GoPros right off of student status?

[Ron 7]

Quote

So all I can do at the moment to contribute to the skydiving community is post sensible responses

Nothing you have posted here is a "sensible" response.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Bignugget 0]

mistercwood

***Other people shouldn't have to suffer because of that guy's decision not to care about his altitude. So a few can't handle the thrill of the camera. Doesn't mean they represent everybody.

Not jumping with a camera is a kind of suffering, now? Did you read the other stickied thread I posted? I also like how you flipped his loss of altitude awareness to being a "decision". He didn't decide shit, he got distracted by the camera and ended up a handful of seconds away from bouncing. Here's the video, if you'd like to see a fellow skygod in action.


The best part is the fist thing he does is mug for the camera when he lands. +1!

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Bignugget

The best part is the fist thing he does is mug for the camera when he lands. +1!

To get that shot, some sort of back flying skill would be nice. Learn to fly so you can get that shot. Then, you'll be ready for the camera.

@ Joey... All the points you mention just go to prove how screwed up your thinking is. Not trying to cut you down, just pointing out what's obvious to most.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[skinnay 0]

-Joey-

Who cares, there's no hard and fast USPA rule about cameras, only recommendations. My DZ only requires a B License to jump a camera so yes it is not uncommon to wear one of the 50th jump if you get your B by jump 50. This safety nazi crap on this forum is getting ridiculous.

Also, learn to use the search feature. This dead horse has been beaten a million times.

It's been beaten to death a million times because there's a fucking endless supply of clueless jumpers like you. Please just stop trying to be funny, you are failing hard..

[Bluhdow 31]

-Joey-

Also, learn to use the search feature. This dead horse has been beaten a million times.

Not everything -Joey- said was right (in fact, most wasn't), but this was spot on. Every single time a jumper with 199 jumps suggests that he/she is even aware that camera technology exists the thread deteriorates into exactly what we see above.

If you want to shake down jumpers at your local DZ, go ahead. Camera rules are written into the SIM and taught to new jumpers. I was told about it before AFF1. This horse isn't just beaten to death, it's beaten to dust.

Apex BASE
#1816

[NWFlyer 2]

Bluhdow

Camera rules recommendations are written into the SIM and taught to new jumpers might or might not get mentioned, and might or might not get read. I was told about it before AFF1. This horse isn't just beaten to death, it's beaten to dust.

FIFY.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kallend 1,621]

I bought a GoPro 3 Black last November.

Still debating whether I'm ready to jump with it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 24]

kallend

I bought a GoPro 3 Black last November.

Still debating whether I'm ready to jump with it.

I don't care how experienced you are, it's a distraction. I didn't put mine on for the challenge. And I think I only saw 1 or 2 people with small POV cams.

Remster

[jzzsxm 0]

I remember one of Joey's very first posts!!!

http://tinyurl.com/Joye-SoFPiDaRF

[billvon 2,381]

>All the injuries and fatalities that happen every day due to cameras.

Here are a few.


Late Summer 2009 Southeastern Region
I was playing with mounting options of my recently purchased little camera. Having just over 1,000 camera jumps at the time, this seemed like no big deal to stick it on the foot and go out and play. Given the nature of my jumping history, I have jumped non-standard gear on several occasions, including cameras mounted on the leg and chest but always with thorough planning beforehand. However this was a toy to me so I just took it lightly, grabbed it and went out to the boarding area for the dirt dive, fiddling with it the whole time. It was not till about 10,000 feet where I realize that my helmet is sitting on the bench in the boarding area and that I’ve been so distracted this whole time by the little plastic camera on my foot. I didn’t even notice on takeoff, when I always wear my helmet, that I had nothing on my head. This whole thing kinda spooked me so I told everyone that I would hang out on the outside of the tracking dive and break off early so that I can play it safe.

To sum it up, the skydive sucked, didn’t get any good footage because I was outside, and was mad at myself that I could be so careless. I think the small camera has been in the closet ever since and I went back to wearing camera only on camera jumps and no camera on fun jumps. Sorry the story has no blood and guts, but it’s still a big lesson on how sometimes things seem like no big deal when they really are. It may have ended different if I decided to stay in the skydive.


November 27 2009-NorCal Area
Female with approx 40 jumps exited aircraft with friend (about same number of jumps) Female claims to be “very active” BASE jumper, so going low (approx 1000 feet) was “no big deal.” She did not have a CYPRES. She was trying to shoot her friend’s deployment “from below.” No injury.

December 17, 2009 –SoCal Area
Male from Switzerland. 30 jumps. “I’m a paraglider pilot, so I know how to fly already.”
Flew into fence while trying to get video of his shadow. Minor cuts/abrasions.

Exact Date unknown-SoCal area
Female jumper, around 80 jumps was warned on ground and in aircraft about flying with a camera. She indicated that she felt very confident about flying with the small format camera taped to her helmet.
She left the aircraft with her goggles around her neck and after landing, admitted that in the process of trying to get the camera going, she had forgotten to put on her goggles. She was shaken up by the experience. No injury.

January 1 2010 Southeastern Region
Skydiver was shooting a friend on a high clear n’ pull. Neither one noticed their location and both ended landing far off the dropzone. Sprained ankle resultant from downwind landing on uneven and unfamiliar terrain.

