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Tetrahedron

GoPros right off of student status?

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wolfriverjoe

***Those are anecdotes, not statistics.
Many them of them describe incidents where there is no evidence they were caused by the camera, the jumper just happened to have had a camera.
Many of them are totally ridiculous non-events, like forgetting goggles. Who cares, I've jumped without goggles before, just a little more wind in the eyes. ;)

If you want to make a solid case, cut those down to real incidents (ie AAD fires, injuries, or deaths, not "omg I forgot my goggles!"), only those which were clearly caused by the camera, and then figure out the percentage of total incidents it comprises. I guarantee that percentage will be very low if not negligible.



I can't decide if you actually believe the garbage you are posting or if you are a troll (FWIW, trolling is the posting of materiel deliberately intended to provoke a response).

He said he was a troll. He acts like a troll. What more do you need?
You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

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Tetrahedron

I recently questioned a visiting jumper on the ride to altitude, wearing a GoPro and he admitted he was on his 50th jump.

Another guy just posted a video of his first cutaway on his 131st jump, in the Incidents forum. I'm sure it's easier to get away with it at larger drop zones. Who knows how long he's been jumping a camera.

We really need to keep our eyes open for these "kids" that have no concept of the danger involved with jumping cameras with such little experience.

Or should that safety recommendation/dz rule be on a case by case basis?

What do you think?



Thank you. For so many things. You've gotten this thread going with your questions and proposals. I don't see myself being ready to jump a camera for at least 450 more jumps, and you've, and other posters, have made me question if I'll be ready for it then as I don't see myself as a skygod... just a noob with a lot to learn still. I don't want someone (online or person to person) telling me I'm ready for a new tool. Learning the basics and learning to them well is fine with me... I'm 30 (gah when did that happen!). I do consider myself to be part of that "Oh... I want that on youtube" generation... and yet know I'm not going to make the youtube millions off it... 'cause it ain't going to be pretty, only amateurish and juvenile. Please folks: Go for the generalization that there does need to be so much experience before new elements can be added. Most of us noobs appreciate it... even if some of "noobskygods" don't.
And as for the (il)logical fallacies Joey has posted... base rate probabilities and the argument from fallacy supports not his judgements, but those with the amazing wisdom because of their years in the sport, and even the noobs with common sense.

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fanya

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Did you read the other stickied thread I posted? :S I also like how you flipped his loss of altitude awareness to being a "decision". He didn't decide shit, he got distracted by the camera and ended up a handful of seconds away from bouncing. Here's the video, if you'd like to see a fellow skygod in action.



Wow this is a fantastic example of what not to do.



I like the bit where he grabs the outside risers of his side-by-side at about 150ft. Outstanding work:P
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I don't want someone (online or person to person) telling me I'm ready for a new tool.



You were fine with listening to your AFF instructors.... But now you are not fine with listening to more experienced people? This makes little sense to me. I wish there were more people more experienced than me around to give me advice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ah yes.... another fine example of distractions almost killing someone. No need to check your chest strap, just make sure your gopro is turned on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b90EzNNrQ2M
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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another fine example of distractions almost killing someone. No need to check your chest strap, just make sure your gopro is turned on!



Wait for it. Wait for it. 'Someone' is going to chime in disagree that the camera was a factor.

While it's true that this might have happened without the camera, the fact is that the camera was present and I can GUARANTEE you that the jumper probably touched the camera at least three times between gearing up and exiting. Checking that it was there, secure, battery charged, on and recording took time and attention.

Meanwhile, the chest strap received little to no attention. Fortunately for the jumper, the oversight turned out to be a non-issue in this case. If it had been something like a main or reserve pin that didn't get checked, the outcome of an incident could have been much worse.

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-Joey-

Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.



It's not slander to say you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to a culture of safety in the sport of Skydiving. That would be a factual statement, as would your ass could BE in a hole in the ground if ya don't flush out your headgear.

Like I said before - I've seen your stale bullshit act.

Your cocky attitude fools only yourself (who cares) and possibly someone inexperienced and unaware (real skydivers care) and that could get them hurt or worse.

You ARE a troll in that you falsely represent your experience in your profile...you have to LIE to try to get any credibility.

You know the bullshit you post wouldn't be given a second thought by even the newest n00b if you told what your true lack of experience is.

You want to talk the talk but in the REAL WORLD you don't walk the walk...you're an internet troll.

Maybe ya can get by with that in a cubicle programing for some corporation...but here lives can be in the balance.

You're obviously not stupid, just inexperienced and naive...put a decade or two in the sport, get some ratings, gather your own anecdotal information first hand through actually living it.

Trust me - do THAT and not only will you have some good information to share, but you'll have real credibility.

In the meantime - you're just talking stooopid bullshit and lying about who you are...that new guy 'Joey' ~ is a troll.

