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pkasdorf

Should a skydiver well known for his risky behavior (performing well above his skills) and/or disdain for safety be grounded?

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To me it is clearly yes. And I thought that the vast majority of skydivers agreed with this concept. But the answers to a thread titled:

Is it usual practice to prevent a skydiver of participating in a boogie if he (or she) is known for having risky behavior?

made me think that many people (many more than I thought) think that skydiving should not put this kind of limits. Let's see how the voting develops!



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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At the DZ where I did AFF, you got grounded for the day to think about your behaviour if you did something unsafe. I think no matter how experienced you were that was the case.
When I look at the difference in bahaviour the people there have to other DZ's I've been to, it is obvious what advantage that has for my DZ. Those people ARE safer, and more aware of everyone else in the sky with them.

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Pretty short list of options.

I think people who are simply 'grounded' will just end up leaving and jumping somewhere else where they're unknown and can get away with stuff.

People that really are 'dangerous' should be worked with, rather then grounded.

The solution to dangerous activity is education, not punishment.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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People that really are 'dangerous' should be worked with, rather then grounded.

The solution to dangerous activity is education, not punishment.


Almost what I was going to say, except I would ground them for a day to get their attention:o!

I say ground, counsel and educate.

If they can't handle that then "Adios!", the safety of the majority overwhelms the minority.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

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People that really are 'dangerous' should be worked with, rather then grounded.

The solution to dangerous activity is education, not punishment.


Almost what I was going to say, except I would ground them for a day to get their attention:o!

I say ground, counsel and educate.

If they can't handle that then "Adios!", the safety of the majority overwhelms the minority.


All right:

1) Ground them
2) Educate them
3) If they can't handle then "Adiós"

And the first point is the first point. And particularly in a boogie there usually is no time for the second one. As you say, the safety of the majority overwhelms the minority.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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There is always time for the second one (counseling)... ALWAYS!
Even at a boogie... Especially at a Boogie!
No one should ever be so busy as not to have time to encourage safety in the air or on the ground.
Most times a little counseling is all they need, perhaps with the threat of expulsion if at a Boogie.
<>
Depending on the severity of the action it really should be
(1) counsel, (2) ground,counsel and educate (3) expulsion.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

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All right:

1) Ground them
2) Educate them
3) If they can't handle then "Adiós"



I disagree. The minute you go for (3), you've lost them. They're all the more likely to just go somewhere else where they're unknown and do the exact same thing, only without uspervision or guidance.

Guidance and instruction are much more effective.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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All right:

1) Ground them
2) Educate them
3) If they can't handle then "Adiós"



I disagree. The minute you go for (3), you've lost them. They're all the more likely to just go somewhere else where they're unknown and do the exact same thing, only without uspervision or guidance.

Guidance and instruction are much more effective.

_Am



How much education is needed? You went through steps one and two. Number two doesn't work. you still do not go for step number three because he could go to another DZ? That doesn't sound reasonable at all. You are jeopardizing safety in your DZ. If you are concerned about other DZ's (I could agree with that but I am sure that screams of protest would reach as far away as the moon), pass the word. In fact, USPA does something like that ("The US Parachute Assn (USPA) can ban a jumper, which means he can't jump at member dropzones" Wendy W)



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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I've only seen the USPA revoke someone's membership a few times in over 25 years of membership. It would almost certainly not have been done in your friend's case.

Wendy W.

Edit:
the most creative punishment I've heard of was posted here. The DZ owner grounded someone for a month for doing something really stupid, and then told them that if they wanted to come back, they had to BE at the drop zone, watching everyone else jump, for the whole month's worth of weekend days.

Nothing like the power of peers thinking you're an idiot.

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I agree with Chile et. al. of:

1) Ground them
2) Educate them
3) If they can't handle then "Adiós"

With a small interchange of possibly talk with them before grounding to get "their" side of things. Some people just do not know all of what they think they know.

Further, there is always time for education. Granted it may not be well received, but you don't know without trying. If they are going to stick to their unsafe ways, by all means ground them.

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They're all the more likely to just go somewhere else where they're unknown and do the exact same thing



Maybe so...

However I do not want to put my life in some asshole's hands if he refuses to play be the rules that keep us alive.

Yes, that jerk will probably move to a different DZ and do the same stupid stuff there. BUT - at most DZ's whenever someone new shows up, they are subjected to a little closer scrutiny untill their skill set has been determined regardless of how great they say they are.

(would you let Joe Blow on your 6 way headdown if you didn't know him from Adam)

This is a self regulated sport and that is what makes it so great. Eventually this hypothetical fool will run out of DZ's to endanger people at.

I'm off my soapbox now, thanks for listening

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Should you take into account whether the behaviour represents a risk to others? If, for example, a person was at risk of bouncing due to consistently going low, then the behaviour may really only pose a risk to that person. The DZ management may well be more than a little concerned about the negative publicity from a fatality, and fellow jumpers could remind the individual involved of such a possible implication and that there may be individuals who care for them and would rather that they continued breathing, but apart from that...

Is skydiving about personal responsibility and freedom, or should skydiving be like the 'real world', where others determine what is good and bad for us??

Just playing Devil's advocate.

The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat.

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Is skydiving about personal responsibility and freedom, or should skydiving be like the 'real world', where others determine what is good and bad for us??

Just playing Devil's advocate.



My freedom ends when it affects somebody else, as simple as that! And if I don't have personal responsibility, somebody has to make me aware of it. And if I still do not have it, there are things I cannot do...



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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After 3 days 74 Dropzone members have voted which is quite nice (I haven't seen polls with more than 200 votes except the home page ones). Let's wait for some more votes and opinions.