March 21 2010 Southwestern Region
Skydiver “just shooting my jump” saw another canopy in the pattern and wanted to shoot it not noticing his own altitude. Downwind landing (against pattern). No injury, merely a talking-to by S&TA.

February (day unknown) SoCal
Two skydivers, each with fewer than 100 jumps, wearing small format cameras. They were practicing sit-flying and went low. Both deployed at approximately the same time and had a collision during deployment. Both suffered bruising, contusions. One jumper had 4 broken lines and 3’ tear in his center cell but did not cut away. He described the canopy as “really cool in the video” indicating he’d spent a lot of time looking up at the canopy. Neither had serious injuries.

March, exact date unknown Area/location not disclosed.
Tandem instructor with small format hand cam has a malfunction. He cuts away main but does not reach for the reserve handle, apparently anticipating a MARD save. He later explained that he wanted to keep filming the student and the cutaway (He did get great footage). No injury.

April 13 2010 Western Region
Skydiver with around 100 jumps wearing camera on head has spinning malfunction.
Delays cutting away and disconnects chinstrap on helmet before cutting away, losing altitude awareness. He was worried about the snag hazard, but still left his RSL connected anyway. He did not pull his reserve handle because “he felt the Skyhook take over as he was putting his hand on the D ring.” Skydiver had allegedly been warned about wearing a camera before 200 jumps. No injury.

April 19 2010 SoCal
Same skydiver from Switzerland mentioned earlier (Paraglider pilot) working on his swooping skills @ 200 jumps (while wearing wingsuit). Flew into fabric side of packing area breaking tension cables and damaging wingsuit. Claims camera wasn’t part of his incident.

April 21, 2010 Southeast Region
Skydiver with 242 jumps got a small format camera for Easter and was anxious to jump it. He pulled the camera from the USB charger and was rushing to the aircraft. He could not get the camera to turn on/stay on/go into record mode, and as a result of his rush, forgot to connect his chest strap.
He was experienced enough to grab his MLW and hold on during deployment.
His PM said “I think I need to work on my mental skills more because the camera kept me from doing my regular routine.” No injury.

May 3-5 (exact day unknown), 2010 Western Region
Skydiver could not get his small format camera to turn on and when the exit light came on, was still playing with his helmet. He delayed the other jumpers to the point that two others went past him. This created a snag hazard for the other skydivers, plus he had a helmet loose in the door area. The tandems on the load requested a go-around. No injury, was talked to on the ground.

May 2010 Central Region
AFF instructor was jumping a small format camera that they just had only just purchased. He was slightly long on climb out but still within reason. AFF jump goes normal until student deployment when the instructor flips to his back to film the opening of the student then tracks and deploys. This AFF instructor landed off while the other side instructor easily landed on the DZ with the student. Instructor was distracted by wanting to get "the shot." The instructor that landed off was carrying the student radio. The student landed uneventually without radio assistance.

June 7, 2010 South East area
Similar incident to tandem handcam incident posted above. Malfunction of the main (lineover followed by linetwists), TI cuts away but does not go for reserve handle. His left hand does not move in the entire video, and in the video, makes a comment about “getting that on camera.” Skyhook save. Reserve opens with several line twists and still, instructor does not move left hand, using right hand to twist and legs to kick.


June 20, 2010 SoCal area
(Actual jump number unknown, 3 months in sport). Newbie Jumper wearing small format camera on his chest was trying head down for the first time, got low (admitted he was geeking his camera) and deployed while head down. He flipped into his lines and one of the lines snagged his chest mount. “I was going for my hook knife but was able to clear the line first.” No injury.

June 21, 2010 Area unknown (from a post on DZ.com)
A jumper with approx. 50 jumps was gearing up and getting ready to board the plane, a highly experienced camera person noticed that this jumper had a Go Pro camera attached on top of his helmet. The jumper was questioned about his skill level, the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines: of a recommendation of 200 skydives should be performed before flying a camera.
The jumper boarded the plane and performed his skydive. The incident was brought to my attention and the jumper was questioned by me immediately following his jump.
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!
A camera is a DISTRACTION! Like it or not! I asked this jumper how many times he checked his camera to make sure it was on before he left the plane? He said he checked it multiple times. It is obvious that after he geared up, he never once checked himself, before he entered the plane, never checked his gear, while in the plane and before exiting he never checked his gear.....he checked his camera multiple times.


June 22, 2010 SoCal area
From S+T:
===========
Jump number 200, which is the minimum requirement for strapping a camera to your head at our DZ. Strapped a camera to my head. Plan was to film two handsome skydivers jumping in only boxer shorts after some bets from the night before. This was in March, with plenty of snow on the ground. And to make it interesting, we planned a downwind landing - unless the wind was too strong. Can anyone say "recipe for disaster"? (=

Freefall was uneventful. Followed one of the guys down in canopy. Looked at the windsock and decided it was "too strong". Of course, the other guys on the load thought otherwise. Coming out of the 180 degree hook I see one of them coming towards me. Not very close, but it grabbed my attention. Even got it on tape. But I didn't notice the ground coming up on me... Didn't flare at all, hit with feet, knees, upper body, bounced back through the risers in a somersault and landed on my back about 5 meters away. Thank SkyGod for the meter of snow on the ground - I walked away with a stiff neck for 1 week.

Conclusion: Camera is a distraction. Never plan for "downwind, unless it's too much", it would be much better with "downwind, or other side of the runway if you think it's too much". 180 degree hooks make it hard for others to see what you're doing and for you to see what others are doing. Stupid stupid stupid.

