual altitude references, not even the ground as I was on my back. Anyways, long story short, I got out of the twists and regained control at about 1600ft, just above my decision altitude. The moral of the story is that my audible never went off, so conceivably I could have kept fighting the twist all the way to the ground. My instinct was to cut it away immediately, then the thought "I don't want to lose a brand new main" and "maybe I can get out of this", popped in my head. Had I had it to do over again, I would have (and will in the future) chop it first, then think about what I could have done better. The moral of my story is that as canopies get smaller, the "maybe I can fix this" idea becomes less and less of an option. This time I was lucky, next time I'll be smart. The odds are better on being smart!
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Paying 30 quid for a repack has gotta be better than making a dent in the planet. Glad you got out of it. Cheers for sharing as well !! Adrenaline Junkie Skydive Monkey

[LawnDart21 0]

"Gravity and the ground, neither one gives a shit about you"
Right?
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[diverdriver 5]

I'm amazed that people keep trying to get out of this. I know I have personally posted that you should not try to kick out of spinning line twists. Our friend at SDC rode spinning line twists to 200 feet and then chopped. He didn't make it. Another jumper visiting SDC delayed chopping from spinning line twists and barely got a reserve open before hitting the ground. I know I posted about that video too. Do you people think that can only happen to the other guy? What is the deal? Are these stories not getting through to anyone? Am I wasting my breath?
I'm glad you are ok. I'm just a little frustrated at the moment reading this. This is not a new malfunction. What ideas did you have on the ground before this malfunction that led you to believe you could kick out of this malfunction in time before you hit the ground. It certainly sounds like your decision to dump at 3,500 was the decision that broke the chain leading to an outcome like these other jumpers.
I'm not harping on you. I see this on these boards all too often. Someone posts to all to read so it doesn't happen to them. Then....down the road someone makes almost the same identical post as though this is the first time it's happened. The advice that Billvon.....Skybytch....Me....and others give is for you to never have to go through this. We don't make new mistakes in skydiving. We only repeat the old ones.
I'm sorry Tom.....I know I sound like I'm picking on you. I'm trying to wake up some other people who read here as I know you are too. Hopefully.....you have just enlightened someone else to not repeat this.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP

[LawnDart21 0]

No prob Diverdriver, no offense taken. As my jump numbers got higher over the last two years, so too did my deployment altitude. In retrospect, I think it was the "I dumped high, I have a few seconds to work this out, I only see a few twists, let's give it a try" that got me. What I should have been thinking is "Vengeance = GROUND HUNGRY, 360 degree spin = 800ft drop". The reason I posted this is because prior to the jump and after I landed, I always knew the right answer "don't fight diving line twists", but for some reason at the very moment it mattered, I didn't stick to the game plan. That made me think, if it happened to me, it could happen to others, so I wanted to so share it with everyone. I am veyr current, averaging about 40 jumps a month, so it wasn't rusty skills, I knew the right thing to do, but still chose to try and get out of it anyways. That spooked me out a bit so I thought I'd share it to give others something to think about too.
"I live to EFS"
Tom

[diverdriver 5]

Exactly what I was thinking happened. Again...your decision to move up your deployment altitude broke that chain. Nicely done. It's human nature though as A type personalities (skydivers) to want to "fix" things. ALL should heed Tom's warning here. Spinning line twists are now a HIGH SPEED MALFUNCTION as much as a bag lock is. And maybe worse than a bag lock because of the spinning.
Again, thanks for sharing Tom.
Chris

[Michele 1]

Hi, guys...

Quote

Do you people think that can only happen to the other guy? What is the deal? Are these stories not getting through to anyone? Am I wasting my breath?.....(and)....The advice that Billvon.....Skybytch....Me....and others give is for you to never have to go through this.

