GoPros right off of student status?

[Ron 7]

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and many US DZ's set 50 jumps (or a B License) as their requirement for a camera

Provide your data to back that up. How many US DZ's allow a GoPro at 50 jumps vs how many make you wait till 100 or 200?

You keep saying the data given to you is garbage.... So please provide the data to back up your claim. I think you know of one or two DZ's that have a 50 jump rule and just assumed others do as well.

Please provide your data.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Amazon 7]

Remster

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punishing the innocent

Poor poor repressed innocent skydivers! Woe is me!!!!!

Personally I think that everyone who is off student status should be required to wear at least 3 POV Go-Pros.. for forensic purposes.. and as a future revenue stream for all the Reality TV shows... that need all those carnage video's

[RobK 0]

What is the point of wearing a go-pro anyway that makes it worth all the hassle?

I mean, I can understand getting someone to film you/your group as a learning tool it's always useful to see what you are actually doing.

But what benefit does strapping on a go-pro provide?

You can't see yourself so you're not really going to learn anything about how your doing, I can't believe too many people are going to pay anyone with less than 200 jumps to film them,because lets face it the footage is likely to be shit, so what exactly is the point?

You'll end up with some footage of the sky, then the ground. If you're really lucky you might capture some gurning mates attempting to free fly fairly badly.

And to be honest there are about 22,000,000 videos of that already on youtube.

So what is the point? I must be missing something...

[skycatcher68 7]

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Nor do I. I do believe in requiring people to have enough experience to make an informed decision as to what risks to take. At 50 jumps, they don't

So I take it you're against having first-timers knowingly signing their rights away then, since they clearly aren't capable of understanding the risks?

This is what's backwards in the sport:

"Sign a waiver so that you accept all responsibility for anything that could go wrong on the jump, but in reality, sign a waiver so that I can micromanage everything you do without having to worry about having any personal or professional liability for what happens to you."

Jumper signs waiver to jump out of an airplane and accepts said risks, unless of course, the local "Mean Girls" determine that you're not cool enough to be in their clique.

What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

[Ron 7]

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So I take it you're against having first-timers knowingly signing their rights away then, since they clearly aren't capable of understanding the risks?

This is what's backwards in the sport:

"Sign a waiver so that you accept all responsibility for anything that could go wrong on the jump, but in reality, sign a waiver so that I can micromanage everything you do without having to worry about having any personal or professional liability for what happens to you."

Jumper signs waiver to jump out of an airplane and accepts said risks, unless of course, the local "Mean Girls" determine that you're not cool enough to be in their clique.

So.... you think we should just let people sign a waiver and then jump out of a plane for the first time with whatever gear they brought and without instruction of any kind?

Or do you think that people who don't know what they don't know should be guided and... I don't know, taught how to do things?

Your diatribe would be valid if you espoused the "sign a waiver and just let them go process".... But I really doubt you honestly think that is a good idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skycatcher68 7]

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So.... you think we should just let people sign a waiver and then jump out of a plane for the first time with whatever gear they brought and without instruction of any kind?

No, I have a problem with the abstinence-based model of skydiving training: "We'll just tell them it's wrong, and then not provide any education at all, that way they won't do it, because the good book says it's a sin!"

I guess the SIM is just another book that gets misquoted.

What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

[Ron 7]

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No, I have a problem with the abstinence-based model of skydiving training: "We'll just tell them it's wrong, and then not provide any education at all, that way they won't do it, because the good book says it's a sin!"

I guess the SIM is just another book that gets misquoted.

Well then you clearly have not paid attention to anything that has been said/typed/talked about.

When teaching an advanced skill set it is advisable to have the basic skill set at a certain level. I didn't learn to loop my plane till I had learned how to fly straight and level, take off, land, turns about a point, s turns, steep turns...etc.

The same concept applies to jumping a camera. You need to be competent in the basics of skydiving before you add distractions. The recent video of the guy messing with his chest strap till CYPRES fire is a perfect example of not having the basics down. And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes... Which is why I know about the topic I am talking about.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,116]

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No, I have a problem with the abstinence-based model of skydiving training: "We'll just tell them it's wrong, and then not provide any education at all, that way they won't do it, because the good book says it's a sin!"

But that's not what's happening. No one is stopping anyone from learning more about photography, or about canopy control or piloting, or anything else.