June 28, 2010 Central Cal region
Guy I was organizing this weekend at XXXXX. The jumper in question has plenty of skydives but is not the most heads up guy you've ever met. We were first out of the PAC on a 4 way freefly jump.

He was having a hard time getting the camera to turn on, so he started putting his helmet on without the Small Format Camera attached, turning on the camera and then sliding it into the locking mount. He put his helmet on, thought he turned the camera on and then put the Small Format Camera on, but he put it on backwards. He realized his error just as the green light came on. The jumper started to take his helmet off to correct the problem and I told him to forget about it. He listened to me and started to climb out when someone behind us yelled, "And it's not on either" He then stopped his climb out and started to try and turn it on. I again forcefully told him to forget it and he finally finished the climb out....ready set go.

It was a light load so we had room in the spot but he was clearly more concerned with that camera than anything else going on around him. My opinion is that this is a guy who wouldn't jump a camera if the smaller form factor were not available. I told him on the ground if he was going to jump a camera he needed to be ready to go once the green light was on, and if he wasn't he needed to forget about it and exit anyway. I think I should have told him he shouldn't be jumping a camera.

Date unknown, Southeastern Region
Jumper with 133 jumps had a small format camera and this was her first jump with the camera. She removed the camera from her helmet and was talking to the camera when a gust of wind grabbed her canopy and picked her up. She landed on her side and broke her wrist. Her helmet probably saved her from additional injury.

July 4, 2010
From I/E, S&TA Western Region:
Jumper with 112 jumps decided to sneak a (brand deleted, small format) camera on a load. We do not allow them before 200 jumps, period.
Filming his own landing he failed to flare as he was watching either his feet or his shadow. We haven't heard back from the hospital yet but it appears he sprained both wrists, maybe broken.
This jumper will be monitored very closely in the future but I believe he has learnt his lesson with this injury.
Please keep posting these incidents. They make for strong arguments against these dweebs that think it's about the size of the camera that counts.

NorCal, July 10
Tandem-master is doing Handcam. Spinning main due to one break toggle being stuck. He never attempts to clear break toggle! Cut-away! Never uses left hand to pull reserve. RSL/skyhook safe. Not sure if camera was the problem. Didn't look like he tried to film everything (or at least the footage doesn't look good) He claims to have had TM cut-aways before where the skyhook beat him to the reserve....so he decided this time not even going for the reserve? TM has PRO rating too.
[dse note;I have requested a copy of this video so I can pixelate/blur faces but post the incident.]

August 19 2010
From S&TA/Southern area
Younger jumper
[edited to say] Small format camera] tied to helmet
Riser caught camera on deployment and broke plastic clip. Camera flew out but the Spectra tied to camera case caught riser and brake.
[edited to remove name] landed with helmet attached to chest strap because the way his helmet got wrapped on riser.

October 1, 2010: Mid-Western region
A jumper with approximately 120 jumps was competing in a 4-way scramble event. He had a [[namebrand deleted]] mounted on the side of his helmet with velcro and a tether. One the first jump of the day, he knocked his helmet on the door on exit and the camera came loose.

Because the camera was tethered, it was floating next to his head, smacking up and down in the wind. They ended up funneling the exit and went pretty low while he spent several seconds trying to fix it. Eventually he gave up and continued the skydive.

On the next jump he hooked up the camera again. We told him that perhaps he shouldn't wear it given the circumstances and his less than 200 jumps, but he insisted it was fine. Since our DZ doesn't have a set rule about no cameras before 200, there was nothing anyone could do.

Because I was right above the formation when the camera nearly came off, I'm not too happy with the situation. There's a good chance that I could have gotten a face-full of camera if there hadn't been a tether. Have you had any success in convincing jumpers not to use these types of cameras with such low jump numbers?

Western Region (Chicks Rock) Oct 1
Visiting jumper borrowed helmet from experienced skydiver. Small format camera on helmet.
It was this visiting jumpers first jump on this parachute/main, first helicopter jump, and second jump from below altide. He had around 50 total skydives.
After exiting the helicopter, he kept looking around the sky for his partner, but couldn't locate her, His audible can be heard going off. He does not deploy.
He appears to deploy at approx 1.5k based on pausing video with his alti in view.
He has sufficient altitude to get back to DZ at that point, but he chooses to geek teh camera instead, throwing hand signals etc. He does not make it back to the DZ landing area, and instead lands on the motorcycle racetrack. Had he deployed at proper altitude, or had he not geeked the [brand name deleted], he'd have easily made it back.

South Eastern Region PM rec'd Nov 4 2010
I should have listened to you guys.
My [{edit} small format camera] was glued and taped on the top of my helmet. When I deployeed my breaks excess got caught over the camera and I couldn't see what was caught so I tryed to pull off my helmet and then saw my break lines on it. I couldn't steer and couldn't know what to do so I chopped my canopy and had my first reserve ride. My helmet stayed tied to the canopy and even the camera was OK.
(video of this incident has been requested. This jumper has 66 jumps)

Western Region PM rec'd Dec 13 2010
Heres another 1 for your dz.com list.
Dude has a [[brand name deleted]] on his helmet @ about 65 jumps dzo he dont care.
Head down and delpoys and lines caught on the [[name brand deleted]] and he had to chop. and the [[brand name deleted]] broke off but it made his reserve twist up when it pulled his head. He got lucky to get out of the twists at about 1grand.

