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ntrprnr

"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"

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DSE does a camera course too.;)



I didn't know that?! For newbies too?



It's only for newbies. Experienced camera flyers aren't going to learn much from me. Norman Kent has a basic and advanced camera flying course too.

My course starts with 2 hours of ground discussion, a jump, and then we go to the tunnel once the sun goes down. Then more ground time, 2 more jumps. Like the USPA Coach Course, you get some "oops" opportunities and we evaluate how you respond to them.

When you're on the upside of 200 jumps, it seems like a long way off and a meaningless milepost. However, there is a lot to learn, both cognitive and instinctive. When you reach the downside of 200 jumps, you'll quickly realize why the recommendation is referenced by most everyone.

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USPA's "recommendations", combined with applicable FAR's, already are the "industry standard" for skydiving in the US.



It's amazing that you had to point that out.
On behalf of the smarter youngsters out there, thanks.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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My thoughts were more for S/L jumpers, you would get a lot of their faces and comments from climb out, strut & deployment to ground.



Not only that, but if you are mounting your radio also nearby (in the same chest-mount?) - I could see this making a decent "documentary" of the canopy descent, vis-a-vis response to, and even instructor review and on-going evaluation/consideration of honing of their radio instruction even.

I think the idea sounds quite interesting/intriguing. Keep us posted as to how it goes - or better yet, add something on this we can all follow in the instructors forum as well. This is now starting to get quite a bit off the beaten path of the OP & this thread.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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I took my own pics on my First Tandem.:D

The TM in training needed some dead weight.B| By Then I had over 1000 jumps but ZERO camera experience.

Scratch head, scratch butt, came up with a plan discussed it with my bud the Tandem trainee and my other bud the video dude.

This was pre digital but my 35mm was a simple point and shoot and had a auto wind. Stuffed the camera in my jumpsuit.

After the droque went out We took out our camera took closeups of ourself , the TM and got some nice shots of the video dude. Put the camera away before the trap door opened and had a nice standup close to the peas.

WARNING: Do not try this without permission of the TM and until you have a minimum of 200 jumps. Like the SIM says.

Fun tandem, price was right (Zero). :D:D

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Could you be a little more specific about all of these extensive problems due to people not following the recommendations in the SIM?


Do your own research. It's a great way to learn.
I'd suggest starting with camera flying, looking into wing suiting, moving on the high-performance landings and really getting deep into emergency procedures. You may discover extensive problems caused by not knowing and/or ignoring that information in the SIM.

You could short-cut a little by researching DZ.com threads. Incident forum would get you started.



I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license. By comparison, a B-License holder can be trained to be a coach to another jumper but is regarded as unqualified to jump with a camera.

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What do you think those recommendations really mean and what are they for? Do you know how those recommendations came about?


The recommendation wasn't written with small format cameras used by jumpers for their personal POV recordings of their own jumps in mind; it was written with professional camera flyers using larger, heavier equipment in mind in which the main purpose of the jump would be to photograph or record other jumpers.

The requirement of a C-License to add a camera to a jump the jumper would be doing anyway is extreme, which is best evidenced by the fact that everybody misquotes the recommendation as merely 200 jumps because that sounds more reasonable.

These are the facts:

-- There is no BSR or FAA regulation that requires a C-License or 200 jumps to jump with a camera.

-- There has not been one fatality by a skydiver using a small format camera that was caused by the camera.


It's not accidents, fatalities, or injuries that's fueling this debate - it's "oh, the horror" someone posted a video on their Facebook page!
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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- There has not been one fatality by a skydiver using a small format camera that was caused by the camera.



Been at least one base jumper because of it and a good deal of close calls to skydivers, just look at the list in video forums. So it's a matter of time as long as people keep thinking as you do.

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The recommendation wasn't written with small format cameras used by jumpers for their personal POV recordings of their own jumps in mind; it was written with professional camera flyers using larger, heavier equipment



Hey it's small, no big deal


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It's not accidents, fatalities, or injuries that's fueling this debate - it's "oh, the horror" someone posted a video on their Facebook page!



Plain and simple your wrong on that, people are point out stupid actions of people who think it's small no big deal and posting the proof on facebook, all the info in the sims was written in blood and is there for good reason. If you think other wise and some asshat dzo is will to allow you to do that , go ahead and if you frap in or bust your ass, don't come crying here about or asking for jumpers to help pay your medical bills, also don't be surprised to read posts saying "we tried to tell XYZ dumdass", there is a whole forum full of people who didn't heed the lessons of those before.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license. By comparison, a B-License holder can be trained to be a coach to another jumper but is regarded as unqualified to jump with a camera.

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~ and why don't ya tell us how many jumps YOU have, the licenses and instructional rating YOU hold & the actual 'hands on' experiences YOU'VE had over the years personally dealing with cameras and the problems they can lead to?


...oh yeah that's right, we've HAD this discussion. :D











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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If this were a real DZ, someone like me would tell someone like you that you haven't a clue what you're talking about, you haven't got the experience to be commenting one it, and you'd look a whole lot smarter if you appeared to listen more than you talk.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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If this were a real DZ, someone like me would tell someone like you that you haven't a clue what you're talking about, you haven't got the experience to be commenting one it, and you'd look a whole lot smarter if you appeared to listen more than you talk.


