RSL or No RSL, that is the question....

[Ruffles 0]

Hey gang, newbie here (20 jumps) in need of help. I just bought a Silhouette 210 (square) that has all the goodies including a CYPRESS and an RSL. I cannot get a straight answer from anyone at my drop zone regarding RSLs. One instructor told me that I should never jump with out one and another told me I should disconnect it before every jump. I understand how RSLs work and their pros and cons, but I am trying to determine what has really been documented to happen when one cuts away with and RSL from what many people THINK happens when one cuts away using an RSL. I read the "RSL myths" post on this website, and that helped alot, but I still see and hear conflicting opinions. Here's the scoop: I... (#1) have a square main with a 1:1 loading, (#2) Do not do or intend to do CRW, (#3) have never had a cut away (#4) have never heard of riser tears on single occupant canopoies. Knowing all this, should I RSL-it or not? Thx, Ruffles

[PhillyKev 0]

If you do a search, you'll find many many debates about this subject. They're all going to boil down to probably the same info you're getting at your dz. Bottom line is, you have to decide for yourself, there's no right or wrong answer.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Best advice I've heard (Bill V.) regarding RSL's is wait until after your first cutaway, then decide if you want to remove it or not.

BTW- IIRC, the Silhoutte is a semi-elliptical canopy.

Hook

[billvon 2,384]

>I cannot get a straight answer from anyone at my drop zone
>regarding RSLs.

There is no one straight answer. My general recommendation is that you use an RSL for normal jumping at least until your first cutaway; at that point you will be able to make a more informed decision on its value.

>but I am trying to determine what has really been documented to
> happen when one cuts away with and RSL from what many people
> THINK happens when one cuts away using an RSL.

They have saved a great many people, and a moderate number (20 or so) over the past 10 years would have been saved by an RSL. They very rarely cause problems on normal jumps; I can only think of a very few problems caused by an RSL when used as intended. One fatality was on a two-sided RSL which is an odd design, another was a main riser that snagged the RSL and deployed the reserve.

Take one year alone. RSL's would have saved between two and five people in 1997. One tandem master was killed when an RSL deployed the reserve when one main riser broke; this is much less likely on modern sport jumper equipment.

One suggestion I would make is that you make your decision based on as much fact as you can and as little myth as you can. There are a lot of myths in skydiving nowadays (like bigger canopies have higher riser pressures overall) that just sound right so they are believed. The four biggest myths about RSL's are:

1. You have to get stable before deploying your reserve.

Reserves are designed to be deployed when unstable; the Racer manual actually recommends a head-high attitude (like you get right after a cutaway) instead of a belly to earth attitude. Unstable reserve openings are very, very rarely a problem.

2. You only need an RSL if you're not competent to pull your reserve.

Rick Horn, one of the AFF-JCC course directors, was saved by his after his harness was twisted up by a spinning mal. He teaches instructors how to teach every month; it's unlikely he's unfamiliar with cutaway procedures, and with over 5000 jumps he has some experience. Many other people have been saved when they cut away too low, and even a second's hesitation "to get stable" would have killed them.

3. If you have a cypres you don't need an RSL.

They are two completely different devices that do two things. One of the primary reasons an RSL can save you is that it gets your reserve out quickly if you cut away low; a cypres will not help you if you cut away very low.

4. Risers break all the time, and an RSL will cause an entanglement if the wrong riser breaks.

This used to be somewhat true, during the time that type-17 risers were just starting to be popular and the Sabre and other fast-opening canopies were seeing widespread usage. Since then riser design has come a long way, and risers very rarely break. However, it should be pointed out that if a riser does break, you have a 50/50 chance of your RSL causing a problem.

[MyUserID 0]

Oh boy...here we go.

------------------------------------------------------

Remember kids, eagles may soar, but at least weasels dont get sucked into jet engines.