Midwest DZ, April 2011

First jump with a small format camera. Have owned one for about 2 years, using it for things like mtn biking, rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, etc. (not saying this made me ready to jump it, just more aware of what I was attaching to my helmet). Uneventful 2 way, was aware of the small format camera on my head but remained altitude aware, tracked off at 5.5, waved, deployed. Nasty spinning line twists, didn't want to chop because it was my first camera jump although I remained altitude aware in the spins, making the decision at 3K that I could kick out, started spinning out around 2.8, fully out of twists by 2.6.

SouthEastern Region June 18

My friend was jumping his [small format camera] and hit it on exit. He was trying to fix it so it was pointing the right angle after the exit and started to sping. He spinned very fast and hit me in the side and almost made my hackey come out. After he hit me we both were spinning pretty fast so he pulled his main because we said cameraman pulls first.
People should know to leave alone the camera if there is a problem in the jump so more problems don't happen in the jump.

8-22-2011: Location unknown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCu-KfMhH4g

SouthWestern Region 9-1-2011
Got another one for ya. One of our young jumpers travels a lot on business. Got his a license here. A few weeks back was up in Washington. Bought a contour from [deleted] no one ever said a word. Had 35 jumps or so. Jumped it there side mounted and at [deleted].
Came back to Texas and jumped at [deleted]. Gorgeous day was flying around enjoying the clouds and the view. When he landed realized he had lost the camera to a riser strike.
Went out to a local store and bought another. A few days later went down there, manifested on a 13 minute call. Spent the time taping his camera to his helmet to make sure he didn't lose it again. Halfway to altitude realized that he was so focused on his camera that that he didn't bring an altimeter. Hid that fact from everyone cuz he was embarrassed. Left the plane and counted to 55-one hundred and pulled when he Was getting serious ground rush
Came back to his home DZ yesterday. Walking out to the plane saw his camera and promptly told him he didn't have the experience and he didn't argue and took it right off.
Sad part is he's completely ok with not jumping it here but he openly admits that when he is somewhere they don't care, he is wearing it.

Western Region 10-8-2011
(this person has 31 jumps when the incident occurred, according to their DZ.com profile)
Here's one for your report list.
I was flying just fine after deployment but did a really hard turn. When I was looking over my shoulder my camera got stock in my lines and I couldn't get it off. I was low to take my hands off my breaks. I landed, but it cranked my head over and I sprained my wrist when I fell over. I'm going to take off the camera for a while.

North East Region 11-6-2011
Short story:
Four low experinced jumpers exiting the OTTER at 13,500' with seemingly a very poor plan. The jumps turns into a 2-way and maybe another 2-way or two more solos (two other just vanish from the frame) The guy with about 110-115 jumps wearing a Drift camera trying to video the person (same experince level or even less) a who he was able to "catch" in free fall. When I viewd the video I knew it's going to show some trouble because it was getting awefully long.
Finally the "video subject" deploys and the guy with his Drift trying to film the deployment. At the mean time the two other jumper's canopies show up in the frame while he passing them in freefall.
Of course they were low... Now the dude deploys his main as expected his AAD fires his reserve at the same time. The lucky bastard had a biplane not an etanglement or other more dangerous two out configuration. He lands on someone's roof miraculously not hurting himself and not making any property damage either. Back at the DZ proudly showing his "adventure video" without showing any strong feelings.
The guy could have died 3 times this jump!
I hope you'll post this one too.

Western Region Jan 2011
A picture is worth a thousand words.
In this 'incident' both jumpers each have 18-19 jumps. They had been turned away from wearing a camera at one DZ so they found another one that didn't ask. They both rented rigs and warned that the rental rigs weren't freefly friendly.
"Cameraman" tries to backfly so he can "get the shot." The non-freefly friendly rig has other ideas and he has a premature deployment.
Although this incident is related to the non-freefly rig issue, the jumper would not have been freeflying/backflying had he not been attempting to get a shot of his buddy from below.
Note the buddy lower than him; he could have easily fallen through his buddy's canopy at the cutaway. The buddy could have just as easily hit the cameraman during the premature deployment.
Had the camera not been there, this would likely not have happened.
Chain of 3;
-Low time jumpers
-Non-Freefly friendly rig
-Camera

Southeastern Region Feb 4, 2012
This guy was on the plane with us and had two new {small format cameras] on his helmet. He was filming his deployments and solo jump.
He kept asking if the cameras was on and was fidling with it when the door opened. He jumped out and his helmet flew off because he forgot to snap it on.
He recovered everything but the cameras and helmet was badly damaged. It could have hit a house or a car.

Mid-Atlantic Region Feb 25, 2012
I thought you might like to add this to the list.., we had a 55 jump individual jumping with a Go-Pro who was seen cutting away almost immediately after main deployment.... he reported that the camera entangled in some fashion with the risers, "shreddding" them and spinning the canopy up. He landed without incident under a reserve, losing his freebag and camera, ruining a set of risers but quite proud that he kept his handles.

