Two out

[Jessica 0]

So USPA says, in its ISP, to steer the front (in a biplane) or larger (in a side-by-side) canopy using toggles in the event of a two-out situation.

Extremely experienced jumpers whom I trust, along with my own intuition, tell me that unstowing toggles on a two-out is a very bad idea, and that even first-jump students should not be instructed thusly. Thoughts?

Part two.

In discussions with said very experienced jumper/instructors, I have been informed that they, as experienced jumpers, would not attempt to land two canopies, as the USPA recommends, but would instead force separation and/or a downplane and cut the main away. Thoughts?

Skydiving is for cool people only

[billvon 2,384]

>Extremely experienced jumpers whom I trust, along with my own
> intuition, tell me that unstowing toggles on a two-out is a very bad
> idea, and that even first-jump students should not be instructed
> thusly. Thoughts?

If you have released your toggles you must steer with them. This often happens, since people do not look behind them after opening (i.e. as their AAD is firing) and release the toggles before they realize they have a two-out. If possible, it's better to leave both sets of toggles stowed.

>In discussions with said very experienced jumper/instructors, I have
> been informed that they, as experienced jumpers, would not
> attempt to land two canopies, as the USPA recommends, but would
> instead force separation and/or a downplane and cut the main away.

If you have CRW training, this is pretty straightforward. If you do not, it's a lot safer to leave them alone if they will land you safely. I've seen at least two instances of people cutting away from two-out situations and having very nasty problems.

[bobsoutar 0]

[Thoughts?]

Not your day so far and not made any better if the two serarate and go into a downplane. Safest option would be to chop the main and land your reserve.

[falxori 0]

Quote

>In discussions with said very experienced >jumper/instructors, I have been informed that >they, as experienced jumpers, would not attempt >to land two canopies, as the USPA recommends, >but would instead force separation and/or a >downplane and cut the main away. Thoughts?

you mean to force a separation both in bi-plane and in side by side ?
as far as i know you're supposed to handle it VERY carefully and only if you have a few feet between them cut away.
i can imagine "helping" them apart if they're side by side but is it wise (or too risky even?) to do that on a bi-plane situation?
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

If you have released your toggles you must steer with them.

Bill, can you explain why this is the case?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,384]

>Bill, can you explain why this is the case?

1. You cannot restow them.
2. It takes more deflection of a rear riser to turn a canopy than it takes deflection of a toggle, and you want to mess with the (hopefully stable) configuration as little as possible.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Not your day so far and not made any better if the two serarate and go into a downplane. Safest option would be to chop the main and land your reserve.

Not necessarily true. I have experimented w/ 2 canopy out scenarios. W/ a PD-170 and a Safire 189 out, they transitioned to a side-by-side w/o input from me. I could fly the combintaion around and they were very stable, even in gusty, turbulent conditions. I put them into a downplane, using rear risers and toggles (seperate times), and could not keep them in a downplane. They would return to a side-by-side. I'm sure I put in enough input because on one attempt to maintain a downplane, they came out of the downplane into a side-by-side, flying backwards. Both canopies had 180 line twists. I was able to put them back into a downplane and a foward flying side-by-side. If your main and reserve are compatable and behaving in a bi-plane or side-by-side, I would recommend not risking an entanglement by cutting away the main.

For in-compatable main and reserves (and I'm not totally sure what that means, yet) it is a toss up between the risk of entanglement and the risk of the pair downplaning at low altitude.

I would like to see more research on dual deployments. The only formal test jumps I have read about involved large, similar canopies, aimed at a student 2-out situation.

I had (intentionally) a PD-170 and a Stiletto 97 fly great together in a two-out situation and a Safire 189 and a Stiletto 97 immediately downplane, then entange. Chopping the Stiletto 97 resulted in an entanglement.

I believe compatability between mains and reserves is a complicated question involving wingloading, fabric, planform, line length, line trim, and which canopy deploys first.

Hook

[faulknerwn 36]

Quote

>
If you have CRW training, this is pretty straightforward. If you do not, it's a lot safer to leave them alone if they will land you safely. I've seen at least two instances of people cutting away from two-out situations and having very nasty problems.

Thing is though - most 2 canopy out situations are from AAD fires. In the case of a Cypres fire, even though I'm experienced at CRW, if the canopies are stable I'll land them like that. Purely because I'm already frigging low, and I'm not about to muck around. If I had more altitude, I would separate them. But not below a grand unless they started misbehaving badly.

I pretty much agree with the PD report on the subject.

