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Tetrahedron

GoPros right off of student status?

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more like...
Lots of ad hominem attacks / personal insults
Lots of appeal to majority fallacies ("look how many people disagree with you")
Zero statistical data corroborating the fear-mongering
Yup, pretty sure I've won this debate by a wide margin.
Skydiving is serious business

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You're a legend in your own mind.

There's a reason you don't let teenagers use the radio when they are learning to drive. It's a distraction.

There's a reason it's against the law to text and drive. It's a distraction.

Ever see a woman putting on make up as she's driving and swerving on the road. It's a distraction.

Ever see a man shaving while driving and looking in the mirror as he swerves on the road. It's a distraction.

The only thing people are advocating is that you wait until you have more experience before adding the distraction of a camera so that you don't endanger yourself, or others.
Since they aren't telling you what you want to hear, you want to demand statistics.

I doubt you would argue that it would be safe to allow a first time AFF jumper to exit the aircraft with no instructors present, but can you show me any statistics to PROVE that it would be unsafe?
No, it's just common sense.
Just like this.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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TracyS

You're a legend in your own mind.

There's a reason you don't let teenagers use the radio when they are learning to drive. It's a distraction.

There's a reason it's against the law to text and drive. It's a distraction.

Ever see a woman putting on make up as she's driving and swerving on the road. It's a distraction.

Ever see a man shaving while driving and looking in the mirror as he swerves on the road. It's a distraction.

The only thing people are advocating is that you wait until you have more experience before adding the distraction of a camera so that you don't endanger yourself, or others.
Since they aren't telling you what you want to hear, you want to demand statistics.

I doubt you would argue that it would be safe to allow a first time AFF jumper to exit the aircraft with no instructors present, but can you show me any statistics to PROVE that it would be unsafe?
No, it's just common sense.
Just like this.



You guys should really stop feeding the troll. He's admitted to being one over in SC and its been pretty obvious early in this thread he's trolling yet again. Pretty sure you guys have made your point should any newbies find their way over here and think "I wonder if I should strap a camera on my head..."
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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devildog


You guys should really stop feeding the troll. He's admitted to being one over in SC and its been pretty obvious early in this thread he's trolling yet again. Pretty sure you guys have made your point should any newbies find their way over here and think "I wonder if I should strap a camera on my head..."



Agreed, hence the picture at the bottom of my previous post.
I'm done responding to him.
Have a good one.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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mistercwood

***Other people shouldn't have to suffer because of that guy's decision not to care about his altitude. So a few can't handle the thrill of the camera. Doesn't mean they represent everybody.



Not jumping with a camera is a kind of suffering, now? Did you read the other stickied thread I posted? :S I also like how you flipped his loss of altitude awareness to being a "decision". He didn't decide shit, he got distracted by the camera and ended up a handful of seconds away from bouncing. Here's the video, if you'd like to see a fellow skygod in action.

Wow this is a fantastic example of what not to do.

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But like I said, all incident data only reflects what is reported. So camera incidents as a PERCENTAGE of total incidents will still be the same



No, because you are assuming that all incidents, from all causes, and of all magnitudes are reported with the same percentage of frequency, and that may not be true.

If half of all camera incidents are reported, and 75% of all canopy incidents are reported, the gathered data would suggest an artificially high ratio of canopy incidents to camera incidents.

The problem with not all incidents being reported is that there is no consistency in the numbers we have. That inconsistency applies to individual types of incidents, as well as overall incidents, so you can't look at the numbers and make any real conclusions from them.

Beyond that, the point is that if there are ANY reported incidents, the area of concern is a real risk. If I told you that jumping near a jet was dangerous because you could get sucked into the engine, that might not be a real concern as it's never happened (on a skydive), but if I told you that cameras of all sizes have been distracting jumpers and leading to bad situations, that is a real thing with real data to back that up.

With that in mind, and your willingness to accept that not all incidents are reported, you can see that the dangers and distraction of flying a camera are real. We have reports of such incidents to back this up, and if you add in the unreported incidents that must be out there, you have a fair number of examples of this being a 'real' thing.

You may not be aware of this, but you can do everything right in skydiving and still be killed. For this reason, you need to take great care to control the things you can control, such as decisions about equipment selection, the type of jumps you choose to make, and the weather in which you make those jumps. The idea is that when the out-of-your-control shit hits the fan, all of the in-your-control shit is taken care of, and you only have one problem on your plate (the one that was out of your control).

The majority of skydiving incidents are the result of a chain of events. Several bad choices or pieces of bad luck staking up against the jumper such that they cannot overcome them all. When you willfully add un-necessary or inappropriate risks or challenges to your skydive, you're laying down the first few links in the accident chain before you even leave the plane, and this is not the way to progress in skydiving.

Want to know how to survive and prosper in this sport? Ask someone who has, and then listen.

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Statistics require a good comparison dataset. We don't have that. I will suggest, however, that if you really want to focus on camera work with low jump numbers, that you eliminate other distractions -- because they are distractions.