If that's how you get your kicks take it elsewhere, the virtual world stupid advice you so freely spread, just might have real world consequences - don't do that.

Food for thought~ If 5% of the people you're trying to convince disagree, then they are assholes. If 95% disagree, guess what - YOU'RE THE ASSHOLE.

Don't be an Asshole...at least not on purpose.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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airtwardo


You know the bullshit you post wouldn't be given a second thought by even the newest n00b if you told what your true lack of experience is.



Meh, I am the newest of n00b's and probably the worlds worst skydiving student ever and even I can tell he's talking out of his arse.

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Ok dude, you just got smacked down by one of the oldest, most experienced and most respected jumpers on here (and out there too). Not to mention a very rare "Wendy smack down."

Do what you want. You will anyway.

Just don't kill me or any of my friends.

You are a DGIT. You may be able to fly a camera without killing yourself, but your overall attitude will get you killed.

There was a thread recently on "What makes a good skydiver?"
The most common and necessary trait mentioned was humility and a willingness to listen to those who have been there before.

You might think about that, although I doubt you will.
You know too much and are far. far too smart to listen to people who have been in this sport longer than you've been alive. AND are still here to talk about it. (read my second sigline)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

Ok dude, you just got smacked down by one of the oldest, most experienced and most respected jumpers on here (and out there too). Not to mention a very rare "Wendy smack down."

Do what you want. You will anyway.

Just don't kill me or any of my friends.

You are a DGIT. You may be able to fly a camera without killing yourself, but your overall attitude will get you killed.

There was a thread recently on "What makes a good skydiver?"
The most common and necessary trait mentioned was humility and a willingness to listen to those who have been there before.

You might think about that, although I doubt you will.
You know too much and are far. far too smart to listen to people who have been in this sport longer than you've been alive. AND are still here to talk about it. (read my second sigline)






17 May 2015

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wmw999

Well, how many hours of video do you want to acquire of yourself, that no one else wants to watch because it's basically unwatchable?


skydave114

Ya know, if you learn to fly first, you'll get much better footage.
I really don't get why you kids bother with those things. YOUR VIDEO SUCKS



Came for this, leaving satisfied.

To all those jumping cameras as soon as you can find someone who will let you on their plane with one, try not to hurt yourself or anyone else while you're Blair-Witching it up.

Also, don't forget to make sure the lens bezel on your gopro matches your jumpsuit or you'll look like an asshole.

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Wow. I read this string with all of the toxic comments. There are clearly differing views on camera jumps and experience. I just finished writing an article on the early days of skydiving photography, scheduled for the Sept. issue of Parachutist. It was great talking to all the old guys who were still around (not Boenish, not Buquor) who were making camera jumps with um about 15 or 20 skydives. I'm an old far and conservative when it comes to risk. I want to be like Lew Sanborn and retire when I'm 83. Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there are idiots with 500 who can't. So we have to draw a reasonable line. What it is? It's worth the debate. If I ran a DZ, it would be 200, firm. On the other hand, here's my view (this is satire, okay?): if we let first jump students all have GoPros, we can now document every single fatality and stupid mistake in perpetuity.... Boy, I hope if I ever go in it's not on YouTube....
SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

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>Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there
>are idiots with 500 who can't.

I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist.

I have met several people who could not handle a camera at 500.

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billvon

>Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there
>are idiots with 500 who can't.

I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist.


I've met lots of them. All of Canada and many US DZ's set 50 jumps (or a B License) as their requirement for a camera which is perfectly reasonable. The overwhelming majority of jumpers who choose to wear them at this point do so with no incident at all.

It's sad that there are people who, just because a very small minority of jumpers have had incidents (that may be) related to cameras, think they should restrict everyone else who hasn't had a problem.

I don't believe in punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, specially when the innocent vastly outnumber the guilty.
Skydiving is serious business

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Hey,

At my home DZ nobody will let you board the plane with a camera and less than 100 Jumps, thats the minimum including a special camera briefing.

And thats a pretty good decision I think. The point is, the camera may distract your focus off from really important things. Thats also the reason why most student canopies have no collapsable slider(or maybe its just not necessary), or why you dont teach an AFF student the whole theory (law, etc) before his first jump. Your mind needs free capacities. And a camera is another factor which will allocate capacity.

Skydiving is as extraordinary sport, which requieres extraordinary attention due to its extraordinary environment.

Its just like your first driving lesson. You may feel overwhelmed by all the impressions, but once you get experience, you feel comfortable with it and you learn to handle it. And you also learn to handle other things while you're driving. Its the same in skydiving.

And to be honest, with 50 jumps you're not experienced in any way. You just learned to survive a normal skydive on your own.

Its a good thing we keep an eye on eachother and its also a good thing to avoid unnecessary risks.