Southwest Region March 6, 2012
Witnessed this weekend in XXXX
Jumper with more than 500 jumps and a coach rating jumps small format camera (GoPro) for first time. Camera mounted on shoe, facing up. After much deliberations with several experienced camera fliers. "Your shoe is as far from your lines as you can get"
- According to jumper: practiced several times with ShoeCam on the ground.
At the 20 minute call is all geared up.
Asks two experienced jumpers to check his gear while waiting for a solo.
Asks for another gear check at 9,000 ft from a load organizer on the jump (With helmet fastened and goggles on).
Turns on camera and when the door is opened the camera does not start recording.
Ignores the camera, does a solo.
Land uneventfully on the DZ.
After getting back to the packing hangar and taking off the rig, begins fiddling with the camera...SD card was resting comfortably in the gear bag.

I know your thread is for all the crap you should not do, but this might go into the "take this shit seriously" pile.
Be a student:
- Get a gear check or two.
- Do solos before jumping in groups.
- Mount the camera initially in places where snags are less likely: shoe, wrist
- Get competent help. Not DZ.com.
- Practice, practice, practice.

Maybe we can put together a procedure for FPC "First Photo Course" like the WS course. If we make it, and have camera flyer course (even if its just a 30 minute briefing and a solo jump) it might save some people and in time will become standard. Don't need more BSRs.
(Some dropzones do have camera flyers with a standard camera course/requirement)

Central Region August, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7FPCqbZ-M


Take a look at the above linked video and then return & read on.


THAT is any demo jumpers worst nightmare, dropping something from altitude that could hurt or even kill a spectator...it was caused by a GoPro.

At the beginning of the EAA AirVenture Oshkosh airshow this year the people from GoPro had a HUGE marketing program in place. They had a large semi sized mobile facility that had several wide screen TVs going showing all the great things one can do with this little camera.

They ALWAYS had several hundred people gathered around hoping to win a give-a-way or buying one of the units...GoPro had a great bunch of people there and in speaking with one I know they had a very successful time at the convention, I think I remember 1/4 million in sales being tossed out as a number.

One of the ways they were promoting the product was to outfit the performers with a Hero2 or more and then edit & playback that footage on the outdoor displays. Quite effective as it was very interesting to see the perspectives from the performers view ~ and the spectators just ate it up.


On the other hand...THIS grumpy ole fart saw problems from the get-go.
One of our more experienced demo jumpers was damn near out of control...'jump a cool little camera HERE, that WILL let me do just as they advertise...Be A Hero' ~YOU BET!

Problem is, although we jump with all kinds of extra stuff attached all over us, it's something we practice, something that's well thought out, and something that is actually the REASON for making the jump in the first place. . . attaching a camera with no training only serves to increase the complexity of an already edgy skydive.

It was obvious that my protests were not going to be heeded, after all I jump a camera on demos all the time and have for years.
But then again, I have 6-700 camera jumps and yes I DO turn it on and forget about it...that's obvious to anyone that's ever seen one of my demo vids!

The best I could do was sit everyone down who was jumping a camera for the time and explain a few of the issues 'we have' discussed on these forums... define & warn against GoPro-itus.

By the 2nd day of the show - it was off the chain! People filming our briefing instead of listening, discussing the best shot angle instead of the spot...on & on. A couple of guys even FORGOT gear they needed once we were on board and had to go chasing after our support van to retrieve it...we had ANOTHER long talk that evening.

It did little good, the following day a good friend, long time jumper (42 years) and one of the better demo jumpers I know...shows me his SECOND camera attached to his 'standard Protec'...it's sticking 4-5 inches out off the right side of the helmet on a mount that MUST have been designed to foul parachute deployments!

WTF...I explained how 3 possible things could happen and two of 'em were really bad. Wouldn't be deterred even after I explained in detail how well the noose he created would work and thankfully we'd have footage of his demise!

...he landed ok, but deployment riser smacked that camera so hard the impression of it is in the side of the helmet forever, not such a great shot on that one.

Time to throttle it back...I discussed with the GoPro rep some concerns the next day. Showed him my GoPro mount which is side mounted on an L bracket, with a strong bungee going over it, with a short piece of super-tack holding the whole thing to the helmet so that even IF it were to detach it wouldn't drop on the crowd....overkill the rep thought, but he did go with less that day with regard to where and how attached.

Wasn't only US, as seen in the above attached vid, the Military team also had it's problems. Let me preface by saying these we some of the coolest people and most professional demo jumpers I've ever met...we got along well. I doubt they would take offence to my using this example as a learning tool.

That sequence was only 1/3 of the way through, the flag jumper wearing the camera was supposed to turn 90 and the side-by re-docks.
He himself open and honestly admitted he was concentrating on the shot and missed this cue to turn...thankfully the flag, WITH the heavy weight....landed out in the Pyro field and not on any spectators.

The next morning the airshow briefing was quite concise about things...'Start pulling those cameras OFF the aircraft & jumpers before someone DOES get hurt....do it NOW'

Think about this for a minute...THE BEST professionals in the business were not able to 'set it & forget it' ~ as many of the Norm Kent wanna be n00bs claim they will be able to do.

Make NO mistake about it, adding a camera adds complexity...IF your don't receive training, practice with it, have the right gear to go along with it ~ just a matter of time until something unexpected happens.

It might kill you or someone else..OR it just might end up being hilariously funny. The icing on the weeks cake was the last day, my buddy 'snuck' one more camera jump in.