Just as swooping is a discipline that's worth working on by itself, and not just tossing in at the end of an otherwise challenging skydive, so is camera work.

Don't jump with others until you're really comfortable with your camera gear, over multiple jumps, not just one. Yeah, it's boring, but such is life. Then start jumping with one other person, in some discipline that you're really familiar with. Maybe an instructor -- that way you know that if the framing is off, or the picture jumps in and out, it's you, and not the other jumper. You can work on that -- it's always easier to fix what you can fix yourself. And the cameraman's job is to make others look good -- you can only do that if you're good enough yourself.

Just as the world-class swoopers didn't get that way by making 75 jumps on each canopy they've owned, the world-class photographers didn't get that way by strapping on a camera from the beginning. They practiced. It's why it's recommended that RW photographers have significant RW experience before they start doing video -- because then they're familiar with some of what might go on.

Why do you care if you're really only interested in filming yourself? Well, how many hours of video do you want to acquire of yourself, that no one else wants to watch because it's basically unwatchable? Eventually youtube is going to start charging to put up or keep videos that don't get enough hits, simply because once it's not profitable for them to hold them for free, they won't.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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-Joey-

Wow... what happened that made you become such a douche? Did your wife bang some other guy?

1. You have no idea how old I am, so stfu about me being a "kid." For your information, I'm not. But from now on I will suspect you are.

2. Thanks for letting everyone know that you don't care if somebody dies. If anything that adequately demonstrates how much of a dick you are, and says nothing about me.

3. You have no idea how long I've been in this sport.

4. There is no requirement that I list real info in my profile. There's no way your license number is really 11111. You're whining about the info in my profile while you clearly have fake info in your profile!

5. Can you please shut up until you gain some experience? Cause I don't believe you have 1600 jumps either. If you do, prove you're not a hypocrite and show us your log book.

Now go get some jumps so you can hurry up and earn your A license, junior. Good luck on the AFF course.





Based on this post you made on 10 MAY 2013 in a thread about a 1996 Javelin and if you should buy it...
Quote

Yeah, freefly is what I want to get into, so I should probly pass. They also said the main is DOM '96 and has only 200 jumps, which doesn't sit right with my BS alarm...



Are you off AFF yet??

My BS alarm already exploded:S:S:S

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As I predicted, nobody has any statistical evidence to back up their camera fear-mongering. And everyone is just making up excuses as to why the evidence doesn't exist. Instead, we only have ad hominems and posts calling into question my experience, instead of refuting my argument.

Game, set, match. No point in continuing this thread.
Skydiving is serious business

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SHOW ME THE STATISTICS



There is an entire thread devoted to showing you the stats.... You don't care and ignore them.

You keep ignoring incidents that exist, then you nit pick trying to discount them.

It is pretty simple, when a person jumping a camera gets distracted and fails to pull and gets a cypres fire, or they hook in because they tried to film their shadow.... Those are directly related to the camera. But you try to ignore them saying they are not.

Further, you have loads of experienced jumpers telling you that it is a bad idea. I have even mentioned how my first camera jump almost killed me.

Frankly, you have all the data needed, you just CHOOSE to continue to ignore it. You have an idea in your head and no amount of data will change that.

THIS is why you are dangerous. You think you know more than everyone else, you willingly ignore any data presented.

I personally think you are a troll.

Further, I'd love to see where you get your "expert" opinion from. If I had to hazard a guess, you have ~100 jumps and are in your early 20's

Prove me wrong. I'll gladly show you my credentials to show how I came to my conclusion.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Of course cameras are a distraction, it's an extra piece of equipment to think about and people tend to lose a bit of common sense when they know they are or someone else is recording.

However, imo it isn't true across the board and I don't think it's really jump number specific, you're going to have people with a thousand jumps that geek for the camera while you have people with a hundred jumps that just want to show people what they see without a second thought. It's the nature of filming in general, some people get ballsy when they're recording, this applies to cellphones, gopros, full cameras, anything - others are more modest with it. This is why you'll get one cellphone recording of a shoot-out (and always vertical for some reason) and not 20 when you know everybody there had a cellphone. Of course, people with more jumps will have more knowledge of how to get out of a messed up situation.

I'm a bit curious as to the number of incidents with them as a snag hazard, or getting caught in risers. To note, I jump at dzs that only require 100 jumps to use a GoPro or Contour and far more for full camera rigs, and I'm also still a newbie myself so of course I'm coming from one view point.

Of course the GoPro Hero 3 has gone a long way in deterring jumpers, as they can never tell if it's going to record to begin with and seem to be saying f- it more often.

