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PhreeZone

RSL and two canopies out

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Does anyone know of any incidents caused by not disconneting the RSL before you chop in a 2 canopy out? I've always been taught to just chop and not to worry on a single sided RSL, but I was recentlly told by another person that you have to disconnect it no matter what in order not to cause an issue. Anyone got the real details on this for either single sided ot double sided?
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I agree on a Racer it needs disconnected, but the person I was having the conversation with said specifically one sided RSL's had the issue too, just trying to see which person is right.



It can't hurt to disconnect the RSL, but on a one-sided system it isn't one of your primary worries.

If you have two canopies out, I strongly suggest that you don't simply chop the main while in a stable biplane. There you can go from two good canopies to none in a heartbeat.

Talk to a veteran CRW dog and do some CRW (to include initiating sideplanes on demand) before you even think about including it in your emerrgency procedures.

The time to learn CRW is not when you have two canopies out at 500 feet. I know a couple of people who discovered how to do a downplane that way.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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I've always been taught to just chop and not to worry on a single sided RSL, but I was recentlly told by another person that you have to disconnect it no matter what in order not to cause an issue.



I don't see how a one-sided RSL (or the french dual system) could cause any trouble. Of course it is one more moving part in the equation, but think about it: if you have two canopies out, you have one end of the RSL attached to a main riser, and the other end dangling free. What could it do?



Unless the two-out situation was caused by a CYPRES, which is the cause more often than not I think. I can think of a theoretical way how the RSL could cause the main to snag to the container after a cutaway, but it's pretty far fetched.

The above is just my uninformed opinion, feedback appreciated.

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>RSL's are for students, low time jumpers and people who aren't able to pull their own handles!

Tell that to Rick Horn, AFF course director with 6000+ jumps who could not find his reserve handle, and had his RSL save him.

I've heard this a million times. "Get an AAD if you can't remember to pull!" "You don't need a helmet unless you plan to smash into someone." People still die when they screw up and they have no backups, and none of those people thought they weren't able to pull their handles, or were incompetent.

>I never want an RSL to pull my reserve for me when i chop my main while
> spinning on my back.....from a main malfunction.....

If you ever get into such a situation, and lose altitude awareness due to the nasty spin, that RSL may be the only thing that saves you. Trying to 'get stable' after a cutaway at 500 feet has killed a few people.

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RSL's are for students, low time jumpers and people who aren't able to pull their own handles!



Kinda narrow-minded. I have had my RSL installed on my intentional cutaway/back-up/demo rig before. With the chest mount, it makes it harder to find handles, so having the RSL is a nice back-up. I am not a student (Instructor, in fact), a low time jumper (3200 jumps), nor am I unable to pull my own handles (proved that for the 13th time yesterday, no RSL's on any of those cutaways, nor on any of the 43 intentional cutaways I have).

RSL's have their place, and to brand them as for incompetent or low experienced people is silly. Someone reading your post that has an RSL installed on their rig could very easily take that comment as an insult. I understand if you do not wish to have one installed on your rig, but a lot of different people read these forums with many different circumstances and "one size fits all" definately doesn't apply to skydiving procedures/gear choices/emergency procedures, etc.

Hook

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I watched a jumper with two canopies out chop his main, unfortunately his RSL caught the slider on his reserve and caused him to spin into the ground. This was a VERY experienced and aware jumper.
Just like everything else in this sport, there are pros and cons to every piece of equipment we use.
I use an RSL because I believe the pros outweigh the cons. This jumper pulled very low during a big way attempt. He had very little time to make his choice. I hope to never put myself in that situation. On both my cutaways i think the RSL was helpful even though I didn't need it.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

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don't forget about the incidents where RSL's have killed or injuried



People have mentioned these to me before, but when asked they cannot give me an example (except for Racer RSL's)
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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***RSL's are for students, low time jumpers and people who aren't able to pull their own handles!

Ummmm... Tandemmasters?
(Ah, but they need a drogue to become half way stable, so...)
:P


"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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People have mentioned these to me before, but when asked they cannot give me an example (except for Racer RSL's)



http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=1%2F1%2F2000&MaxDate=31%2F12%2F2000&Country=US&CountryOp=%3D

Fatality #20 for the year 2001- possible/unkown
Fatality #28 for the year 2001
Fatality # 16 for the year 2000
Fatality # 18 for the year 2000
Fatality # 18 for the year 1997

There are advantages and dis-advantages to RSL's. The more you know about them, the better founded your deciscion to jump with one or without one. Don't rely on one person's opinion of them. Research and educate yourself on RSL's, then discuss the issue with experienced jumpers, Instructors, and S & TA's, then decide for yourself

Hook

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Thanks for the post. I've spent hours before pouring over that info befor this. I guess I should just make the point I was hinting at.

It seems that there is a trend for people to consider an RSL as "training wheels" and when they start to belive they are a super-duper wiz bang expert skydiver they have it removed. Perhapse it gives them a feeling of rebelion, or maybe a sense of control because they made a decision about how their gear is going to be set up. Whatever the reason an informed skydiver can make that decision.

Unfortunately I think many remove their RSL due to peer pressure. If (as someone stated) RSL's are only for students, and low timers why are RSL's included on Tandem Gear where you have an (arguably) expert skydiver in comand?

In all of the fatality reports I cannot find any that lead to the RSL being root of the incident. Other than the Racer Style dual RSL I cannot find the RSL has been a contributing factor in a Fatality.