In the meantime and by the way, looking at the profiles of those who wrote replies to this poll and the previous thread, one sees that no really experienced skydiver (1000+ jumps) is against putting restrictions in a way or another.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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And if you notice the people with less then 300 jumps or so are those that are most likely to say kick them. I only see one person that replied with more then 1000 jumps, and shes just getting back into the sport.

After building up jumps and running in to weird experiences, off landings, and attending one of the largest boogies in the world my opinions changed vs what they were a year or so ago. Time in the sport and building up experience can help you see its not such a black and white picture, there are a lot of grey colors out there. A jumper that might go balls out at a 182 DZ might be terrified on a Casa load with 33 other canopies in the air and close to them. That type of behaivor change is hard to perdict and if you stoped the jumper from showing up to the boogie based on a reputation they might never have that experience to change their behaivior.

Education is the key. If you even think about grounding them before you have spent a lot of time educating them you have forever turned them off from learning. I've had my fair share of risky behaivor before. I've had in my about 450 jumps: 1 building strike, 1 ripped canopy, 1 sprained ankle, 1 bloody arm from landing in a gravel driveway, lots of scares on downwind landings, 1 CRW wrap, saw 1 friend have a broken leg, saw 1 person die from medical conditions at the DZ, saw one person do a highspeed landing that should have killed them when they bounced in the swoop. Every time someone either educated me on how to prevent that type of action from happening again or I educated others by serving as an example to them.

Ther are enough dropzones around that if I get grounded at the one, I can just go to another. But since everytime myself or others does something that is considered by others as stupid, some one is there to educated everyone else or more recently I'm the one out there saying do you know what you did and how you can avoid this again? This keeps everyone safer.

If they are having canopy issues put a copy of the Skydive AZ canopy school manual infront of them and have them read it befoe their next jump. Toss the Big Air Sportz manual there too if they are some one that does high speed approaches. Make them tell you things about canopy flight and how to do certian things before they jump. Go up with them (if your experienced enough to, otherwise find someone that is) and do a clear and pull at altitude, fly with them and have them practice the exercises that they read about. Critque them. Give them honest feedback and watch them improve themself. Formal training at a school is the best if one is availble.

Telling someone that they are not flying right and will hook in just makes the person want to prove you wrong and with out the education on how to safely improve they will become a self fulfilling problem.

It should be:

Education
Education
Education
Temp grounding while still teaching them.
Temp grounding while having someone else teach them just incase they don't understand your teaching method or content
Longer grounding while having alot of good teachers teach them and talk to them on the issues they are having and why others are worried
Finally if they stop listening to education ask them to take a long term grounding while they consider their behavior and see if they can lower their risk factors.

At no point should there be a preemtive grounding just because they might do something on this jump or a jump in the future. (Cases where sucide is a possibility are totally different)

Every student is a potential danger to me on the ground after landing since they don't have the knowledge to avoid collisions yet, but that does'nt mean we need to ground them. Another grey line there....
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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OK well let me chime in.

I have 2,500 jumps...

1. Educate them.
If they don't listen...

2. Ground them and educate them. Start with a Day, then a weekend, finally a Mth.
If they still don't listen...

3. Kick them off the DZ.
I would rather have them die, or kill someone else at another DZ.

I would also call the other DZ's to let them know they are grounded at mine, and why.

A dangerous person can not only kill themselves, but also others.
Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I hear what you are saying Ron.....
However, I am not a DZO, or a S&TA, hell I'm not even an instructor.

I, like you, have seen people do many things that I am uncomfortable with, both at 'home' and also on my many travels.
It simply is none of my business to 'kick off' someone from a DZ....All I can do is educate them, (which sounds easy but is not simple for casual jumpers like ourselves to do), or simply avoid being on loads the person concerned.

I'm all for keeping people alive, but sooner or later you have to back off and let them do their own thing.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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True,

I am not an S&TA, or a DZO.

I am an instructor, but I can also, and so can anyone else walk up to the DZO, S&TA, or DZ manager and let them know how you feel, and your fears. If the DZO, S&TA, or DZ manager is worth a damn...they will adress it. If not, look at another DZ to jump at.

I am all for education first, and "giving the boot as a Last resort.

But you have to think of his safety, your safety, the saftey of your friends, the safety of everyone.

If someone is unsafe, teach them....If they stay unsafe...Ground them...If they still won't listen/learn.
Boot them. They are not going to listen, don't risk anyone else's saftey.

Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I am all for education first, and "giving the boot as a Last resort.

We are agreed then Ron....
Peace.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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And if you notice the people with less then 300 jumps or so are those that are most likely to say kick them. I only see one person that replied with more then 1000 jumps, and shes just getting back into the sport.



There are more in the previous thread as I said "...looking at the profiles of those who wrote replies to this poll and the previous thread,..." I agree that it is not just between black and white but it appears that you accept much darker shades of grey than I do. Anyway there are replies to your post perfectly suited that very well represent my thinking. I am not against education, I am all for it, I just draw the line much closer than you do because I cannot help thinking that other skydivers lives, including mine, are at risk. And it is not solved by just not getting into the same load because I do not necessarily know everybody who is jumping with me.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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people with less then 300 jumps or so are those that are most likely to say kick them. I only see one person that replied with more then 1000 jumps, and shes just getting back into the sport.


Yes, she's getting back into the sport, but note she didn't say ground them as a first resort. Or even second resort. Also, she didn't vote.
Grounding is mainly useful when you are the only dropzone within driving distance. That way the person really is limited from jumping by the grounding action. Otherwise, you have to get other DZs in the area to go along, which requires spectacularly dangerous behavior. And that ain't likely.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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