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Tetrahedron,

With respect to your original question, if you read all of the responses here, even though the majority of responses are responding to Joey's attitude, you'll get your answer too. Your seeing what people think of young jumper with cameras and the DZ's that allow it.
You yourself responded to Joey and then most do the responses are in support of your position.
Your thread did kind of hijacked but stayed pretty much on topic unless I misunderstood your question.
Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

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wmw999

Just as the world-class swoopers didn't get that way by making 75 jumps on each canopy they've owned, the world-class photographers didn't get that way by strapping on a camera from the beginning. They practiced. It's why it's recommended that RW photographers have significant RW experience before they start doing video -- because then they're familiar with some of what might go on.



Joe Jennings started with only 80 jumps and I'd imagine camera equipment was still fairly bulky then.

Just playing devils advokate.

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Rich2

Of course cameras are a distraction, it's an extra piece of equipment to think about and people tend to lose a bit of common sense when they know they are or someone else is recording.

However, imo it isn't true across the board and I don't think it's really jump number specific, you're going to have people with a thousand jumps that geek for the camera while you have people with a hundred jumps that just want to show people what they see without a second thought. It's the nature of filming in general, some people get ballsy when they're recording, this applies to cellphones, gopros, full cameras, anything - others are more modest with it. This is why you'll get one cellphone recording of a shoot-out (and always vertical for some reason) and not 20 when you know everybody there had a cellphone. Of course, people with more jumps will have more knowledge of how to get out of a messed up situation.

I'm a bit curious as to the number of incidents with them as a snag hazard, or getting caught in risers. To note, I jump at dzs that only require 100 jumps to use a GoPro or Contour and far more for full camera rigs, and I'm also still a newbie myself so of course I'm coming from one view point.

Of course the GoPro Hero 3 has gone a long way in deterring jumpers, as they can never tell if it's going to record to begin with and seem to be saying f- it more often.



It's not about 'getting ballsy' that is but a very small part of it. It is about that and about the distraction to the jumper and the choices made by the inexperienced jumper.

Statistically new drivers are more likely than experiences drivers to have an accident when they have passengers, when they are listening to music, when they are texting, even with a few drinks.

The SAME applies to skydiving. A new participant is MUCH more likely to cause an accident when they try to add distractions. This is just fact.

I understand the cock sure attitude of new jumpers... What I don't get is why they don't listen to people with 60x their experience.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Not meaning it as any kind of disrepect toward experience, I'm more just curious about it. I understand the radio analogy but also always wondered if that was more the messing with the radio as the distraction or the music itself.

Then again after a couple jumps I stopped jumping with a camera out of fear of a snag point and the fact the footage was a waste (jumping with a much more experienced person, so while videos of myself didn't hurt, he's pretty well off on that front.)

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Rich2

Yeah I think I was just trying to figure out how it's a distraction. I've used one a couple times but don't jump with one out of fear of a snag point (that and I have absolutely nothing to film, oh look a jump plane, and now the ground is getting bigger.) Otherwise it seems to be passive unless people start doing things specific for filming (like backflying on student gear, trying to film their friends at deployment, or filming a shadow (wtf?)), which is pretty ridiculous to begin with (If you wouldn't do those things without a camera, why would you do them with one.)

Not meaning it as any kind of disrepect toward experience, I'm more just curious about it. I understand the radio analogy but also always wondered if that was more the messing with the radio as the distraction or the music itself.



If you can *really* ignore it... Then all you have is the snag hazard. But history has shown that just does not happen. At some point the person tries to 'fly the camera'.

Now 'all you have is the snag hazard'.... Uh, that is a massive issue.

It is about layers. First, lets not forget that once we leave an aircraft that we have started a chain of events that WILL end in your death unless you and your equipment work correctly and in time. Anything added to that lowers your chances of success.

Simple question.... You have a guy with 100 jumps or a guy with 10,000. Which of the two do you think is better prepared for their first camera jump?

It's not rocket science..... New people that are still learning the basics and need to have the basics down before they try to add complexity.

And EVERY person likes to think they are above average... And that is impossible. And EVERY person that died in this sport didn't think they would.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Tetrahedron

This is my first and last time trying to get any information from this site.



Please don't let one troll run you off. You'll be missing out on a lot of good information and things to think and ask about.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Tetrahedron

It's just awesome when a troll can hijack my thread and completely dismiss the point I was trying to make.

The mods here must be way too busy.

This is my first and last time trying to get any information from this site.

Enjoy your troll playground everybody.



Trolls are a part of every internet site. It would be nice if mods did something about this troll, especially given the serious nature of this particular forum. But in the end, its best to ignore him and just respond to posters looking for an actual discussion.
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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popsjumper

***This is my first and last time trying to get any information from this site.



Please don't let one troll run you off. You'll be missing out on a lot of good information and things to think and ask about.

Please stop referring to those who disagree with you as trolls. If your definition of a troll is anyone who disagrees with you, then you clearly don't know what a troll is.
Skydiving is serious business

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Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.
Skydiving is serious business

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-Joey-

Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.


You said you were a troll. You act like a troll. Your posts reek of troll. Ergo, you are a troll. Your troll sauce is weak. You over play your hand far too quick to effectively reel people in.

And btw, it's not slander when it's written. It's libel. ;)
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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