Blues,

Ben

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-Joey-

***>Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there
>are idiots with 500 who can't.

I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist.


I've met lots of them.
All of Canada and many US DZ's set 50 jumps (or a B License) as their requirement for a camera which is perfectly reasonable.

Sorry kid. With your less than 50 jumps you are no position to judge whether they are safe or not!! Or to assess whether 25% of the jump numbers recommended by the uspa (and other national skydiving organisations) is reasonable or not.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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-Joey-

***>Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there
>are idiots with 500 who can't.

I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist.


I've met lots of them. All of Canada and many US DZ's set 50 jumps (or a B License) as their requirement for a camera which is perfectly reasonable. The overwhelming majority of jumpers who choose to wear them at this point do so with no incident at all.

It's sad that there are people who, just because a very small minority of jumpers have had incidents (that may be) related to cameras, think they should restrict everyone else who hasn't had a problem.

I don't believe in punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, specially when the innocent vastly outnumber the guilty.

Sorry but your wrong as far as Canada goes...here is a direct quote from our technically recommendations "Parachutists, possessing at least a C CoP, and being competent in the freefall discipline in which they wish to participate as a videographer, should seek advice from experienced freefall videographers regarding the type of equipment to be used in order that they may safely engage in this activity. At least one functioning audible altimeter must be used, and an Automatic Activation Device should also be used."

For a C license in Canada you need at least 200 jumps among many other things. Please don't spread false information to other Canadian jumpers. I understand that it is just a recommendation just like in the US but that is the official stance of the CSPA. I can tell you that at our dz 200 jumps in the min before strapping on a camera. I am at 141 right now and I haven't even thought of putting my gopro on. I started skiing with it last year and it is definitely a distraction. I have been skiing since I was a little kid (37 now) and love playing in the woods, glades skiing. I found last year that I was picking the tightest lines, skimming shoulders on trees just to get the "shot" Luckily I didn't get hurt but I came close a few times and it was all because of the camera, without it I wouldn't of been pushing so hard or taking chances just because I knew it would look cool on video.

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raveninca

******>Obviously, there are kid skydivers with 50 jumps who can handle a GoPro, and there
>are idiots with 500 who can't.

I have yet to meet someone with 50 jumps who can safely handle a camera. Perhaps one may exist.


I've met lots of them. All of Canada and many US DZ's set 50 jumps (or a B License) as their requirement for a camera which is perfectly reasonable. The overwhelming majority of jumpers who choose to wear them at this point do so with no incident at all.

It's sad that there are people who, just because a very small minority of jumpers have had incidents (that may be) related to cameras, think they should restrict everyone else who hasn't had a problem.

I don't believe in punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, specially when the innocent vastly outnumber the guilty.

Sorry but your wrong as far as Canada goes...here is a direct quote from our technically recommendations "Parachutists, possessing at least a C CoP, and being competent in the freefall discipline in which they wish to participate as a videographer, should seek advice from experienced freefall videographers regarding the type of equipment to be used in order that they may safely engage in this activity. At least one functioning audible altimeter must be used, and an Automatic Activation Device should also be used."

For a C license in Canada you need at least 200 jumps among many other things. Please don't spread false information to other Canadian jumpers. I understand that it is just a recommendation just like in the US but that is the official stance of the CSPA. I can tell you that at our dz 200 jumps in the min before strapping on a camera. I am at 141 right now and I haven't even thought of putting my gopro on. I started skiing with it last year and it is definitely a distraction. I have been skiing since I was a little kid (37 now) and love playing in the woods, glades skiing. I found last year that I was picking the tightest lines, skimming shoulders on trees just to get the "shot" Luckily I didn't get hurt but I came close a few times and it was all because of the camera, without it I wouldn't of been pushing so hard or taking chances just because I knew it would look cool on video.

And you all are still feeding the troll

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>The overwhelming majority of jumpers who choose to wear them at this point do so
>with no incident at all.

And if you strapped a rig to a whuffo and kicked them out the door of an airplane, the overwhelming majority would land without any serious injury at all. That does not equate to "can safely skydive."

>I don't believe in punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty

Nor do I. I do believe in requiring people to have enough experience to make an informed decision as to what risks to take. At 50 jumps, they don't

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airtwardo

***Hopefully the mods will do something about people like you who falsely accuse others of trolling simply because they disagree with you on a particular topic. Slander is one thing that shouldn't be allowed on this forum.



It's not slander to say you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to a culture of safety in the sport of Skydiving. That would be a factual statement, as would your ass could BE in a hole in the ground if ya don't flush out your headgear......


Twardo, tell us how you really feel! ;)

Joey, life is a marathon dude. Kick back and enjoy it. But remember, to enjoy it, you must first survive it. [:/]
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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