I can only speak for myself, but I AM LISTENING and listening very hard. I appreciate the information and advice on these boards, and realize that the people posting their stories are doing so for a reason - for my/our benefit. So thanks, for those who have told their stories, and those who will have stories to tell. My ass may just be the one you teach and save.
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele
Life is what you make it; always was, always will be.
~Grandma Moses~

[rhino 0]

Thanks for the post... Since I have been jumping a smaller elliptical I have pulled for the most part above 4k.. I tend to expect a spinning dive although I have yet to open in a dive with my new crossfire2. I still expect it. My old Diablo110 use to like opening that way..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[LawnDart21 0]

501 jumps without a cutaway (yet) and it was my first spinning/diving malfunction. Ya know how you normally get pulled upright on deployment? I got pulled upright and then immediately right over on my back. I can remember my old sabre 150 would occasionally decide it wanted to travel backwards on me, but at a 1.5 wingloading, it all happened so slowly and kind of just lumped along, I could see it happening and had plenty of time to react. With the Vengeance at 1.9 (which normally opens beautifully for the record), it was a split second thing, one second deploying, next second spinning like a pin wheel.....LOL
Thanks Chris, it kind sucks to raise my hand and say to the e-world "Ya, I fucked up, without any rational reason to do so, and I'm lucky I didn't make a dent in the landing area for being just plain stupid." But I figure it's better to share and look stupid than to keep it to myself and not offer the experience to others. Like Michele said, who knows, maybe some else will read this and not make the same mistake.
"Safe swoops to all and to all a good flight!"
Tom

[steve1 5]

I'm learning loads from everyone's imput on this forum. I can see now the need not to waste time messing with this type of malfunction, (although I seem to have missed reading much about this in past posts). I know it's important not to get on a load without the proper game plan. Up until last week I had the wrong plan in mind for a pilot chute in tow malfunction. After reading Merrick's story I know now not to try pulling the pin manually. Keep the stories and ideas coming. Your knowlege is greatly appreciated. Your words are helping more than you realize. Steve

[gale 0]

OK, so I get the point here, and yes, I've heard it before. As usual, I appriciate the courage of someone saying, "I f*cked up, and here's how". I just have a question for clarification:
How do you know the line twists are so bad you can't kick out of them? I hear the term "diving" or "spinning" so does this mean that even a slow spin should immediately be cutaway? And what exactly is a "diving" line twist? Does this mainly apply to high performance canopies?
Thanks for the help, I'm just trying to get a clear picture in my head of what it looks like.
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[Scoby 0]

Quote

Spinning line twists are now a HIGH SPEED MALFUNCTION as much as a bag lock is. And maybe worse than a bag lock because of the spinning.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does this only apply to high-performance ellipticals? If so, at what point should one change their emergency procedures from "kick out" to "cutaway"? First elliptical? A certain wingloading? I'm a little confused, as my jumpmasters told me that linetwists wouldn't be a problem unless I was jumping a small canopy. I've had line twists twice, which I kicked out of easily. Or is "spinning" the operative word? How can I tell the difference between "normal" and "spinning" line twists? Bear with me, I still don't know a lot!

[Jimbo 0]

When you're on your back spinning so fast you can feel the blood rushing to your feet it's probably time to cutaway.
You'll know when the time comes.
-
Jim

[diverdriver 5]

The difference is "spinning line twists" = being on your back spinning as though you pulled one toggle down to your foot. VERY FAST.
But if you are hanging directly underneath your line twists then you can probably kick out of them. But...sometimes you can't get ahead of them and this is when your awareness of your altitude is so critical. If you can't get ahead of those twists and you hit decision altitude then chop, chop.
Chris

[Scoby 0]

Quote

The difference is "spinning line twists" = being on your back spinning as though you pulled one toggle down to your foot. VERY FAST.
But if you are hanging directly underneath your line twists then you can probably kick out of them. But...sometimes you can't get ahead of them and this is when your awareness of your altitude is so critical. If you can't get ahead of those twists and you hit decision altitude then chop, chop.

OK, I understand now. I am still unclear as to whether it's an elliptical only problem. Is there any possibility of this happening on large or square canopy? Is it hard to cut away from this malfunction? I remember reading an incident report that aid the person was trying to cut, but couldn't, though the risers released easily on the ground. Is that due to poor gear design or something else? Thanks!