On the other hand there are many instances of Cutaway and NO/LOW reserve pull situations. Now the same situation can result in a Cutaway and CYPRES fire.

The ultimate point is make your own informed decisions, and allow others to make their own. Please people, don't do someone (especialy newer jumpers) the dis-service of raming your opinion down their throats.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>Perhapse it gives them a feeling of rebelion, or maybe a sense of
> control because they made a decision about how their gear is going
> to be set up.

I think it is simply that some jumpers cannot conceive of themselves doing something really stupid. They don't buy a cypres in case they forget to pull; they buy one in case 'they get knocked out' (something presumably beyond their control.) They don't use an RSL because "well, of course I can pull two handles!"

Yet every year we see people doing the same stupid things. They cut away low and cannot find their reserve handles. They start a hook turn too low and cannot recover. They forget to pull and have a cypres firing. I am willing to bet that not a single one of those people got on the plane thinking "Hey, I may not be able to pull my handles! And I may forget to pull." They all thought they could do it. We're all sort of alpha personalities, but we have to remember that we're human, too - and human error will always be the #1 cause of death in this sport.

A cypres or an RSL is a backup against a mistake that could cost you your life. You may or may not decide it's worth it, but no skydiver should be so foolish as to think that they will never make a serious mistake.

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In all of the fatality reports I cannot find any that lead to the RSL being root of the incident. Other than the Racer Style dual RSL I cannot find the RSL has been a contributing factor in a Fatality.



I am not trying to bash RSL's, but go to the fatalities web page and look at the fatalities I pointed out. They have been a contributing factor, if not the cause of fatalities before. The question is which risk is greater? What is best for each individual jumper. Not all jumpers are the same and an RSL may or may not make sense for each individual jumper.

Hook

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On the other hand there are many instances of Cutaway and NO/LOW reserve pull situations. Now the same situation can result in a Cutaway and CYPRES fire.


Needless to say that a Cypress is something completely different than an RSL!!!

An AAD wil not help you after a low cutaway (which you should never do, but some others do em anyway)
An RSL wil not help if you don't pull anything yourself. (I always pull, yeah, right, some others didn't)

Make an informed decission, but few people have an excuse NOT to use an AAD and an RSL...

Just cameramen, SkySurfers an CReW Jumpers have an excuse to leave the RSL unconnected.
When in a spinning mal on a highly loaded canopy, you may want to take a few seconds to get stable (if you have the time -and altitude awareness-), but remember that the spinning mode on those canopies burns altitude FAST and can screw-up your altitude awareness!!!, maybe an RSL can save you, or it can kill you...
I think that in a serious spin, the Cypres wil fire before the RSL becomes a life-saving factor (and you better cutaway first!!!)

I cannot think of any reason not to use an AAD... (I know, made about 750 jumps without AAD, but there is a Cypres in my rig now!!!, hope I don't splash while swooping the pond (or the North Sea...)).

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RSL debate again?!!!
This topic is like a merry-go-round. Poping every two months.

I started skydiving in 1968 and SCUBA in 1971. Equipment was simple and not really that reliable. The sports were small in participants because they were restricted to those with the skill, talent and balls to do them. Now the wonder of science has allowed the half-wits, stoners and incompetents to enter our sport. Look at the fatality reports...technology advance is giving us diminishing returns.

There is a solution to the increased number of fatalities...stay in the airplane!
"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

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RSL debate again?!!!
This topic is like a merry-go-round. Poping every two months.

I started skydiving in 1968 and SCUBA in 1971. Equipment was simple and not really that reliable. The sports were small in participants because they were restricted to those with the skill, talent and balls to do them. Now the wonder of science has allowed the half-wits, stoners and incompetents to enter our sport. Look at the fatality reports...technology advance is giving us diminishing returns. reply]

I started SCUBA in 1968, parachuting in 1971, and have seen what you describe.

I say let Darwinian selection prevail. Safety equipment precludes natural selection.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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I say let Darwinian selection prevail. Safety equipment precludes natural selection.



You know those are my thoughts exactly, however they are tempered by the knowlage that if people keep bouncing, sooner rather than later some goverment agency is going to start protecting me from myself!

I want my own planet. You're all invited.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>I say let Darwinian selection prevail.

And yet you also say that you are tired of cleaning up the results of that process. I don't think you can have it both ways.



You are, of course, right - I don't really want anyone to bounce or femur. If I really felt ill will toward someone, at worst I'd hope they'd choke on a chicken bone.

The sort of selection I prefer isn't Darwinian at all. It is people who opt out of the sport when they discover to their horror that it isn't as safe as they had convinced themselves, and would have done themselves a favor by opting to do for something for which they were temprementally suited in the first place.

If they think the color-coordinated gear with all the latest gizmos makes the sport as safe as high tea and they stick around, - they are in for a rude awakening.

I think there's a balance to be struck between the warm, fuzzy feeling that gets some people into the sport and the live fast-pull low-date your rigger's wife death-wish mentality to which some gravitate. Blissful denial and embracing the real and present danger that comes with hurling yourself bodily out of an aircraft some miles up are not the only options.

In any event, you didn't have people freaking out and selling their gear, never to be seen again, when somebody bounced in the bad old days. People given to that reaction when subjected to a dose of nasty reality would be better off drifting away from the sport before they are traumatized by a nearby incident.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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