[rgoper 0]

Quote

BTW- IIRC, the Silhoutte is a semi-elliptical canopy.

no, no, hell no! it's "slightly tapered on the trailing edge" J/K

on the RSL thing, 20 jumps, wait for that first cut-away, then make your decision. until you've experienced a spinning mal on your back, you haven't lived! in the end, this is a personal decision. IMO.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Beachbum 0]

I'm amazed that any instructor is recommending disconnecting the RSL to someone with only 20 jumps ... ??? seems a bit out of kilter to me ... would you more experienced and/or JM's etc. post an opinion of this??

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[AndyMan 7]

That is not only amazing, but mind bogling. Is half decent advice from instructors really too much to ask?

For anyone wondering about an RSL or not, you might start by reading an article BillVon wrote a few monthes back, Top 5 RSL myths.

Myself, after three hundred jumps I experienced my first malfunction, bought an eliptical canopy, and started flying camera. I chose then to disconnect my RSL, because I was in two higher risk groups, and had prooven to myself some basic survival skills.

I can think of three reasons that partly support not having an RSL.

1) you fly a highly loaded eliptical canopy known for violent spinnign malfunctions. Given sufficient altitude, you might want a short delay before reserve deployment.

2) you have large electronics mounted on your helmet contributing to the risk of entanglement. You might need to clear an entanglement after cutting away before deploying the reserve.

3) You're doing Canopy Relative Work, and might need to fall away from a wrap before deploying.

Those are the only three legitimate reasons for disconnecting an RSL that I can think of, and I only disconnected mine when I hit two of them...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[drenaline 0]

Nobody will be able to answer you that. You can hear and read what we think and do with our gear but you need to make the choice by yourself. There are about 3 articles about RSL in the dropzone.com gear articles (http://www.dropzone.com/gear/articles/) read them and make your choice.

Quote

should I RSL-it or not?

please don't take what I said bad, but if something happens to you and the choice of RSL or not RSL may contribute to make the accident worst, you will probably start pointing fingers at the posts and maybe make some of us feel guilty. Of course since you are a skydiver it will be quite the oposite and you wont be like that finger guy

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[billvon 2,384]

>1) you fly a highly loaded eliptical canopy known for violent spinnign
> malfunctions. Given sufficient altitude, you might want a short delay
> before reserve deployment.

In some cases, this is a reason FOR an RSL. We see more and more people with 200 jumps jumping Stiletto 120's; even if they get good canopy training they will probably not have a reserve ride at that point. If they do get a spinner, try for 10 seconds to kick it out, decide to cut away, take 2 seconds to find the handle and pull it - they could easily be getting close to 1000 feet. If, at 1000 feet, they decide to do what they've practiced on the ground (i.e. "take a short delay to get stable") they may find themselves at 200 feet under a reserve that has just begun to open. An RSL might well save these people.

RSL's get your reserve out quickly after you cut away. Newer jumpers may not have the experience to know how quickly a small elliptical loses altitude in a lineover or spinner; they almost certainly do not know how long it takes to get stable after an unstable cutaway. Situations like that are when RSL's are most valuable.

Of course, the better idea is to not get a Crossfire-97 at 300 jumps, and get the experience with cutaways, line twists etc under a slightly larger canopy that is not as deadly in a mal. The number of people who actually listen to such advice is small.

[Ruffles 0]

Thanks you guys, at last some sound advice. As to all the posts, I DO listen, I WILL NOT point fingers at you, and I appreciate your advice. For me, the thrill is in the free-fall, not the canopy ride; I have no intention of getting an elliptical in my first 1000 jumps. Sounds like an RSL is a good idea for me. One last question(s): (#1) I have a Raven II reserve. Can I get one of those cross connector things that ensure the reserve is not deployed until BOTH risers have separated or is it just for the Racer? (#2) Am I gonna experience violently spinning mals on the Silhouette, as you said it is "semi-elliptical" or are the spins going to keep me under the canopy as opposed to horizontal with it? Thank again folks. Ruffles

[billvon 2,384]

>One last question(s): (#1) I have a Raven II reserve. Can I get one
> of those cross connector things that ensure the reserve is not
> deployed until BOTH risers have separated or is it just for the Racer?

You cannot easily retrofit a two-sided RSL to a one-sided rig. A master rigger might be able to do it, but it would be an unusual mod that could cause as many problems as it solves (the two-sided RSL has caused at least one fatality.)