The materials are out there -- The Parachute and its Pilot, endless videos, the whole canopy control forum; plenty of information about photography, too. You can read all of it, and learn plenty before it's time to put it into practice in freefall.

If you do that, then you will be ahead of the curve.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skycatcher68 7]

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When teaching an advanced skill set it is advisable to have the basic skill set at a certain level. I didn't learn to loop my plane till I had learned how to fly straight and level, take off, land, turns about a point, s turns, steep turns...etc.

Not the same thing, wearing a camera is not a maneuver. What you're espousing is not letting student pilots talk on the radio until they have 200 hours of flight time, because talking on the radio would be a distraction. They should just stay away from airspace that requires two-way radio contact until they have the experience to control the airplane before they do something stupid like try to talk and fly at the same time. After all, talking on a cellphone while driving is illegal, isn't it?

The anti-camera argument is an irrational, arbitrary argument without any real foundation. Bill's statement above, "I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist," is outrageously biased, and just proves the point.

What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

[linebckr83 3]

Not the same thing, aircraft radios are mainly a safety mechanism. If you actually think a student pilot talking on a radio is more dangerous than having no radio then you are very misinformed.

A camera doesn't add safety to a skydive. Quite the opposite actually.

Can we get an idea of your skydiving experience so we know if you have actual merit to your opinions that cameras are harmless, or are you just another Joey?

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[Ron 7]

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Not the same thing, wearing a camera is not a maneuver.

Neither is putting on a chest strap.... Yet that seems to have been forgotten recently in DeLand.

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What you're espousing is not letting student pilots talk on the radio until they have 200 hours of flight time, because talking on the radio would be a distraction

Not even close. What I am saying is not to allow advanced maneuvers/tasks before competency has been shown in the basics. But you do know that in early flight instruction the INSTRUCTOR handles the airplane or the radio till he thinks the student can do both? So even YOUR example hurts your case.

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They should just stay away from airspace that requires two-way radio contact until they have the experience to control the airplane before they do something stupid like try to talk and fly at the same time

You also do not seem to know that flight into a controlled airport is not allowed for solo till it has been signed off by an instructor as part of the solo sign off. And for a light sport license you need an additional sign off to fly into controlled airports.... so again... Your own argument hurts your position.

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The anti-camera argument is an irrational, arbitrary argument without any real foundation.

No one has displayed an "anti-camera" argument. There is some valid concerns about someone having shown the experience necessary to not die on a basic jump before being allowed to add distractions. Again, look at the video of the guy messing with his chest strap till AAD fire.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skycatcher68 7]

linebckr83

Not the same thing, aircraft radios are mainly a safety mechanism. If you actually think a student pilot talking on a radio is more dangerous than having no radio then you are very misinformed.

You seriously missed the point of my analogy.

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A camera doesn't add safety to a skydive. Quite the opposite actually.

Flight Data Recorders don't make your airline flight safer, either. It's only upon review that the lessons are learned. It's amazing that the anti-camera people argue that there's no value in a POV shot of a skydive, but point to every POV shot of a skydiving mistake to argue against cameras. Wow, just take the camera out of the equation and no one makes mistakes anymore, brilliant! It's an asinine argument!

[Quote]Can we get an idea of your skydiving experience so we know if you have actual merit to your opinions that cameras are harmless, or are you just another Joey?
Here we go with the personal attacks! What's the problem, can't have a rational debate based on the argument?

What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

[wmw999 2,116]

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Not the same thing, wearing a camera is not a maneuver. What you're espousing is not letting student pilots talk on the radio until they have 200 hours of flight time, because talking on the radio would be a distraction.

No, more like telling people that they need some hours driving before they talk on the cell phone and drive at the same time. Of course, that's not necessarily a good idea for anyone, because it -- distracting!

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 3]

skycatcher68

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A camera doesn't add safety to a skydive. Quite the opposite actually.

Flight Data Recorders don't make your airline flight safer, either. It's only upon review that the lessons are learned. It's amazing that the anti-camera people argue that there's no value in a POV shot of a skydive, but point to every POV shot of a skydiving mistake to argue against cameras. Wow, just take the camera out of the equation and no one makes mistakes anymore, brilliant! It's an asinine argument!
?

Taking your thread of thought, sure...put a Flysight (a Flight Data Recorder) in the newer skydiver's pocket or audible slot in the helmet. Flight Data Recorders don't cause aircraft to bend a prop, run out of fuel, or affect the aircraft's performance in any way, regardless of the skill (or lack) of the pilot.