[billvon 2,395]

> Is there any possibility of this happening on large or square canopy?
Yes, but it is less likely. On most large squares you can kick out of line twists. On most small ellipticals you can't.
>I remember reading an incident report that aid the person was trying to cut, but couldn't, though the risers released easily on the
>ground. Is that due to poor gear design or something else? Thanks!
Who knows? If the twists were up to the risers, and the risers did not have the hard-channel insert, it may well have caused a non-cutaway. Even if the twists were not up to the risers, if the risers themselves were out of spec, or the cutaway cables were dirty or worn, it could have caused the same thing.
-bill von

[rhino 0]

My first jump under my Diablo110 I had a toggle come undone.. I opened at 8000 feet so I had plenty of time. I took that canopy down to 5000 feet before I could gather what was wrong.. It spun and dived THAT fast.. What did I learn?? First to expect a diveon opening and to immediately fly out with rear risers.. Second if that doesn't work let BOTH breaks out.. lol
That spinning, diving opening scewed me up big time.. By the time I got out I was dusy as hell.. I tried my damndest to get that thing out of the dive? Looked at the lines? Canopy? Harness? Then after releasing the breaks I felt like a dumb ass.. I learned..
Rhino
Blue Skies .....

[Scoby 0]

Quote

That spinning, diving opening scewed me up big time.. By the time I got out I was dusy as hell.. I tried my damndest to get that thing out of the dive? Looked at the lines? Canopy? Harness? Then after releasing the breaks I felt like a dumb ass.. I learned..

While not the same thing, on my second AFF, my canopy opened in a turn and it looked pretty ugly overhead. I pondered the red pillow and nearly went for it, before deciding to release the brakes. The canopy stopped turning, and flaring for a few seconds inflated the end cells. It flew just fine after that. I certainly was encouraged that I was able to sort out the problem, but I certainly wish it happened a little later on! I want to get a good sense for which problems I should work through and which ones I should cut away from right away.

[Snowbird 0]

As Michele and Steve said, thanks to everyone for sharing their stories. For us newbies who have sponge-like brains, sucking up every bit of skydiving info we can, these accounts are so valuable. And since we haven't been around long enough to read past stories, it's great that you keep on posting them.
And lawndart, so glad it worked out. Don't kick yourself too hard! You walked away, and learned!

[mountainman 0]

Another one DiverDriver said when I met him at Chicagoland......
"Gravity doesn't take a day off.
How true. JumpinDuo.com...news, pictures, skydiving and links.

[IronMike 0]

If I am ever in a spinning line twist at ANY altitude, I'm chopping. Period the end. It is threads like this that made me decide this. Thanks for all the posts and I am a wiser skydiver because of them.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>Is there any possibility of this happening on large or square canopy? Is it hard to
>cut away from this malfunction?
Yes, yes, and possibly.
On a square canopy, yes:
A year ago I had to cut away by TurboZX145 (loaded 1.4) from a very aggressive spinner. One of my risers was pressing on my face so I couldn't see anything. I just felt being horizontal and spinning very fast. One of my teammates saw the mal and later said that I was losing altitude fast.
On a large canopy, yes:
A couple of weeks later a S/L-student had to cut-away a Navigator260 from a similar mal. Of course on a larger canopy the spinning and diving won't be as aggressive, so the student tried to calmly kick out the twists until the decision altitude of 600m, and then cut away. The exit-camera footage showed line twists developing(this is quite usual for S/L deployment). The student had an uneven body-position, and this combined with the twists sort of "locked" the canopy one side lower than the other, causing the dive.
Is it hard to cut away? Possibly.
A spinning mal can generate quite a lot of G's, and this increases the load on the three-rings(even if properly maintained, even if the twists don't come all the way to the risers). Larger three-rings won't be as hard to cut-away as minirings. See this:
http://www.relativeworkshop.com/technical/risers/pullforce.htm
Erno