[slotperfect 7]

My personal choice:

1) Check altitude
2) Ensure the two are not entangled with one another in any way
3) Leave the brakes stowed on both canopies
4) Steer them to a side-by-side using rear risers
5) Check altitude
6) Above 1000 Feet, cutaway the main

Once again, a personal choice.

Arrive Safely

John

[darkwing 4]

I believe data more than I believe "experts" who are guessing. Hooknswoop actually has some. I also read a report some time ago that was based on actual in-air trials. That stuff I believe.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Hooknswoop 19]

Now that my Sidewinder and PC-101 are on-line, I'll do some more 2-out test jumps and post the video.

Hook

[Michele 1]

A two out scenario scares me terribly.

Question here about landing with two out (leaving the cut/not cut issue alone for a moment).

How do you land it? No flare and PLF as best as you can? Assuming this is Perris (tons of open area), and assuming wind is not taking you into obstacles, would it be better to just drift with the wind and take the downwinder, or steer into the wind?

I swear, this is the scariest scenario for me to contemplate...Thanks, Jess, for bringing it here so I can learn.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Scoby 0]

I asked my instructors that when I took AFF. They said that with student canopies that are behaving (biplare or side-by-side), the thing to do it not try to steer much if you can help it and then prepare to PLF. With 400+ square feet of canopy overhead, you'd stand a great chance of landing unhurt.

[Jessica 0]

Quote

With 400+ square feet of canopy overhead, you'd stand a great chance of landing unhurt.

Unless you fly through power lines or a barbed-wire fence because you're not steering.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Sonic 0]

If you have 2 out with brakes stowed, should you steer using the outside risers (ie. left riser on left canopy and right riser on right canopy), or only use the risers on one canopy. The first option seems the most natural to me.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[jceman 1]

Michele,

Lynn had a two out situation around her 54th jump -- doing a two-way with the DZO's wife, still using rental gear, took it down to low for the FXC, usual story. I knew things weren't kosher when I saw her opening below me. As soon as the main was open, I saw this wide white ribbon flying behind her and realized that it was her reserve bridle and as she turned, the reserve deployed.

She immediately guided the canopies into a side by side configuration and cut the main away and safely landed her reserve.

You handled your first emergency well, no reason to think you wouldn't handle a two out as and decisively well as Lynn did.

Oh yeah, both she and Mrs. DZO caught eight kinds of hell for letting the situation develop in the first place.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[Scoby 0]

Quote

Unless you fly through power lines or a barbed-wire fence because you're not steering.

Yep, those are the only situations in which we were advised to try to steer. Luckily for us desert jumpers, there aren't too many of those kinds of obstacles to hit. We were told to steer with the rear risers of the front canopy in the case of a biplane. For side-by-side, it's outside rear risers (right rear of the right canopy and left rear of the left). Does that sound reasonable?

[Hooknswoop 19]

I would recommend landing what you have, Bi-plane or Side-by-side, obviously chop in a downplane situation.

Steering a bi-plane is simple enough, use the rear risers of the lead canopy. Make only small inputs and the trailing canopy will "follow the leader". Since the brakes are not released you can't use them to flare with. The trailing canopy will be acting like a brake, sitting way back because the nose is hitting the tail of the lead canopy. If both canopies are in brakes, and too small, it should be a very soft landing.

For a side-by-side (who came up with the names for this stuff anyway?) I recommend steering with the rear risers of the dominant (more over your head, most likely the main) canopy. Turns away from the other canopy should be especially gentle so as not to put yourself into a downplane. turns into the other canopy sholdn't present a problem, as the turn will keep the ends cells pushed together.

I wathed a biplane after a very low pull/cypres fire. The jumper released the brakes on the reserve (trail canopy in the bi-plane) and spiraled down after the free-bag. I couldn't believe it worked out and the jumper walked away. How the jumper lost altitude awareness from a 6k H & P I'll never know.

Best advice I have is to avoid the situation entirely, pull at a reasonable altitude.

Hook

[dterrick 0]

Quote

We were told to steer with the rear risers of the front canopy in the case of a biplane. For side-by-side, it's outside rear risers (right rear of the right canopy and left rear of the left). Does that sound reasonable?