So, I'm guessing you think the same thing of the USPA BOD then?

You know I'm hitting it pretty close when the personal attacks start.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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-- There has not been one fatality by a skydiver using a small format camera that was caused by the camera.



I am sorry, but you are wrong. Last year in Sweden we had an accident where a skydiver (probably) stalled his canopy at around 600m and when the canopy recovered, something got stuck around his GoPro. Eventually, he cut away but as he cutaway, the GoPro was ripped away from his helmet (it was never found) and it probably knocked him unconscious as he never pulled his reserve. His AAD activated a little below 200m (when he reached 35m/s) but his reserve never had time to inflate.

Have you ever seen those knobs they have on boats that are designed to make it easy to attach ropes to them? Now, look at the average GoPro mount. Dont tell me that you dont see the similarities!

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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license. By comparison, a B-License holder can be trained to be a coach to another jumper but is regarded as unqualified to jump with a camera.



There is a thread for you, it is called "Small Format Camera "Incident" list" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693;search_string=small%20camera%20incident;#3894693 The fatality will be added there once I have had a chance to do a proper translation of the Swedish incident report.

regards,
Stefan

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-- There has not been one fatality by a skydiver using a small format camera that was caused by the camera.



I am sorry, but you are wrong. Last year in Sweden we had an accident where a skydiver (probably) stalled his canopy at around 600m and when the canopy recovered, something got stuck around his GoPro. Eventually, he cut away but as he cutaway, the GoPro was ripped away from his helmet (it was never found) and it probably knocked him unconscious as he never pulled his reserve. His AAD activated a little below 200m (when he reached 35m/s) but his reserve never had time to inflate.


Well, I'm interested to read the report since no one around here has heard of it.

What did the number of jumps have to do with the accident? Couldn't this have happened to anyone regardless of experience.


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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license. By comparison, a B-License holder can be trained to be a coach to another jumper but is regarded as unqualified to jump with a camera.



There is a thread for you, it is called "Small Format Camera "Incident" list" http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693;search_string=small%20camera%20incident;#3894693 The fatality will be added there once I have had a chance to do a proper translation of the Swedish incident report.


You mean DSE's thread of non-fatal incidents of people who obviously have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time trying to blame a camera for their own stupidity.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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Well, I'm interested to read the report since no one around here has heard of it.



The report is in swedish, so it is understandably that it didn't get much attention here. The report is available from http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50053191/Rapport%20dnr0919%20kompr%20format.pdf but it is in Swedish so you'll have to translate it yourself.
The jumper had 362 jumps.

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What did the number of jumps have to do with the accident? Couldn't this have happened to anyone regardless of experience.



In this case, we will never know, but you asked for a fatality involving a small format camera and I gave you one.

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You mean DSE's thread of non-fatal incidents of people who obviously have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time trying to blame a camera for their own stupidity.



So, whats your suggestion? Ask people to show that they can walk and chew gum before we allow them to jump? Personally, I think that DSE's thread is a clear sign that a camera adds distraction that a low jump number person is still not capable of handling. They endanger themselves _and_ other people in the process and I dont think it is reasonable to ignore that simply because some people can keep their heads cooler than others.

regards,
Stefan

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You mean DSE's thread of non-fatal incidents of people who obviously have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time trying to blame a camera for their own stupidity.



[:/][:/]
*shaking head*
I just hope you don't have to learn the hard way.
The easy way is just not working.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>You mean DSE's thread of non-fatal incidents of people who obviously have
>difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time trying to blame a camera for
>their own stupidity.

Yep. And just think - every single one of those people was 100% convinced that they were just fine, that their superior skills could handle any minor incidents with an easy to use camera. They were all as right as you are.

>What did the number of jumps have to do with the accident?

He didn't have enough experience in the bank.

Think of it this way. With every jump you make, you deposit a little bit of skill and experience in the bank. They are generally small deposits; you learned that your altimeter sometimes sticks and how to realize that, or you had line twists and got out of it, or someone cut you off and you successfully avoided it, or you had a momentary PC in tow and it cleared. With all those things you learned a little bit.

Now you stick a camera on your head. 99% of the time your jump goes OK and you can add a little more experience to that account in the bank.

But then there's that 1% of the time when you might have to make a very big withdrawal. You may have a PC/camera entanglement and have to decide whether or not to dump your reserve into the mess. Or you may be intent on filming that lowtimer 2-way and not realize that anything's wrong until the first guy's cypres fires. Or that fun sunset 6-way goes a little awry and you get sucked into a funnel - and land on someone's back from 20 feet above the formation. Or that tether you added to your camera (because you're so clever that you figured out a way to not lose it if your mount breaks) starts bashing the camera into your face when your mount breaks - and then gets wrapped around your slider when you deploy.

At that point you better pray that there's enough experience and training in that bank account to cover your debt - because if there isn't you are going to end up in the hospital (or, like this guy, dead.)