>(#2) Am I gonna experience violently spinning mals on the
> Silhouette . . .

It's unlikely. I have a Silhouette 170 and it is one of the best behaved canopies I have ever jumped. A lineover can still cause a violently spinning mal, but overall you have less to worry about than under, say, a Saphire 169.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Newer jumpers may not have the experience to know how quickly a small elliptical loses altitude in a lineover or spinner; they almost certainly do not know how long it takes to get stable after an unstable cutaway. Situations like that are when RSL's are most valuable.

To underscore this, I'm proud to announce that I've finally figured out how to properly export a jump-track freefall graph.

Take a look at the attache jpeg. This is a jump from last week where after filming a rather interesting hybrid attempt, I deployed at 2,500, found myself in line twists that manifested itself as a spinning malfunction under my Stiletto loaded at 1.6. What I'd like to draw your attention to is the fact that at 2000 feet, while my canopy is spinning towards the ground, the pro-track is logging a verticle speed upwards of 130 MPH - FASTER then standard belly-to-earth freefall speeds. In fact, the verticle speed shows a sharp ecceleration during the spinning malfunction.

This needs to be taken with a grain of salt because of innacuracies in helmet-mounted pro-tracks, but the point is valid. Spinning malfunctions under heavily loaded eliptical canopies burn altitude FAST. DAMN FAST.

In my previous post I said it MIGHT be desirable to delay deploying the reserve IF SUFFIECIENT ALTITUDE. The attached JPEG reinforces the importance of this. It's arguable that you should ever delay reserve deployment in a spinning mal because you're probably not going to be smart enough to check first, but I posted that previous comment in the frame of outlining legitimate reasons for POSSIBLY delaying deployment.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[YahooLV 0]

Hey, just thought I'd add my two cents. I shoot videos. When I'm shooting, the RSL is OFF! When I jump RW, then I re-attach it, just incase something happens at a lower opening alti.

Just my two cents.

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[WmLauterbach 0]

I had a violent spinning mal under an elliptical... with the RSL conected....

I just responded to this thread... (which means RSL's and ellipticals are not a deadly combination)

If I went up agian, knowing that the same thing would happen, I would still leave the RSL connected.

I only see video/crw as reasons for disconnecting...
(I have been known to disconnect under canopy on high wind days)

but guess what... that only pertains to the canopy I have above MY head...

If you dont trust it... dont use it. So to add a twist of perspective--->I work for the military and watch AAD's malfuction frequently... so I have an inherent lack of trust for "gadgets so that begs the question:

What happens if your cypress malfunctions on a freefly jump and fires your reserve while you are in a headdown/sit transition? Is that reason enough to start leaving your cypress turned off on a freefly jump?


TRUST YOUR EQUIPMENT OR BUY NEW GEAR!


No use in fighting over the merits... some people drive chevy's and some people drive fords
I agree with Bill... use it until you've had to chop one. Then decide what works best for you.

just my two cents, I could be wrong

[Deuce 1]

Have an RSL on your first rig. Jump it for at least 200 jumps. When you get your second rig/canopy decide then.

I'm moving into video as my primary type of jumping, and my new rig has no RSL. I've had a few minor malfunctions and found I was clear-headed enough to get to both handles and remember to pull them fast and in the proper order, but didn't end up having to. This would not have been true at my sub-100 jump point.

Good luck!

[freebird 0]

Oh my God ........ Im not putting the thing back on....

[cobaltdan 0]

Wm:

out of curiosity what were the specifics: i.e. what canopies main and reserve, what kind of spin (were you flat on your back and spiraling or were you also line twisting while spiraling), how many revolutions per second, what was your wing loadings?


sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[GrumpySmurf 0]

*puts hands to face in mock shock*
WOW! This is a totally new and never beaten to death topic!

[Dumpster 0]

I think saying this topic has been "Beat to death" is an understatement!