This time it was a low in front mount. It looked ok and we had a quick re brief on EP's & forgetting it was there. WELL...I'll have to look for it but I have the download, GREAT shot of him coming in for a landing, the sun behind giving surrealistic detail to the shadow ever increasing in size.

Right up until he no flares into a two foot deep puddle of muddy icky drainage water...face first!

Reviewing the vid...hands in the toggles never move until WAY too late, the splash is gut busting funny, especially when all ya hear is ~ 'hope these things are water proof!'


SO...

MY ~advise for beginning camera jumping~

Get good at skydiving FIRST, then get some camera training and use appropriate gear. . .be SAFE, not a HERO!


Holland Sept, 2012
It is being reported that this incident may have been camera/snag related
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Western Region Oct, 2012
Jumper had 55 jumps/Blicense. Turned on [small format camera] on the heli ride up 'so it wouldn't distract me.'
Exited the heli unstable @ 5k, tossed the PC (unknown altitude)and caught a line on the [small format camera]. Jumper was spinning fast and chopped. Main didn't release so [removed] released the helmet cutaway. Deployed reserve and was OK. Camera was OK too, asking [removed] jumper for copy of footage.

NOT AN INCIDENT
Just a worthwhile video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEI_6cErbM

Kansas October 2012
Jumper distracted by toe camera.
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4378030#4378030

Germany Oct, 2012
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

January 2013, NorCal
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...0/skydiver-accident/
The small format camera is not related to the gear failure, yet the footage indicates the jumper was focusing more on the camera than on the jump (that ole' distraction thing again), and the instability led to a premature deployment.

March 2013 Western Region
Jumper wearing camera filming his jump partner. Jump partner deployed at 3000, camera flyer roled on his back to film the deploying partner. Stayed to long on his back and CYPRES fired when he pulled out his main to late. Main canopy caught on his [small fomat camera brand deleted] and he landed two parachutes. He got grounded for a week.

[Liemberg 0]

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Nothing you have posted here is a "sensible" response.

Well, at least it was funny.
Having found footage on youtube made by one of my static line students with a cell-phone, without my knowledge or consent I must say there's indeed no "one-on-one" connection between filming yourself while parachuting before the age of consent and winning the Darwin Award while doing so.

Doesn't mean it is a great idea, toddlers running with scissors

Luckily I'm retired, because the prospect of frisking students for camera's before they board the aircraft doesn't really appeal to me - there's only so much you can do, let alone be willing to.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[mik 2]

-Joey-

Prove that you have the 1600 jumps you claim in your profile. I want to see a photo of your log book right now.

Kid.... you really are a real dick of the highest order. I don't care if someone like you pounds in and damages themselves - even if permenantly. I really don't. If you stay in the sport for any amount of time you will see this happen and will realise that some people think they, and they alone, have mad skilz that the dinosours on this site just don't understand. Probably a bit like you.

But I do care if your advice (with your lies of 69 years in the sport and 1600+ jumps) is believed by young jumpers who follow your advice and hurt themselves, or worse, others.

Can you please shut up until you get some experience??

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[-Joey- 0]

Wow... what happened that made you become such a douche? Did your wife bang some other guy?

1. You have no idea how old I am, so stfu about me being a "kid." For your information, I'm not. But from now on I will suspect you are.

2. Thanks for letting everyone know that you don't care if somebody dies. If anything that adequately demonstrates how much of a dick you are, and says nothing about me.

3. You have no idea how long I've been in this sport.

4. There is no requirement that I list real info in my profile. There's no way your license number is really 11111. You're whining about the info in my profile while you clearly have fake info in your profile!

5. Can you please shut up until you gain some experience? Cause I don't believe you have 1600 jumps either. If you do, prove you're not a hypocrite and show us your log book.

Now go get some jumps so you can hurry up and earn your A license, junior. Good luck on the AFF course.

Skydiving is serious business

[unkulunkulu 0]

Isn't restricting and banning appropriate for this kind of behavior in S&T forum? I'm a FNG here, but this seems weird to me.

[Fall0ut 3]

Don't feed the trolls...

[-Joey- 0]

My response was equal in magnitude to mik's response, so if I violated any rules, he definitely did.

Skydiving is serious business

[mr2mk1g 10]

-Joey-

Wow... what happened that made you become such a douche? Did your wife bang some other guy?

1. You have no idea how old I am, so stfu about me being a "kid." For your information, I'm not. But from now on I will suspect you are.

2. Thanks for letting everyone know that you don't care if somebody dies. If anything that adequately demonstrates how much of a dick you are, and says nothing about me.

3. You have no idea how long I've been in this sport.

4. There is no requirement that I list real info in my profile. There's no way your license number is really 11111. You're whining about the info in my profile while you clearly have fake info in your profile!

5. Can you please shut up until you gain some experience? Cause I don't believe you have 1600 jumps either. If you do, prove you're not a hypocrite and show us your log book.

Now go get some jumps so you can hurry up and earn your A license, junior. Good luck on the AFF course.

It's all pretty freaking obvious from your posting history.

1) I'd say most likely early 20's. I don't think you're actually a child: you're most likely a licensed skydiver and therefore that's highly unlikely. It's just that people who act like a child tend to get spoken to like one.

2) Meh, they're your choices. You make poor choices and get hurt by them, that's your choice. Land of the free and all that. It's the guy you take out with you that people are more worried about. It wasn't his choice.

