3rd solo = 1st reserve ride. need feedback

[pds 0]

jump went fine exit to pull. opened fine. controllable. coming in, burned off some alti by full left toggle, having a little fun. think it was around 6 or so revolutions. half brake out and steering feels funny, look up and 4,5 and 6 are all collapsed in on one another. takes a second to get it spread out again and i can see a huge rip down the center of the canopy and it is no longer as controllable as i would like and it felt like i was losing a lot of lift. so, one stage cutaway at 1300. great landing, lots of adrenaline.
as i was scooping up, dbag, pc and the entire (center rib?) fall right next to me.
i flew this canopy 2 jumps previous and all was well, packer is diligent and respected.
the entire panel that dbag is attached to peeled off, inside the seam.
did i put undo stress on the canopy? is there a practical limit on the centrifugal force that can be exerted safely? does this kind of thing happen often?
the canopy was still in flight, but my perception was that it was not safe to land. Would anyone of experience tried to land this canopy (with given information)?
was it a) prudent or b)simply unavoidable or c)foolish to cut away at 1300?
I would truly appreciate feedback on this somewhat unsettling but utlimately enlightening event.
oh, canopy was 250 in student rig.
Thank you.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Grumpy 5]

PDS, In my opinion you did exactly the right thing and I would have done the same myself. My personal 'hard deck' is 1000 ft above which I wouldn't hesitate to cut away. You should talk to instructors about this and decide on your own.
Don't worry about wheather of not your spiraling under canopy damaged it because any canopy should be well up to whatever it's pilot can throw at it and if it's not, then either it needs some TLC from a rigger or possibly it's just come to the end of it's life.
A packer is unlikely to have time to give a canopy a thorough inspection everytime they pack it so don't think this incident is a poor reflection on yours.
Two really good reasons for chopping that canopy are
1) The canopy damage was extensive and the canopy wasn't flying properly. The chances are it would have collapsed on you when you flared for landing and I needn't tell you how much that would have hurt.
2) There's no guarantee that a canopy that's damaged but just about flyable at 1300ft won't rip apart some more when you're too low to cut away.
You sound like you were very aware, calm and switched on - all great skydiver attributes. Well done dude. The only thing you omitted to tell us was if you bought beer for your first chop

[Macaulay 0]

Crazy. Sounds like your canopy was a victim center-cell stripping. Probably just too old and too big, and some hard openings with a large pilot chute. Your spiraling wouldn't have caused the center cell to rip out, rather, it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. The PC probably ripped everything out on your opening, and then the spiraling would have had just enough force to throw out the last few threads.

1,300 is just fine. Cypreses fire at 750'... nearly half the altitude of where you chopped.

Sounds like you did everything just fine. Sometimes it's hard to gauge, especially on your third solo, exactly how fast you're descending. So even if you were to flare as a check, and it felt slow, it might still be moving downwards a little fast, so you definitely did the right thing.

Was that canopy a Navigator? That would make sense. A big seven-cell with a ZP top skin and F-111 bottom skin... sounds like a BASE canopy.

- Mac

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>Sounds like your canopy was a victim center-cell stripping.

That's a term I've so far only heard being used when describing a certain undesireable attribute in BASE-canopy deployments. This use of the the term does not refer to actual canopy damage, but rather a deployment where the center cell is 'stripped' out of the container while the other cells are momentarily left in. This causes off-heading openings, which the BASEists are keen to avoid.

Check this page for an in-depth explanation.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

did i put undo stress on the canopy? is there a practical limit on the centrifugal force that can be exerted safely? does this kind of thing happen often?


was it a) prudent or b)simply unavoidable or c)foolish to cut away at 1300?

You have asked several interesting questions.

First, you did not over stress the parachute or cause the malfunction. It sounds like that was an old parachute that should have been retired long ago. A small number of drop zones over extend the use of their student parachutes to save money, while a few others simply don't spend the necessary time to inspect student parachutes for damage.

The rip you reported along the center ribs and top skin is among the most common problems following a seriously hard opening. It is also the point most likely to fail on an old parachute. While this kind of problem is rare, it does happen. While it is usually preventable, it can also develop completely by surprise.

Don't blame yourself for the problem. The drop zone should have been VERY concerned about this failure, and should have immediately grounded every student rig for a complete inspection. That means unpacking the main and actually crawling inside every cell for a visual and tactile inspection. If any problems are found, the parachute should be removed from service until it can be repaired or inspected by the manufacturer. This equipment check shouldn't take more than about 15 minutes per parachute, and it should be included as a regular part of the normal 120 day reserve repack.

Your second questions had to do with your cut-a-way at 1,300 feet. Obviously what you did worked, so don't be upset, but asking the question is certainly appropriate. Now, let me ask a couple of questions... Would you have cut-a-way at 1,000 feet? How about 800 feet? What about 500 feet? Ummm, what about 200 feet?

