haleyes 0 #26 May 28, 2002 < Unless you have something better to offer (maybe you could give him access to a Fatatities system here but I don;t think that would speed things up, or get the moderator(s) (Bill Von?) to comment on incidents), or Barry has relinquished his role, I think you'd be doing him a disservice by trying to recreate what he's done. >The bottom line here is that the current fatalities page is NOT being attended to. I don't think having a fatality and incident page here is doing a disservice to anyone. This information is too important to be considered anyone's "private domain". As for lawyers and lawsuits... we will always have them. Are we going to stop doing what needs to be done because someone, somewhere may find it offensive? A properly maintained fatality and incident page would be VERY helpful to those of us who are on the low end of the experience curve. larry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #27 May 28, 2002 Well said Craig! Berry and Eric are doing their best to maintain the site. The best possible information might not be the first draft of an incident report that is only a few hours old, it might be one that has been looked at through a few eyes, analysed and processed after there is time to properly evaluate the incident. At first glance an incident could be called a hook turn, but it might have been found later to be something like a dropped toggle during a turn to final. How is posting wrong/rushed information going to help us avoid incidents in the future? If you want first and second hand romurs of an incident, read rec. or here. If you want to get the best possible version.... wait for Berry to update his pages.I know that Berry used to rely on the USPA, rec.er's and DZ.com'ers to email him when there was an incident that they knew about or heard of. I'm sure the same would have to be done for Sangiro so why duplicate the work and effort if there is not a big mondo improvment that could be offered with a different format of a page?If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #28 May 28, 2002 I would love to see one. Reading about the incidents keeps my mind freshly focused on the safety aspects of the sport. Helps me treat it with more respect. Please to put them up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #29 May 28, 2002 I think a nonfatal incident page would be good. The people who have the accidents can post the entries themselves, along with commentary on what could've been done to avoid the accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #30 May 28, 2002 QuoteI think you'd be doing him a diservice by trying to recreate what he's done. Craig - the intention is not to do anyone a disservice. I do believe there are several ways you may be able to improve on what Barry is offering. You mentioned some, and also identified some early on which led you to place his content in a database for analysis. He seems to have now caught up with your improvement. I think there may be more. What I'm hoping to get out of this conversation is a sense of what other expectations people have around a service like that. Like Barry I don't have a lot of time so I'll only do something if it actually adds value. I will not do it with the intent to do him a disservice, and at the same time I don't think Barry's pages is a holy cow. Some interesting ideas so far but I'm far from convincing myself that I want to launch into this.Safe swoopsSangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #31 May 28, 2002 **PS: "under the canopies that send jumpers to their deaths"???? man, I'm not the most Nazi's of the canopy Nazis, but i cant agree with a staement like that....**Remster:i'm confident that the following explanation will clear this up for you, as the remark was not intended to be inflamatory.what i meant by the remark, is someone mentioned getting the story after a fatality straight, my remark was intended to show that even the dzo's can have a different inturpretation of events leading to sky diving incidents. the remark was also intended to show that the dzo is not under the canopies that the jumpers are, (and generally the only person who does know what really went wrong is most unfortunately the jumper) thus how much do they know what actually happened? in the untimely event of an incident, who's story is "the real deal?" all of us could break it down into our own perspectives. i think Chris Schindler had an excellent post on this "area" in talkback today, about a jumper under canopy with line twists. billvon also touched on a subject in the las vegas dz subject, while i'm opposed to sky divers, and they're heirs suing a dz, or dzo, i'm also opposed to the dzo(s) suing someone else for monies spent during a litigation, maybe we should have the dzo sign one of our waivers as well, makes for provacative thinking...Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #32 May 29, 2002 QuoteWhat I'm hoping to get out of this conversation is a sense of what other expectations people have around a service like thatWhat about integrating to Barry's db? It would be relatively easy to get some data sharing going on, even if you did it the cheap way by doing a nightly batch transfer of an access database file... although I've never tried doing ODBC in perl.What about instead of recreating Barry's site, simply put a pretty wrapper on his data?_AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #33 May 29, 2002 QuoteWhat about integrating to Barry's db?Just an FYI here: I suggested this to Barry quite a while ago and he wasn't interested. I may contact him again. At the same time, as I said earlier I'd only be interested in doing this if I can do something with value add. To that extend it doesn't really make sense just to wrap his data.Safe swoopsSangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #34 May 29, 2002 QuoteI'd only be interested in doing this if I can do something with value add. Isn't one stop shopping a value add? There are quite a few who don't even know that his page exists, even by simply duplicating the data here I think you'd be doing a service to the community.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #35 May 29, 2002 Hi, HH!I really hate to ask you (beg you? plead with you? bribe you? Beer?????) to do even more than you already do on this most awsome of sites...but...Quote At the same time, as I said earlier I'd only be interested in doing this if I can do something with value add. Where I think value added would be in the material available for reading and discussing. One of the things which I think really helped me during and after the cutaway was reading through most of the old threads, and learning bunches of things...and especially what to expect. I remember being so thankful that this place was here. And to be honest, I have learned far more on these pages than I have from my instructors, inasmuch there is so much I haven't encountered, but others have, and my former instructors are usually very busy and don't have lots of time to talk about things (and sometimes I ask here rather than with my instructors, too...I would love to see an incidents page, be it fatality or non-fatality, just for the learning aspect of it. I have a great imagination, but even I can't cover all the stuff which can happen, and how to avoid it. It is more important to learn on the ground than in the air, and this is a prime spot for the learning curve to continue, while not hanging suspended under a canopy thinking "well, now what do I do"...Just my .02, but I think it would be incredibly value adding.Thanks for all your work, HH!Ciels and Pinks-MicheleLife is what you make it; always was, always will be.