A Flysight will allow the user to plug the data into Google Earth and the accompanying track looks remarkably like freefall and the canopy right, right down to seeing the stows releasing on the Dbag during deployment.

Cameras do provide cause for distraction, they do provide cause for snags, and they do encourage stupid behavior. Not just in our world, but the world of aviation, period. AOPA recently published an advisory about small format cameras.
In reading many of your posts, it seems you like to be contrary. There are good things found in that.
However, whether it's a GoPro or a big-ass RED camera, the one thing that hasn't changed over the course of the many years that film/video has been part of skydiving. People flying with cameras too early on create/inspire/contribute to challenges that their experience simply cannot handle. Some have been fatal. Some have been permanently crippling. Some have been temporary pains, and the majority have been "No shit, there I was."
At the end of the day, each DZO has to decide what they will and won't accept at their DZ, but the upshot is, the DZ has to manage the incidents and the rap that comes with them. The USPA makes a recommendation to the DZO's that ascribe to the safety standards the USPA sets forth. USPA sets those recommendations based on hundreds of thousands of jumps and hundreds of years of collective experiences of its leaders and membership.
Statistics, empirical data, common knowledge, and common sense defy the position you're taking in this argument, and at the end of the day, your position still won't change anything.
If you show up on my DZ without the requisite number of jumps or a cutaway on your helmet, you're going to either lose the camera for the day, or lose the opportunity to jump.

As a side note, how many dead skydivers have you been up close and personal with after a bounce?

[skycatcher68 7]

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Neither is putting on a chest strap.... Yet that seems to have been forgotten recently in DeLand.

But it's not a big deal as long as it's not on video, right?

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Not even close. What I am saying is not to allow advanced maneuvers/tasks before competency has been shown in the basics. But you do know that in early flight instruction the INSTRUCTOR handles the airplane or the radio till he thinks the student can do both? So even YOUR example hurts your case.

And how many videos are there on YouTube of students videoing their training and their solo flights? Are they being unreasonably distracted by the camera(s)?

Instructors intend to teach as much as possible as the student progresses. It is expected that students will learn to use the radio from the beginning of flight training, and most pilots agree that using the radio is usually the most difficult and intimidating thing to learn during pre-solo training.

Quote

You also do not seem to know that flight into a controlled airport is not allowed for solo till it has been signed off by an instructor as part of the solo sign off. And for a light sport license you need an additional sign off to fly into controlled airports.... so again... Your own argument hurts your position.

There is no student solo sign-off for radio use. Solo sign-offs are airport specific - the student has to have received training to fly at each airport. Each individual solo x-country flight also has to have a specific sign-off. Also operation inside Class B airspace requires a specific sign-off. This applies to all student pilots, even student sport pilots.

Not sure of the point you were trying to make with Sport Pilots. If a Sport Pilot chose not to earn Class B, C, or D privileges then so be it.

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No one has displayed an "anti-camera" argument. There is some valid concerns about someone having shown the experience necessary to not die on a basic jump before being allowed to add distractions. Again, look at the video of the guy messing with his chest strap till AAD fire.

Again, the "anti-camera" argument asks me to look at a video to see why a camera shouldn't be used. How do you not see the hypocrisy?

What if the Bible had been written by Stephen King?

[airtwardo 6]

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But it's not a big deal as long as it's not on video, right?

Give it up 'Joey Lite'...your rational is becoming increasingly nonsensical.

The vast majority of people you are trying to convince have formed 'their' opinions through years of experience and thousands of jumps.

They are around it considerably more than some weekend warrior - LOTS of working with students - teams - coaches.

Their input is valid and should be given due consideration...and respect.

Not getting things 'your way' in a game you may not completely understand, is no reason to continue to whine and make arguments & analogies that have zero to do with the actual discussion.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ron 7]

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But it's not a big deal as long as it's not on video, right?

Good grief..... If you really think that way their will never be a point in trying to discuss anything with you.

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And how many videos are there on YouTube of students videoing their training and their solo flights? Are they being unreasonably distracted by the camera(s)?

There might be some.... Just because they exist it does not mean they were not a distraction and hindered learning.

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Instructors intend to teach as much as possible as the student progresses. It is expected that students will learn to use the radio from the beginning of flight training, and most pilots agree that using the radio is usually the most difficult and intimidating thing to learn during pre-solo training.