...it does to me. then again it's been months since I've watched the 'Cutaway' video circulating at our DZ. Having chopped and landed a 24' round on a windy day (safely) off DZ yet seen others with less good Karma than I (must have) had not so fortunate, it DOES make me wonder if I know this stuff 'COLD' as in - no hesitation this is what I MUST do with the gear I own-

I don't jump an AAD (yet) so a 2 out is not an issue (welllll, much less so) unless I forget the Mantra of "look Red grab red, look silver grab silver, do what's RIGHT and then what's LEFT over". Still, I've seen FXC fires but never with 2 squares - methinks that is one of the main reasons our DZO has maintained round reserves and a TAS on student gear - if you get caught out with a burbled p/c at low alt (as I did but not low enough) and don't clear the main before an FXC fire then you have 'extra' lift rather than 'extra, but unpredictable, drive'. Yes, we were taught to PLF. Yes, I did, sucessfully on jump #20. No, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything - in fact it strengthened my resolve as a 'knowledgable' skydiver at that point where I could only wonder if I would 'do the right thing' when That jump eventually came for me.

Don't fear your first Cutaway. Embrace it, but never chase it - your time will come in due course and you WILL know when it is time. Trust your insructors. Read and UNDERSTAND your PIM's (SIM's) and why the authors wrote them as they did. Trust yourself to know that you KNOW as long as you have given your ALL to learning how to save YOURSELF in EVERY lesson you've taken.

Then, and most important, never forget that attitude. ...and with credit to dropzone.com for keeping safety and training in the forefront of my mind even in the non-jumping months of the Great White North.


-one of the 'Daves'
'...do you know me?' ask the Kids in the Hall

[Jessica 0]

Quote

I don't jump an AAD (yet) so a 2 out is not an issue (welllll, much less so) unless I forget the Mantra of "look Red grab red, look silver grab silver, do what's RIGHT and then what's LEFT over".

The only two-out I've every personally witnessed was a guy who had a PC in tow and went straight for silver. No AAD activation.

Quote

-one of the 'Daves'
'...do you know me?' ask the Kids in the Hall

Are you Dave "Foley" Terrick?! I have your autograph!

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Michele 1]

Quote

You handled your first emergency well, no reason to think you wouldn't handle a two out as and decisively well as Lynn did. [Wink]

Jack, thanks. As the saying goes, "from your lips to God's ears"...

HnS, thanks for the clear directions. I know this stuff, from my FJC, but it never hurts to get your opinion...sometimes I have a hard time imagining it, because I've only seen it on video with two very different sized canopies...suffice it to say they were not playing nice with each other.

Appreciate the advice, and as Dterrick said, keeping this kind of stuff in front of us and available for discussion is always a reason for appreciation...thanks, HH!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[dterrick 0]

Quote

Are you Dave "Foley" Terrick?! I have your autograph!

...my guitar gently weeps for the fact that I am not, indeed, the same Dave. I am a Dave 'T' not the Dave 'F' you suspect . ... but perhaps you have my pen? my pen? you have my pen!! STOP HER she has my PEN

- yet another Dave, but the only one on my DZ! Would you like MY autograph?!?

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[tombuch 0]

Quote

I believe data more than I believe "experts" who are guessing. Hooknswoop actually has some. I also read a report some time ago that was based on actual in-air trials. That stuff I believe.

Read the actual report. It has some interesting detail. It can be easily found under the Education link on PerformanceDesigns.com, at [/url]http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp[url] It was available on pia.com as well, but I don't have that direct link handy.

Hey, here's a thought...check out the very cool information on BOTH Performancedesigns.com and pia.com. The dual square report is just one of many interesting things available.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[falxori 0]

Quote

For side-by-side, it's outside rear risers (right rear of the right canopy and left rear of the left)

Quote

For a side-by-side (who came up with the names for this stuff anyway?) I recommend steering with the rear risers of the dominant (more over your head, most likely the main) canopy.

so which one is it ? (or is it one of those things where there is not "right" way?)
and, if the toggles are unstowed, does it change the answer ?
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[skr 1]

A few months ago I sat through the ground school part
of an AFF certification course that Rick Horn gave here
in Colorado, and I asked him about that.

Unstowing the brakes with both out seemed like a really
bad idea - you are taking a touchy situation and making
it even more touchy.

He said that shouldn't be in there, it was a mistaken copy
and paste from some possible moves an experienced jumper
might think about. (He also said the maximum performance
turn one way and then the other on the A license proficiency
card was another accidental copy and paste that shouldn't
be there.)

I've never had two canopies out, well not since the 60's when
I was experimenting with things, but, after talking to a number
of experienced people, seeing a few two outs, and thinking
about it, if I ever have one I plan to:

- If it's a biplane then steer really gently with the front
canopy and try to get on the ground before anything
weird happens (leave the brakes stowed and steer
with the rear risers of the front canopy).

- If it's a down plane then chop the main.

- If it's a side by side then sweat bullets of indecision
while I try some really gentle steering and see how
it feels and then either land it or force a down plane
and then chop the main or maybe something I haven't
thought of yet.

Skr