3) That's also pretty freaking obvious from your posting history. You started last year. Your questions since joining the forum make your level of knowledge pretty easy to gauge and, as a corollary, your time in the sport.

4) Nope, people can go on line and lie to people all they like. I, for example, am an 18 year old blonde bombshell with tits like you wouldn't believe. Lets be honest, you have maybe 50 jumps? I suspect you are probably licensed, though not by much. If you had more experience, your posting history would read very differently. Equally, lying so obviously about your jump numbers speaks volumes about your actual jump numbers and time in sport. It's like telling the other kids in the playground you're 6 and 3/4 when you're actually only 6 and 1/4. It says to all that you have a massive chip on your shoulder about how you feel you're being held back by your relative lack of experience and time in sport. It says you want to be perceived differently to who you actually are. It says a great deal.

5) See 1)

[Ron 7]

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1. You have no idea how old I am, so stfu about me being a "kid." For your information, I'm not. But from now on I will suspect you are.

We may not know your biological age... But we do know the age level that you express yourself.

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3. You have no idea how long I've been in this sport.

No we don't know exactly since you will not be honest.... But again, we do know from the types of questions you are asking how experienced you are.

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If you do, prove you're not a hypocrite and show us your log book.

If you like, I will gladly provide proof of my experience.... Will you then do the same?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[-Joey- 0]

Ron

If you like, I will gladly provide proof of my experience.... Will you then do the same?

I don't care about your experience, I want to see mik's, and his license number. And I care more about his blatant hypocrisy than whether his info is true. But he's being pissy about me having bogus info (of course I do, this is the internet) while he clearly has bogus info. But again, it's not his bogus info that I'm calling him out on, it's his hypocrisy.

Ron

We may not know your biological age... But we do know the age level that you express yourself.

It shouldn't matter anyway. The "kids" in this sport deserve the same level of respect as everyone else, but I sense that many older jumpers have utter disdain for younger newer ones, regardless of jump numbers. It becomes obvious when they use phrases like "kids with GoPros" (as if all camera flyers are kids) or try to use "kid" as a put-down, as mik did. What's really going on here has nothing to do with camera safety, it's really just about animosity toward young people. The older folks don't like that they are losing their exclusivity in the sport as it's becoming more accessible.

Skydiving is serious business

[Ron 7]

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It shouldn't matter anyway. The "kids" in this sport deserve the same level of respect as everyone else

Respect is earned, not given. Courtesy is given, but when it is stepped on - do not expect it to be given long.

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but I sense that many older jumpers have utter disdain for younger newer ones, regardless of jump numbers

No, what you sense is disdain for people that act like they know everything and that insult those with more experience.

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What's really going on here has nothing to do with camera safety, it's really just about animosity toward young people

Pure unadulterated bullshit. What is going on here is those of us with experience know things that those without that experience don't.... And that people without the experience don't seem to care.

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The older folks don't like that they are losing their exclusivity in the sport as it's becoming more accessible

You think I and others have nothing better to do than try to 'keep you down'???? You think I have spent 15 years as an instructor teaching others, coaching others, encouraging others, and yes on occasion being blunt with hard heads because I secretly want to prevent them from being better than me?

You have zero clue about me or my motivations. The funny thing is you are crying that others are making assumptions about you, but that is ALL you are doing.

Seriously, you think I have spent half my life skydiving and helping others AFFI, Tandem I, SLI, and I am currently sitting at an airport to go coach a 4way team this weekend... And really just want to keep you down?

Or, maybe I have been around the block a bit and once was as stupid and cock sure as you. I survived my stupid mistakes while watching others die from the same errors. Maybe, just MAYBE I care more about you 'kids' than you do.

I almost died on my first camera jump.... Because I flat out screwed up and didn't consider it a big deal. I hooked in one of the first HP canopies in the US. So when I speak I the dangers.... I not only know people who died, *I* made the mistakes.

You want to stop being treated like a kid.... Quit acting like one.

And for the record, I am 40 and been skydiving since I was 20. When I was 20 I acted very much like you.... One major exception... When people with experience gave me advice, I didn't insult them - I listened. And it might have been what has made it so I could jump for 20 years and make 6k jumps with National medals, world records, jumped 69sqft canopies and a bunch of other cool things.

I have seen plenty of hard heads that though they knew more than anyone else die. Here is a little hint and a bit of advice:

You are not as smart and experienced as EVERYONE. If ONE person tells you something that you don't like/don't agree with.... Eh, they might be an asshole. If TWO people tell you... You might want to listen. If three or more tell you that you are wrong.... Odds are you are wrong.

You are now free to claim I am just an old fart that wants nothing more than to keep you down.

Edit to add: You know what the 'old guys' called me, in person - to my face, when I was starting? 'Young Punk'. I didn't get butt hurt about it.... By listening to them, I most likely am alive today and am now called 'old'.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[-Joey- 0]

Whoa, where did I say you did any of those things? I said it's something I've perceived in general. I wasn't specifically addressing you.

If you want a good example, look at the OP's post. He specifically mentions "kids" with cameras, but doesn't say anything about "adults." Jump numbers aside, there's a bias against younger jumpers present there, whether the OP realizes it or not. Another example is in the Safety Check article in this month's Parachutist where the author makes a remark about "try[ing] stuff without adult supervision."

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When people with experience gave me advice, I didn't insult them - I listened.