~Grandma Moses~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Engovatov 0 #36 May 30, 2002 >Just an FYI here: I suggested this to Barry quite a while ago> and he wasn't interested. I may contact him again. At the> same time, as I said earlier I'd only be interested in doing > this if I can do something with value add. To that extend it>doesn't really make sense just to wrap his data.Maybe self or friend reported non-fatal accidents (in a form of a moderated forum) can be useful - there is abunch of posts in Safety and gear sections that may be relevant (but hard to find, if you just want to browse some unfortunate experience information)Like paragliding accidents page here maybe: http://www.web-partners.com/paragliding/acc.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #37 May 30, 2002 Sang.. Things get heated up enough without that in the forums. In my opinion given the legalities and the feelings that fly in that sort of discussion maybe it should be left alone?Rhino Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #38 May 30, 2002 QuoteLike Barry I don't have a lot of time so I'll only do something if it actually adds valueThere's been at least two fatalities in the US this last weekend, and at least two more major injuries. Barry hasn't updated his site since January 8. This information NEEDS to get out there.Unless Barry is going to step up and start updating his site, a replacement is badly needed._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #39 May 30, 2002 Ok.... Who has the information on the jump numbers, years in sport, canopies, container, the STA report, the medical examiner/FAA/Rigger report, an overview of the events leading to the incident that they can send in on each event this weekend? All of this is needed to get an accurate picture of the incidents.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #40 May 30, 2002 QuoteBarry hasn't updated his site since January 8. The last incident reported in the database right now is April 7, actually. I think Barry does very well with a difficult job. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #41 May 30, 2002 Barry has historically been very cautious about not reporting anything until all the facts come in. I think that's a pretty responsible way to approach it. I generally see about a one-week to one-month lag between an incident and his report. It just depends on the circumstances.There has been a bit of a bigger lag lately, but there's plenty of discussion of these incidents here and on wreck. So it's not like the info is lacking. "Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bananna 0 #42 May 31, 2002 In my opinion adding a fatality page is very important. It is an unfortunate thing, but it is also a humbling, learning experience. I also feel that it can help answer many questions and rumors that circulate in the skydiving community. It helps to know the facts.-Anna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #43 May 31, 2002 QuoteThe last incident reported in the database right now is April 7, actually. I think Barry does very well with a difficult job. Barry's page at http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities was last updated Feb 7, and doesn't have any 2002 statistics.The other page at http://www.skydivefatalities.com is NOT run by Barry. It's a wreck dotter that started it up after Barry neglected his, and has been neglecting it equally._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #44 May 31, 2002 Berry used to have a note on his page that he was no longer going to be updating the Skydivenet pages since his database site is not stored there any longer.From Craig Paxon: Barry still provides the information for the page but Eric Denney provides the web services. I presume either Barry has administrative access to the site (if Eric is clever) or he just forwards them to be uploaded.Both are using the same data, one just has a Gui interface and the other was scrapped a few months ago. And the new site has not been "neglected", as much as they are waiting for the full details to be released to end rumours about the incidents. Lets see, posting data pulled only from rec. and here with out getting all the facts from the STA, ME if suspected medical conditions, rigger, etc is just irresponicble at best and could convey the wrong solutions at worst.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haleyes 0 #45 May 31, 2002 Phreezone, I think you should stop making excuses for Barry. I use to check his site 3-4 times a week, and he reported incidents as they happened, NOT weeks or months later. If the information was sketchy, he said so, but the incident was reported nevertheless. It is silly to think that we should "wait" until Barry gets around to it. Yes, preliminary reports can be misleading... that's why they are called preliminary. But it doesn't need to be a wasteful or negative thing to report it in "real" time. Barry used to do a pretty good job at gathering the information in a timely fashion. For whatever reason, he has not been able to do so lately. So why not start a fatality and incident page here? If Sangrio is willing, and I hope that he is, then why not support his efforts? It can only benefit us all.larry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #46 June 2, 2002 QuoteGood idea or waste of time?Bossman, knowledge is power. The more we know about what is killing other skydivers, the better equipped we are to skydive safely. If you build it, we will read...!"There's nothing new under the sun" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diver123 0 #47 June 2, 2002 I don't think it's dwelling on negativity at all... This info is very useful in educating others from mistakes..."pull high! It's lower than you think..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #48 June 5, 2002 Barry has put a message up on http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities/ on the 4th of June which reads:"Incomplete 2002 data can be found at www.skydivingfatalities.com. This will become the new version of this site, which I will continue to maintain. I'm a little behind in keeping this up to date, but should be caught up by the end of the week... My world has been a little crazy of late! Blue skies -- Barry." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #49 June 12, 2002 QuoteThere's been at least two fatalities in the US this last weekend, and at least two more major injuries. Barry hasn't updated his site since Februar 8. This information NEEDS to get out there.Barry's pages still haven't been updated since Februrary.... Our friends are still dieing. We need this information in the public.What are your thoughts, HH?_AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #50 June 12, 2002 Andy, the site craig refered to (http:// www.skydivingfatalities.com)has an item listed 4/7/2002.. not sure where you got the Feb date.....RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