Another option you didn't mention is a canopy transfer, that is using the reserve and then cutting away. Some student programs discuss this option, some don't. Some include it in the upper levels. In any event, every licensed and experienced skydiver should know about the transfer option, and should consider when, where, and why to use it.

USPA publishes a book called the 2003 Skydivers Information Manual (SIM) that is loaded with great information. The student part of the book recommends a minimum cut-a-way decision altitude of 2,500 feet for a first jump student (Page 31). It also recommends pulling the cut-a-way handle no lower than 1,000 feet (also page 31), although this seems a bit low for a student. The Skydiving Emergencies section of the 2003 SIM lists a minimum suggested cut-a-way altitude of 2,500 feet for students, and 1,800 feet for A-B license holders (Page 102). Those numbers sound reasonable to me. I'm betting your local DZ has a specific "hard deck" of their own.

Ideally, every jumper will have an established procedure for dealing with a partial malfunction, and a defined "hard deck." The goal is to make most of your key decisions on the ground where they can be carefully considered, then when you have a malfunction, you simply need to implement your decision. It doesn't always work that way, but it does help to at least have a set of decision templates for use in those high stress situations.

It sounds like you have very little experience, but many of the people reading this board have lots of experience. Emergency procedures and solutions will vary depending on that experience, so I don't want to limit my discussion to your specific situation.

I have thousands of jumps. My minimum cut-a-way altitude is 1,000 feet, but I'll always try to deal with an issue higher than that. If I have a problem below 1,000 that requires use of the reserve it will be answered with a transfer. Thats my program, here, now. It is based on many thousands of jumps, many cut-a-ways, tons of training, and BASE experience. Your altitudes should generally be higher, and I'm thinking the USPA recommended 2,500 or 1,800 foot level is probably much better. Each skydiver you talk with will have different altitudes depending on their background. Remember, you are not me, and you do not have my experience.

Chat with your instructors. Do what you are told, now. When you have more experience revisit the issue and set your own decision altitudes based on your current experience and the type of equipment you are jumping.

For now, however, have a black and white decision made and stick with it, and I'm strongly suggesting the USPA 2,500 foot altitude for student jumps, then no lower than 1,800 feet after that.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, Tandem, SL, IAD)
S&TA (The Ranch)
Sr. Parachute Rigger
etc.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[ChileRelleno 0]

PDS, you did everything fine, your walking and talking and in the end thats all that counts... GOOD JOB... As you've been told by the rest of these folks its in no way your fault. BSBD

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[pds 0]

first a couple points of clarification in order of importance..
1) yes, i was beered. this entire weekend was one beerable offense after another. you can read the full account in talkback. 13 jumps, 5 cases of beer. if not for the 1caseperjump max, i might be in for more. lol.
2) I was thoroughly debriefed and then some. reason i ask here is obvious, can get second, third, fourth.....one hundreth opinions from those who know more than i. help me analyze my decision and reasoning and let me become even more comfortable than i already am with the idea of jumping out of a not exactly perfectly good airplane. ;-)
3) i have only 22 jumps but when the door opens, i WANT to jump. everytime. as a pilot i am able to draw parallels to flying the canopy wing and i feel like i am home while under canopy. Q: what took me so f*#&$ing long to come home?
grumpy and macaulay, thanks for concurrance.
tom, i will look up transfer. that may have been another alternative.
Q: what are the deployment characteristics of a reserve while under partial canopy? and in a situation where a full cutaway is possibly fatal, (300 feet or so?) would you actually release your main or just use the reserve for added lift?
Thanks guys.

namaste, motherfucker.

[fudd 0]

Quote

[#003366]1,300 is just fine. Cypreses fire at 750'... nearly half the altitude of where you chopped.

[/#003366]The situation would be completly different!
The expert cypress fires at 750' if the rate of decent exceeds 78mph or 35m/sec. At that speed your reserve will open much faster than cutting away a "flying" canopy at 750 when your speed is something like 10mph!!!
Just wanted to point that out so that people understand that cutting away at 750 is DANGEROUS.
At 750 it might be a good idea to just pull the reserve and not cut away, but that is a jugdement call. Would you rather risk a main/reserve entanglement (or deal with a downplane) or would you risk not getting a fully deployd reserve??? Neither is a good solution, but depending on what mal you have, it might be better than doing nothing...
As for your cutaway at 1300' I think you did the right thing. You are alive and not hurt.Good job saving your life Sound like you kept your head cool during the whole thing, and that is what will keep you alive

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[spidermonky 0]

First off, I am also a newbie. So take this with a grain of salt and corrections are welcomed.
About the transfer: Most student gear has a double cutaway system, meaning if you pop the reserve it automatically chops the main. You can see a yellow cable coming off the reserve handle next to the metal reserve cable, this is a second cutaway cable. You may not have one, but ask an instructor or rigger about this. Know your equipment. A transfer may not be possible with your setup.