I just read for the utter amusement--

Easy Does It

[IronMike 0]

I watched a particulary nasty malfunction from the door of the Shark 2 days ago. One of the PD guys was doing a hop-n-pop for the Para Performance Swoop event with that experimental, detachable pilot chute, bag, slider combo. (I still have no idea how it works) He got a hung slider and was spinning like crazy right on deployment right out the door. He tried to fix it for like 5 seconds and finally chopped it. He still took a good 3-5 second delay after chopping before he deplyed his reserve and was under it at a reasonable altitude. If he had an RSL, he would have had a f$%@ed up reserve deployment.

I am big time anti RSL. I want my brain to be the computer, not a lanyard. I am always under my main at 2500, I have 2 audibles and I will chop rather than spend time (more than a few seconds) trying to fix a problem.

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

He tried to fix it for like 5 seconds and finally chopped it. He still took a good 3-5 second delay after chopping before he deplyed his reserve and was under it at a reasonable altitude. If he had an RSL, he would have had a f$%@ed up reserve deployment.

I am neither pro nor anti RSL, I just believe that anyone should have the facts before they make a decision. That said, there's a bit of a flaw in your argument here, you can't say for certain that he would have had a fucked up opening, remember the reserve parachute system was designed to open under a myriad of less than ideal conditions. That's as bad a parachutist saying 'A Cypres would have saved his life' - it just isn't that black and white.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[airdrew20012001 0]

You are right, there is not clear cut answer. If you are planning to jump camera, then get rid of it. I had a friend who was jumping a moderately loaded saphire and when he cut away his RSL sent his reserve freebag between his legs (he was spinning violently on his back). He landed without a problem and was ok, alittle shaken that's all.

Drewfus McDoofus

[deaffreeflyer 0]

Yeah we know how you felt about this! Everyone and me went through this before. Pretty confused, stuck in middle and nowhere to go?!

My rigger and instructor told me everything about pros & cons of RSL. They told me there are no straight, right or wrong answers to have RSL or not. They made me go home, think about it careful and come back to tell them what was my decision. So I did what they told me to. When I was home, I thought about it careful and realised that when I wanted to became a skydiver. At this point I knew nothing about RSL and Cypres and I was willing to jump. Because I thought it was my responsible to save my own ass by pull cutaway and reserve if any malfunction happened. All I know was 2 parachutes on my back! I aware and accepted the risk of injury and death in skydiving sport. All I can do to be more safe and careful. When I started my AFF I found out about RSL and Cypres which I never been thought about. I didn't think it will make sport 100% safety and guarantee come back ground safety. What I am trying to make point - you chose to jump because it's fun but you're prepared and aware of risk etc... Did you know anything about RSL and Cypres before you decided to jump? I didn't. RSL and Cypres are reduce risk to minimum and make sport little more safety but no guarantee. All we can do is hope it will work! You see what I am trying to make a point that we (not all!) will jump without it if it don't even
existing! I hope this make sense to you.

Then I looked into RSL issue and I chose not to have it because I believe in myself and my ability to pull cutaway and pull reserve in no matter what. I went back to DZ and told my instructor about my decision. He's happy with it as long as I am happy and comfortable with my decision and know my risk etc... But I know RSL can be really good in some areas e.g. your left arm's broke by mid-air collision you can't able to pull reserve with ur right arm or very low cutaway. But I chose not to and it's my ass! Of course I do want to keep bring my ass back to sky - all I have to do is be more safe and careful - aware of risks etc...

All you can do is - look into RSL issue and make your own decision. No one will tell you're stupid to have it or not. It's your life you play with. I am sure you'll make right one for yourself as long as you're happy and comfortable with it or without it.

Good Luck!

PS - Excuse me for my English. It's not my first language.

[skybytch 259]

I installed the RSL on my fourth rig; none of my previous rigs had one. At 900 jumps I still (knocking on wood ) haven't had to chop. While I'm very confident of my ability to pull those handles in the right order when I need to, for the kind of skydiving I do (RW and some freeflailing; a lightly loaded seven cell main) the issues surrounding RSL usage just aren't there. It makes sense for me to have an RSL on my rig, and it will stay there at least until after I've done my beer cutaway.