I listen to people who give me advice too. I solicit it all the time, and often pay for it in the form of coaching. Obviously if I wasn't willing to listen to advice I wouldn't be shelling out cash for it.

What I don't listen to however is when someone gets up on their high horse and starts preaching down to me especially when I have not solicited it. I won't listen to someone like that whether they have 20 jumps or 20,000.

Skydiving is serious business

[davelepka 4]

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What I don't listen to however is when someone gets up on their high horse and starts preaching down to me especially when I have not solicited it. I won't listen to someone like that whether they have 20 jumps or 20,000.

And that is why you're a 'kid' and referred to as such. If you could pull your head out of your ass, you would realize that however the advice is delivered, a guy with 20,000 jumps could tell you something that could potentially save your life. Fuck you if it hurts your feelings, sack up and see the value of the advice.

Do you think an investor would flip-off Warren Buffet if he was handing out free financial advice but wasn't being nice enough about it?

The biggest mistake you're making is that anyone gives two shits about you. More importantly, that gravity, the ground, and reality in general don't give two shits about you. Your feeling don't come into play when you make mistake in the this sport. The moment you leave the plane, you have entered into a 'contract' with gravity to obey it's laws all the way to the ground, and gravity will enforce that contract relentlessly. You do not have the luxury of time, feeling, desires or anything of that sort once you leave the plane, the rules governing your actions and the outcome are carved in stone and there is no room for negotiation.

You are not going to win any battles here. Despite what you think about my opinion, or that of others, there is a factual record of people with your attitude flaunting on this site, and then ending up in the hospital, a wheelchair, or a coffin. There is a written record of people posting in a very similar style and sprit as you, people like me telling them they are wrong, and them ending up in bad shape.

There is a certain amount of credibility that comes with high jump numbers and years in the sport. It is proof positive that you have the ability to survive in this environment, and being able to do that is not a given. A good many people are injured out of the sport, or scared out by a close call. Don't make the mistake of assuming that you are special, and somehow guaranteed survival, success, or anything in this sport. You are not, on all counts.

[Ron 7]

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I said it's something I've perceived in general

And 'in general' young in age, or young in experience people cry about not being taken seriously.

Quote

If you want a good example, look at the OP's post. He specifically mentions "kids" with cameras, but doesn't say anything about "adults." Jump numbers aside, there's a bias against younger jumpers present there, whether the OP realizes it or not. Another example is in the Safety Check article in this month's Parachutist where the author makes a remark about "try[ing] stuff without adult supervision."

'Kids' can refer to young in age, or young in experience. You are getting wrapped around the axle for no reason.

One day I was planning a stunt. I was going to do a Mr Bill then climb on top of my buddies shoulders and while facing forward like a two stack with only one parachute, I was planning on pitching my main and ending up in an instant two stack. One of the old guys I went to for adult supervision said it was a famously stupid idea.

To this day, I call me asking someone with more experience advice 'adult supervision' and I am 40. When I was in the military and giving a block of instruction I would tell the troops "Gather round kids, uncle Ron is gonna talk to you about....." They didn't cry about it. When I am coaching or organizing I often tell the group in my best Chef from South Park voice, "Good morning children". They don't get butt hurt about it either.

You have a personal issue with being considered a kid.... That makes me think you are either:
a. Young
b. Inexperienced
c. a & b

But please, prove me wrong and tell us your age and number of jumps.

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What I don't listen to however is when someone gets up on their high horse and starts preaching down to me especially when I have not solicited it. I won't listen to someone like that whether they have 20 jumps or 20,000

Then your ego will not allow you to get some really good advice. I know plenty of shit hot skydivers that are arrogant.... It does not mean their advice is anything but gold. Sure it does not taste as good as the honey coated type..... But the advice is still good for you.

And BTW.... When you post on here, you HAVE solicited a response.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[-Joey- 0]

davelepka

There is a written record of people posting in a very similar style and sprit as you, people like me telling them they are wrong, and them ending up in bad shape.

Yeah yeah yeah and I need to go watch Sangi's bounce video... already seen it. I'm not planning on initiating any 270's at 200 feet and not pulling out even when the sight picture looks wrong so I think I'm okay there besides that has nothing to do with cameras.

I still stand by my observation that camera-related issues are not a significant contributor to incidents. Just browsing the first couple pages of the incidents forum there are no camera-related issues at all. Just a bunch more no pulls / low cutaways / low turns. This camera thing is being way overblown and the hype is disproportionate to the actual number of incidents.

Skydiving is serious business

[davelepka 4]

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Just browsing the first couple pages of the incidents forum there are no camera-related issues at all.

Not all incidents are reported on DZ.com, more so if they are not fatal or do not include severe injury. Virtually no close-calls are reported on DZ.com.

If you want to hang your hat on the incidents forum as a 'complete' listing of what can go wrong, that's another mistake you are making, and another indicator of your inexperience.

There's a sticky in the video forum of incidents that have been directly tied to camera use, more specifically the 'safer' small format cameras. Again, the list is limited to what people are willing to report and have posted for all the world to see, you can bet that there are a good deal more that will never see the light of day on the internet or in print.

There was a quote at the end of tribute video for a jumper who went in that I think applies here. The fact that the guy went is in not relevant, but the quote was something like, 'The horizon is nothing more that the limit of our sight'. The point being that just because you can't see it in front of your face, doesn't mean that it's not real and something to consider.