And it is TAUGHT... Not just thrown at them one day. Your argument gets worse and worse. Make the jumper go through a class and PROVE they can handle it and maybe they will be better prepared.

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There is no student solo sign-off for radio use. Solo sign-offs are airport specific - the student has to have received training to fly at each airport.

Which is EXACTLY what I said.

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Each individual solo x-country flight also has to have a specific sign-off. Also operation inside Class B airspace requires a specific sign-off. This applies to all student pilots, even student sport pilots.

You are arguing against yourself now. See, my point was that the student had specific instruction and was signed off for new tasks.... You are making your own argument weaker..... Quit while you are behind.

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Again, the "anti-camera" argument asks me to look at a video to see why a camera shouldn't be used. How do you not see the hypocrisy?

You have lost your argument. We are pointing out why it is a bad example by showing PROOF of why it is a bad example.

Sheesh, I am done. Your argument has actually destroyed your own argument more than anyone else ever could.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[-Joey- 0]

Skycatcher, no amount of logic will convince people who have made up their minds about something based on irrational thinking. It is refreshing to see another poster demonstrating some common sense, but rational thought doesn't appear to be welcome here.

The fact that after 7 pages, no statistical data validating the camera paranoia has yet to be provided, suggests that the camera paranoia may not be about safety at all. I've long suspected it has more to do with generational tension, which is evident by the frequent use of the word "kids" in reference to camera flyers. Interesting to note as well is Bryan Burke's use of the phrase "GoPro generation" in his Parachutist piece - interesting choice of words...

Skydiving is serious business

[airtwardo 6]

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Interesting to note as well is Bryan Burke's use of the phrase "GoPro generation"

~ Have you ever MET Burke in your vast travels & hordes of experience there 'Joey-Classic' ??

Few if any have more credibility...the smart skydiver would be more attuned to the message and less to the verbage.

But hey, if he offended you with the comment...just suck it up and get over it - won't be the worst thing you will hear!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[-Joey- 0]

Nope, just calling attention to the use of the word "generation" - it just seemed like an interesting choice.

I don't plan on jumping at Eloy, ever.

Skydiving is serious business

[airtwardo 6]

-Joey-

Nope, just calling attention to the use of the word "generation" - it just seemed like an interesting choice.

I don't plan on jumping at Eloy, ever.

Maybe when you've personally seen a few generations move through the sport it will make sense.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[-Joey- 0]

Technology won't come and go; technology is here to stay :)
Best to embrace it, and not fear it.

Skydiving is serious business

[popsjumper 2]

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Skycatcher, no amount of logic will convince people who have made up their minds about something based on irrational thinking.

Does this mean you are actually starting to understand the logic of your own posts?

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The fact that after 7 pages, no statistical data validating the camera paranoia has yet to be provided,

And you STILL don't get it.

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I've long suspected it has more to do with generational tension,

Paranoia can be treated, son. Seek assistance please before it gets to be debilitating.

Better yet, just go away. I, for one am just simply tired of your idiotic rantings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

-Joey-

Technology won't come and go; technology is here to stay :)
Best to embrace it, and not fear it.

I didn't see the article as fearing it, more as dealing with it.

All a matter of perspective I guess.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[monkycndo 0]

airtwardo

***Nope, just calling attention to the use of the word "generation" - it just seemed like an interesting choice.

I don't plan on jumping at Eloy, ever.

Maybe when you've personally seen a few generations move through the sport it will make sense.

Let's see, there was baby boomers, gen X, and who knows what the fuck the current generation is being called.

Calling the current crop of skydivers the GoPro generation is accurate. They have not known anything else but having a GoPro. I have only been in the sport 8+ years and am starting to feel like an old fart.

[pulls dentures out] Back in the day, you use to have to do some research about cameras, buy a helmet that was camera compatible, drill a bunch of holes, mount a bracket or box, redrill drill holes because you didn't get the angle right, buy a Hypeye from Trunk, and finally try your handy work.[/puts dentures back in]

Now you just fucking peel-n-stick, no knowledge required.

Some of the best learnin' I was ever given was listening to Bryan around the bonfire, either at Eloy or LP. For you youngin's that have not had that opportunity, you have so much of "you don't know what you don't know" just waiting to be brought to your attention.

sigh, the troll is still getting us to take the bait.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
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