How long does it take to build up that account? Some people can do it in 200 jumps, some people in 500. Some people build it up faster with good training and some build it up more slowly by osmosis.

But I guarantee you that at 50 jumps you won't have enough to cover a big withdrawal. If you have to write it - that check's going to bounce.

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The biggest danger introducing a camera to your jumping is not snags (although snags are a very real danger, especially the standard gopro helmut mount, IMHO)

The real danger newbies especially may not realize is how much the mere fact of having a camera on you with the intent of recording something DISTRACTS you from your skydive.

The more you jump, the more experience you will get with how often the unexpected unexpectedly happens. (hey, where did that guy come from....whoah, was that a thermal ... wait, did the wind suddenly shift... I got a mal... wow, i didn't know I opened so low....)

Older, wiser jumpers learn to make allowances for the unexpected -- all those little things that can actually kill you, but no one ever had the chance to tell you about yet, because they are so rare or unexpected.

Putting on a camera may or may not be distracting depending on how you are using it. If you are trying to shot something or keep something in frame -- it is distracting. If you are thinking "how cool is this looking" you are distracted.

If the unexpected happens while you are distracted you and others could die.

This is the key issue with newbies wearing cameras.

And experienced skydivers know all too well how easily it is to become distracted and how deadly that can be.

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Well, I'm interested to read the report since no one around here has heard of it.



The report is in swedish, so it is understandably that it didn't get much attention here. The report is available from http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50053191/Rapport%20dnr0919%20kompr%20format.pdf but it is in Swedish so you'll have to translate it yourself.
The jumper had 362 jumps.



Wow, that was an impressive skydiving accident report. A great argument for the benefit of digital and audible altimeters, besides the data from the CYPRES, the jumper also had an N3 and a ProTrack.

The "theory" presented in the report, because they admit they can't confirm exactly what happened, is that the jumper pulled the slider down behind his head and then did a steep spiraling descent before aggressively leveling off out of the turn. It is believed that the aggressive maneuver caused the risers to twist spinning the jumper's face into the slider causing the GoPro to catch on the slider probably disorienting the jumper and blocking his vision. He managed to cut-away (1,150 ft) which also pulled the GoPro mount off his Bonehead Optik. The mount was held on by two screws, one of the screws was pulled out of the helmet and the mounting plate broke apart from the other screw.

The jumper apparently tumbled out of control and couldn't pull/find his soft reserve handle. The CYPRES fired (635 ft) while the jumper was on his back which likely delayed the opening of the reserve. The jumper hit the ground upright under an opening canopy at about a 4000 fpm impact speed. The jumper is believed to have been conscious at impact because he had put his hands up on the reserve risers. The jumper died at the hospital of blunt force trauma from the impact.

The jumper had gotten his A-License in June of 2009 and had 362 jumps at the time of the accident. In 2010 he did the majority of his jumps on a Spectre 170 before downsizing to a Lotus 135 at 188 jumps. He did 14 jumps on the Lotus and ended 2010 with 202 jumps total.

He then purchased a new Mirage G4 with a Sabre2 135, an Optimum 143, an RSL, and a CYPRES Expert. From February, 2011 to the accident in July, 2011, he did 160 jumps with this rig. He earned his C-License in March, 2011.

The jumper's 232nd jump was his first with the GoPro and it's believed that the majority of his jumps since then (130) were done with it.

The G4 was equipped with an RSL but it was not connected per SFF guidelines for jumping with a camera. Ironically, the RSL likely would have saved his life in this instance.

The report also focuses on the soft reserve handle, due to the disorientation the jumper experienced he may not have been able to locate it.


I apologize if any of this is in error. I only just today learned Swedish.


This jumper effectively did everything correctly and met all the appropriate "recommendations" for camera jumping.

Obviously there's still a lot here to learn from:

Should sliders be brought down behind jumpers heads if they're wearing a camera?

Does the disconnected RSL/Skyhook recommendation for camera jumpers need to be reviewed?

Would a D-Ring reserve handle have helped the jumper manually deploy his reserve?
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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I took my own pics on my First Tandem.:D

The TM in training needed some dead weight.B|



You have more nerve than I have!
:D:D:D



Hi POPs

We both had handles, we both had 1k jumps ea and a free jump is free jump.

I sure as hell wouldn'y do it with someone I didn't know ,

R.
One Jump Wonder

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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license.

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So I take it you are rethinking your prior statement?



No! Do you think this incident should cause a ban on pulling the slider down the risers?
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license.

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So I take it you are rethinking your prior statement?



No! Do you think this incident should cause a ban on pulling the slider down the risers?





:D:D You just keep thinkin' Butch...that's what you're good at. ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I've done the research, and there is not one verifiable incident that justifies an arbitrary banning of small format cameras by jumpers with less than a C-license.

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So I take it you are rethinking your prior statement?



No! Do you think this incident should cause a ban on pulling the slider down the risers?





:D:D You just keep thinkin' Butch...that's what you're good at. ;)



Okay, does this one verifiable incident justify banning C-License holders from using cameras?

Does it justify requiring camera flyers to use an RSL?

Don't worry, just leave the thinking to me.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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