[pds 0]

you are quite right, i was wearing double cutaway.
my interest in the transfer was for the next time (that is never going to happen, right? ;-.).
Fudd, in retrospect, i would have to say that my controllability check was good. the two previous jumps that day were with this canopy. and as it was a student rig, my goodies are always getting jammed, so after controllability, i have to graba a riser and shift each side. this also takes a few seconds. i was headed for dz throughout this process. no problem. it was after the turn that i felt something awry, immediately.
as i was picking up the reserve, i saw the dbag fall. this leads me to believe that when i broke out of the spiral, the bags centrifugal momentum tore the rib out as the canopy moved away from it. if it came loose at pull, what are the odds that i would have beat it to the ground? just wondering.

namaste, motherfucker.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>Most student gear has a double cutaway system, meaning if you

Definitely not most...

>pop the reserve it automatically chops the main. You can see a
>yellow cable coming off the reserve handle next to the metal reserve
>cable, this is a second cutaway cable.

I have never even heard about such a system!! And here I thought I was pretty well informed about gear... So a few questions to anyone who knows:
-What manufacturers' student gear has this feature?
-Is it something that is always installed or is it an option?
-How does it work?
-You said there was only one yellow cable coming from the reserve handle; How does it cutaway both risers?
-Are there double ended loops on the risers similar to tandem drogue release loops?

If there's more info on the 'Net somewhere, please point me there.

Erno

[indyz 1]

Quote

>Most student gear has a double cutaway system, meaning if you

Definitely not most...

>pop the reserve it automatically chops the main. You can see a
>yellow cable coming off the reserve handle next to the metal reserve
>cable, this is a second cutaway cable.

I have never even heard about such a system!! And here I thought I was pretty well informed about gear... So a few questions to anyone who knows:
-What manufacturers' student gear has this feature?
-Is it something that is always installed or is it an option?
-How does it work?
-You said there was only one yellow cable coming from the reserve handle; How does it cutaway both risers?
-Are there double ended loops on the risers similar to tandem drogue release loops?

If there's more info on the 'Net somewhere, please point me there.

Erno

I believe that Sunrise offers this option. My home dropzone's Wings student rigs have an SOS handle as well as a cutaway handle. A member of my college's skydiving club was quite possibly saved by this a few weeks ago when he had a lineover malfunction. He peeled the cutaway handle and pulled, but not enough to release either riser. He then pulled the silver handle, which in this case completed the cutaway and released his reserve. With a standard cutaway system he could very well have had a fatal two canopy out situation.

IIRC, the rigs have two yellow cables coming from the reserve handle, as well as the reserve ripcord.

I don't recall exactly how the system works, but a double ended loop sounds possible. After another student cutaway this weekend (PC over the nose fouled the slider), the DZO was wandering around looking for more loops. I'm sure if someone PM'ed HeatherB she would pop in and explain it...

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Erno, the SOS system is quite common in the US, and, I believe in Australia, but like you, I have never seen it in Europe.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Of course, the SOS-system. One club in Finland uses that, but I understood the system used there only has one handle.

This system with a cutaway handle and a SOS-handle I haven't heard of.

[pds 0]

double cutaway from my experience is single ring, a release cord for each riser, the reserve release cable is a good 5 inches longer, terminated with a ball ensuring riser release before reserve deployment. to be certain, e/p follows :arch,look,reach,pull, strip (sweep all cables clear and free with right hand), arch, pray.

namaste, motherfucker.

[markbaur 0]

Quote

a double ended loop

This is exactly correct. Like a two-handle drogue release, risers on this student system have 3-ring loops that can be released at either end.

What you get: no harm from out-of-sequence emergency procedures. If the student pulls the cutaway handle, then the reserve ripcord, that's good. But if he pulls just the cutaway handle, the RSL is there as a back-up. And if he pulls in the wrong order, the reserve ripcord is actually a 3-cable SOS handle, which releases the other ends of the main riser 3-ring loops before deploying the reserve.

What you give up: like any SOS system, what you have at 1000 feet is what you'll land with. Pulling just silver still gets you a cutaway first.

Sunpath offers this option on its student Javelins, and I expect most manufacturers will, too.

Mark

[masher 1]

SOS: Single Operating System

You've got just one bright yellow handle. You pull this and you release the main and deploy the reserve.

In Australia, it's compulsory for all student rigs. The idea behind it is that students have less to think about. We already have quite a bit on our plates

PS: I'm still a student, ~20 jumps.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies